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The people who are grounded in the Fallen World should be sneered at by more ethereal-minded mages, though, and people who play characters like that are probably going for that sort of notion. There's a whole thing about that kind of philosophical divide.
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Apr 20, 2014 22:38
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Mendrian posted:Right. If anything, Chemistry background just gives you enough real-world knowledge to know that yes, there is a substance that explodes on contact with air (or water, or with Nitrogen, or whatever). I would never deny a player the right to invent such a substance if they lacked the appropriate chemical knowledge but they might never think of it in the first place otherwise. Would you allow them to do more Bashing/Lethal/Agg damage than is initially proposed by the system? Because the system does have a way to expose Fallen chemistry as mere parlor tricks compared to the Supernal Truth that is Blue Prime Laser Beams
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Apr 20, 2014 22:40
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Cabbit posted:The people who are grounded in the Fallen World should be sneered at by more ethereal-minded mages, though, and people who play characters like that are probably going for that sort of notion. There's a whole thing about that kind of philosophical divide. Sure, and there are definitely tons of characters who you could play as turning their back on the self-aggrandising idiocy of the Atlantis-botherers - I'm just having trouble thinking of one who'd have the interesting story you suggest and then turn round and say 'oh, and I transmute the air around the Seer's head to phosphoric acid'.
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Apr 20, 2014 22:46
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:Sure, and there are definitely tons of characters who you could play as turning their back on the self-aggrandising idiocy of the Atlantis-botherers - I'm just having trouble thinking of one who'd have the interesting story you suggest and then turn round and say 'oh, and I transmute the air around the Seer's head to phosphoric acid'. So do Shield Spells not actually work in your games, or do you let Time masters kill people's grandfathers?
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Apr 20, 2014 22:52
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:The 'Matter = SCIENCE
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Apr 20, 2014 22:54
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My experience with playing a Mage with forces and matter felt like I was spending all campaign coming up with fun, creative uses of my arcana that rarely really felt like they'd be of much use against many of the problems we were dealing with.
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Apr 20, 2014 23:12
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Matter is not a 'worse' Arcana than the other Arcanum and I don't really think it's fair to speculate that it's somehow more 'base' than other Arcana either. I can definitely see a character or a faction that thinks this way but it's not really supported by the system. Matter is no more 'mundane' than Forces, for instance, or Life. They all deal with things that are normally (and clearly) governed by the real-world science. The difference is that the Supernal Truth speculates that all substances are basically the same and are ability to differentiate and categorize them is merely a matter of utilizing the base stuff of the universe via act of will. One of the things that makes Matter fun for me - and annoying for other people - is that it is a tool you can use to creatively manipulate the environment. It's a fun way to get from point A to point B by cleverly altering the world around you. Unfortunately, turning a wall into Styrofoam is cool but it's easier to just teleport inside. Turning the air into ether or turning water into acid is pretty brutal, but Mind can just declare someone is unconscious and Death can just make somebody dead. I hope that nobody sees this discrepancy and presumes that, in-universe, most people 'know' Matter is a 'weak' Arcanum and therefor put up their nose at it. Supernal truth is supernal truth and I tend to think characters pursue those things not because it makes it easier to finish chapters in somebody's story but because it's a field that they find interesting. Otherwise everybody in the universe would just take up Mind.
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Apr 20, 2014 23:23
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That's why Mage absolutely needs ruthlessly unified spell resolution mechanics. Matter might be messier at killing people quickly than Mind or Death, but it shouldn't simultaneously be worse at it. Technically, of course, Matter is baser than other Arcana. Specifically, than the five other Arcana of Prime, Fate, Mind, Spirit, and Death.
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Apr 20, 2014 23:26
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Ferrinus posted:That's why Mage absolutely needs ruthlessly unified spell resolution mechanics. Matter might be messier at killing people quickly than Mind or Death, but it shouldn't simultaneously be worse at it. It is literally more base but I don't think it's a character flaw if you study it.
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Apr 20, 2014 23:27
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WINNERSH TRIANGLE posted:Sure, and there are definitely tons of characters who you could play as turning their back on the self-aggrandising idiocy of the Atlantis-botherers - I'm just having trouble thinking of one who'd have the interesting story you suggest and then turn round and say 'oh, and I transmute the air around the Seer's head to phosphoric acid'. But "Oh, and I throw a bolt of lightning/supernal fire/MIND BULLETS; that's TELEKINESIS, Kyle!/spooky scary skeletons at the Seer" is somehow more compelling?
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Apr 21, 2014 00:44
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Cabbit posted:But "Oh, and I throw a bolt of lightning/supernal fire/MIND BULLETS; that's TELEKINESIS, Kyle!/spooky scary skeletons at the Seer" is somehow more compelling?
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Apr 21, 2014 01:09
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I guess I'm just seeing different twists on using magic to nuke a guy, and not that.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:12
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Down With People posted:That's honestly my favourite part about Vampire. The bad guys you'll be fighting in most Vampire games are other vampires - not even 'evil' vampires, just other vampires like you, caught up in a horrific political system that rewards the most powerful, efficient predator. There's no end goal or purpose that could be construed as good, since all vampire societies revolve around enabling vampires to safely kill, eat and enslave whoever they want (while preventing less fortunate vampires from doing the same). A really, really good vampire still eats and sometimes kills people as a way of life. That said, the result is that Vampire seems to have a sort of "midlife crisis" point built into it that triggers if the PCs are allowed some breathing room after they achieve a stable political position and don't pursue selfish motivations of their own accord.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:17
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Different flavors of nuking a guy never really felt like the issue. It's more that you have some arcana that feel purpose built to drive plots and deal with crazy ephemeral bullshit, and some arcana that don't seem to work too well outside of screwing with mortals and overcoming "mundane" challenges.
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Apr 21, 2014 01:25
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Cabbit posted:I guess I'm just seeing different twists on using magic to nuke a guy, and not that. I think the problem with this "chlorine trifluoride" thing is that it doesn't really add anything to the story. The only difference between saying "I summon chlorine trifluoride" instead of "I summon poisonous acidic poo poo" is that summoning chlorine trifluoride is a way of saying "I Am Displaying Knowledge" to the rest of the table. The idea that displaying knowledge is an end in itself - regardless of its usefulness or relevance - is what makes it nerd poo poo.
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Apr 21, 2014 02:10
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Well heaven forbid our game of pretend wizards gets nerdy, such that somebody summons a poisonous gas instead of merely some poisonous gas.
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Apr 21, 2014 02:15
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Cabbit posted:Well heaven forbid our game of pretend wizards gets nerdy, such that somebody summons a poisonous gas instead of merely some poisonous gas. Yes, exactly! It's really lovely when something that's supposed to be fun and creative bogs down with a bunch of nerds getting into an unpleasant pissing contest over weird unrelated trivia.
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Apr 21, 2014 02:26
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I don't see where the pissing contest comes in, unless for some reason somebody is going to dispute the guy's preference in caustic substances out of, I dunno, brand loyalty or something. The dude nukes a guy with name brand acid, rather than the generic Kroger acid. Where's the confrontation?
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Apr 21, 2014 02:28
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tatankatonk posted:Yes, exactly! It's really lovely when something that's supposed to be fun and creative bogs down with a bunch of nerds getting into an unpleasant pissing contest over weird unrelated trivia. Cabbit posted:I don't see where the pissing contest comes in, unless for some reason somebody is going to dispute the guy's preference in caustic substances out of, I dunno, brand loyalty or something. The dude nukes a guy with name brand acid, rather than the generic Kroger acid. Where's the confrontation? I think the pissing contest comes in when someone insists "This is how it works in real life *points at wikipedia* so this is how it should work in the game!!" as if how something works in real life should necessarily influence how something works in a story.
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Apr 21, 2014 02:32
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What idiot is suggesting doing that? Don't game with pedantic dopes who constantly try to reinvent the rules on the fly.
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Apr 21, 2014 02:33
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Cabbit posted:What idiot is suggesting doing that? Obviously no one, but that's the problem we're talking about. "It works like this in (my model of) real life so it should work like this in the game!" The fact that chlorine trifluoride works the way it does in real life is the basis on which it's brought into games, therefore the people who introduce it insisting it 'should' work how it does in real life could well be a problem.
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Apr 21, 2014 02:37
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Suggestion: failing the ClF3 transmutation roll showers the target in chlorinated and fluoridated water instead
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Apr 21, 2014 02:41
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Is the "this is how it works in real life" argument ever actually an issue for anyone running a game? Don't you just remind them that magic doesn't work in real life, and so the cause and effect between it and the game is going to be tenuous at best, before they sit down and feel like a dope?
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Apr 21, 2014 02:42
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Cabbit posted:Is the "this is how it works in real life" argument ever actually an issue for anyone running a game? Don't you just remind them that magic doesn't work in real life, and so the cause and effect between it and the game is going to be tenuous at best, before they sit down and feel like a dope? This. Also applicable to the dickwaving over who's a plebe for using whichever Arcana everyone decides they don't like this month. Magic doesn't actually exist, who cares if I do 5L from a Matter, Mind, or Space spell?
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Apr 21, 2014 02:53
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Cabbit posted:Is the "this is how it works in real life" argument ever actually an issue for anyone running a game? Don't you just remind them that magic doesn't work in real life, and so the cause and effect between it and the game is going to be tenuous at best, before they sit down and feel like a dope? I've never encountered it but yeah, it probably is. While I'm on this I want to talk about Dragonsbreath shells. Dragonsbreath shells are the chlorine trifluoride of shotguns. Error 404 posted:*Responding to thing about shotguns and fire* Pope Guilty posted:Eh, maybe he just wants to be able to fire his gun again. Just because this fire-shotgun thing ruins shotguns in real life doesn't mean they have to ruin fictional shotguns! I like both these posters, but this is just one of those "I Am Displaying Knowledge" "I Am Displaying Knowledge About Your Knowledge" conversations and it shits me that you can't just say "it's a story" and have as many white phosphorous shotgun shells or whatever as you like! Edit: Actually Error 404 isn't really doing that much.
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Apr 21, 2014 02:56
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Yeah, I was trying to be funny there, but I can see how that came off dickish. I was mostly riffing on the whole  "must choose between fire or shotguns!" "why not choose both!"Edit: also the idea of a dude strapped with a bunch of single-use shotguns under his trenchcoat is both funny and peak wod. Error 404 fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Apr 21, 2014 |
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Apr 21, 2014 02:59
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Error 404 posted:Yeah, I was trying to be funny there, but I can see how that came off dickish. No no! It was fine, I'm the dick here. I'm just thinking in public. My point is that the game should only resemble reality insofar as it makes the game more fun, and firebreathing shotguns are a good example of that.
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Apr 21, 2014 03:05
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I have to admit that my favorite power in all of the old WoD is the Correspondence Sphere. It's useful for everything and that's before you start being able to appear in more than one place at once.
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Apr 21, 2014 11:16
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Effectronica posted:Suggestion: failing the ClF3 transmutation roll showers the target in chlorinated and fluoridated water instead Just a quick reminder - Thanks to all the stories about what flouridated water does, Matter mages can literally control people's thoughts (but only in ways that make them more communist).
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Apr 21, 2014 20:02
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Weaponized Vaccines give you Autism.
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Apr 21, 2014 20:10
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Error 404 posted:Weaponized Vaccines give you Autism.
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Apr 21, 2014 20:26
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Yessod posted:Just a quick reminder - Thanks to all the stories about what flouridated water does, Matter mages can literally control people's thoughts (but only in ways that make them more communist).
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Apr 21, 2014 20:35
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Outta curiosity, has anyone here played a high humanity score vampire ever? Like 9 or 10? Reading Blood and Smoke makes me think it must be drat near impossible to reach or maintain.
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Apr 21, 2014 21:05
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crime fighting hog posted:Outta curiosity, has anyone here played a high humanity score vampire ever? Like 9 or 10? Reading Blood and Smoke makes me think it must be drat near impossible to reach or maintain. It's not easy and depending on who you ask, might be impossible. Your ST needs to have a liberal interpretation of 'harm' since feeding causes Lethal damage on mortals and animals. Assuming you get past that hurdle you need to have a steady supply of vessels who are completely willing to let you feed from them*, but whom you care for enough to make the relationship at least net neutral, if not completely beneficial for the vessel. Then you have to not spend Vitae, ever, except to get out of bed or else you risk frenzy down the line. It's hard but assuming you can do that it's not really difficult to maintain. You do become insanely vulnerable though if you're looking to maintain that score for any length of time. EDIT: *This is especially difficult since finding willing vessels pretty much necessitates breaking the Masquerade on some level.
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Apr 21, 2014 21:10
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We've got a max-Humanity vampire in our game, which means someone who suffers psychological turmoil and potential slide into monstrosity just by, like... punching someone really hard, or stealing someone's car. It's gotten her some cred with the Circle of the Crone, but at the same time complicated her relationship with the Lancea Sanctum because they told her they'd only teach her some sorcery if she were to sin and she couldn't bring herself to do so. Thus far she's been careful and circumspect enough to not, say, kill a mark in the throes of hunger frenzy, but who knows how long that'll last.
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Apr 21, 2014 21:27
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So when are you going to take away her Paladin powers and her Unicorn mount?
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Apr 21, 2014 21:30
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Ferrinus posted:We've got a max-Humanity vampire in our game, which means someone who suffers psychological turmoil and potential slide into monstrosity just by, like... punching someone really hard, or stealing someone's car. It's gotten her some cred with the Circle of the Crone, but at the same time complicated her relationship with the Lancea Sanctum because they told her they'd only teach her some sorcery if she were to sin and she couldn't bring herself to do so. Are you using the old humanity system where petty theft is somehow an inhuman act?
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Apr 22, 2014 00:23
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GoatLord posted:Are you using the old humanity system where petty theft is somehow an inhuman act? Nah, we've got a five step scale that's been in use for basically ever: quote:5 — physically injuring someone, stealing or destroying something of great sentimental value, emotionally damaging someone You can shoplift and stay at Humanity 5, but not, like, steal a little stall owner's inventory.
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Apr 22, 2014 00:35
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GoatLord posted:Are you using the old humanity system where petty theft is somehow an inhuman act? Even more inhuman than assault: if I remember correctly, a character starting at Humanity 7 could beat someone into a coma with no moral quandary but if they stole their victim's wallet afterwards it's time to degenerate.
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Apr 22, 2014 01:42
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Ferrinus posted:Nah, we've got a five step scale that's been in use for basically ever: So somebody at the absolute pinnacle of human morality (apparently) get away with theft? You could swipe $50 out of the wallet of one of your middle class friends without any problem?  Edit: '"Rough" Torture'?
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Apr 22, 2014 02:58
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