|
Glad this series is getting the attention it deserves, even if it must be way more difficult to work through than a regular series.
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 03:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 19:59 |
|
|
More album updates: http://imgur.com/a/iaymY I might give these pages a once-over to see if there are any oddities. I like to try to form the language to be as dramatic as possible when necessary, but I hope I don't overdo it. I'm loving the math talk as well, concerning the concepts of infinity and whether a universe exists where Yukari can be saved. Infinity is a tricky concept as it can almost seem to contradict itself sometimes. For example, by the concept of infinity, there must be exist at least one universe where Yukari is saved. However, by that same concept, there exist an infinite amount of universes where she is potentially not saved. Given Gaku's inability to have some sort of way to search beyond brute force, there exists the probability that Gaku will forever get it wrong because there is always a potential that she will pick an incorrect universe. The key factor that I think is missing is time, which Gaku does not have an infinite amount of, or at least is something which is not fundamentally reachable. The old phrase "one monkey at a typewriter, given an infinite amount of time, will eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare" comes to mind. As long as Gaku does not have an infinite amount of time, there is no way to 100 percent guarantee that she will eventually find the one universe where Yukari is saved, and an infinite amount of time is an unattainable concept. To sum it all up, keep Gaku away from any gambling games, as she does not seem to have the greatest luck.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 06:56
|
|
|
FutureCop posted:To sum it all up, keep Gaku away from any gambling games, as she does not seem to have the greatest luck. Hey, she got magical princess powers, transformation sequence and all. That might not be a jackpot, but it's something.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 07:37
|
|
|
FutureCop posted:The key factor that I think is missing is time, which Gaku does not have an infinite amount of, or at least is something which is not fundamentally reachable. The old phrase "one monkey at a typewriter, given an infinite amount of time, will eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare" comes to mind. As long as Gaku does not have an infinite amount of time, there is no way to 100 percent guarantee that she will eventually find the one universe where Yukari is saved, and an infinite amount of time is an unattainable concept. I would argue that she does have something just as useful as an infinite amount of time, which is that time doesn't even affect the ability to contact a new universe. Every time she contacts a new universe time is reset to whenever she contacted them (and now she can apparently go further back). Therefore she has effectively infinite time by combining the amount of time she has in all these universes. As long as she can keep traveling to new universes, she can keep looking for the one where Yukari is saved, and there's no indication that something can stop her ability at this point in time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 09:52
|
|
|
Chinaman7000 posted:Glad this series is getting the attention it deserves, even if it must be way more difficult to work through than a regular series. It's not quite as bad as people might think. The whole thing has furigana which makes it waaaaay easier to look stuff up. I think most of the really hard physics stuff was covered a few chapters back. It's mostly just the weird pronoun stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 11:12
|
|
|
Agreed posted:The title is a funny play on words, too, since qualia don't exist but we really, really feel like they do (but they don't, which follows necessarily if you're a materialist and agree that the brain is made of matter, anyway; not even the most ardent P&M-state philosophers of mind have been able to hold onto their arguments very well there, with many of them just outright acknowledging that they were flawed from the start, like poor Frank and his question about what Mary knows)... That seems off to me. Are there materialists who aren't empiricists? All empirical information is mediated by qualia. It would be safer to say that only qualia exist. Also, I just made the connection between Gaku's obsession and qualia. Ordinarily, we are forced to share our experience of the world (qualia) with others. We can never know if our experience of any given stimulus matches that of another person, but we can find commonalities through which to communicate. Yukari is the ultimate example of the benefits which follow: she perceives humans through a radically different set of qualia than anyone else, but this difference in perception is extremely useful. Gaku wishes to preserve the unique qualia of her bond with Yukari, but in doing by depending solely on the experiences of alternate selves who share her qualia, she is essentially retreating into her own personal universe. It could be that her inability to "save" Yukari is the result of her losing the ability to harmonize her qualia with that of other people- at the most basic level, her ability to empathize. Yukari is the only person she wishes to interact with, but she cannot form new experiences which rely on a connection with another person because she has lost that capacity. This manifests as being unable to find a universe in which new experiences with Yukari are possible. Edit: The wikipedia article on purple makes what may be a mistake by equating spectral colours with real colours. The article on imaginary colours includes any mixture of two spectral colours in the category of real colours. Other non-spectral colours include black, white, grey, and pink. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jun 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 12:06
|
|
|
FutureCop posted:The old phrase "one monkey at a typewriter, given an infinite amount of time, will eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare" comes to mind. As long as Gaku does not have an infinite amount of time, there is no way to 100 percent guarantee that she will eventually find the one universe where Yukari is saved, and an infinite amount of time is an unattainable concept. Actually, the saying goes "infinitely many monkeys will produce the works of Shakespeare". The truth of the matter is, according to the laws of probability, as long as you have infinitely many monkeys, you will produce the works of Shakespeare instantly. In fact, Wikipedia has written about this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 14:03
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Actually, the saying goes "infinitely many monkeys will produce the works of Shakespeare". The truth of the matter is, according to the laws of probability, as long as you have infinitely many monkeys, you will produce the works of Shakespeare instantly. In fact, Wikipedia has written about this. That's a very good point, and I wasn't sure phrase which would suit the situation in the story better. The reason I opted for "one monkey with infinite time" instead of "infinite monkeys" was because I think it reflects on how they are writing Gaku. Gaku seems to be operating in a series: going through one experience, failing, then trying again, over and over. This is different from if she was operating in parallel, where there are many Gakus operating independently of Gaku-prime to reach the solution. However, this could simply be because it's how the story is presented to us in layman's terms, and in actuality she is operating in parallel. It's very hard to get a good grasp of how she perceives time, herself, and the world, and the story plays with this constantly by switching points of view. I imagine in the end Gaku throws away all concept of "ego" and "being" in order to stretch her consciousness across the universe, approaching singularity or something crazy like that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 14:44
|
|
|
I'm actually not really clear myself what happens when Gaku dies, or abandons a world. When she messed up killing Alice, did she just jump back in time, or did a Gaku rot in jail?
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 14:58
|
|
|
If we're dealing with Many Worlds(not sure we are) then yeah, those things did happen to her. That reality doesn't cease to be just because she moves on, if that is what you mean.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 15:26
|
|
|
Dr_Amazing posted:I'm actually not really clear myself what happens when Gaku dies, or abandons a world. When she messed up killing Alice, did she just jump back in time, or did a Gaku rot in jail? If I understand correctly, neither, though it's closer to the first than the second. Gaku has the ability to access other Gaku's from alternate realities, and when she finds the alternate reality where she gets what she wants (Alice is dead, JAUNT is destroyed, or most importatly, Yukari lives) she is going to 'collapse' all the different realities into that particular reality. It's like saving and loading a game. So when she finds the reality where she manages to kill Alice, she abandons the reality where she messed up and had to go to jail. And THEN when she realized infiltrating JAUNT and killing Alice won't help her to save Yukari, she abandons all the realities where she attempts to infiltrate JAUNT, as if she never infiltrated JAUNT at all. It's sort of like turning back time, except it's technically not. ...At least I think that's what's going on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 15:29
|
|
|
My understanding was that when one Gaku contacts another, both immediately gain all of each other's knowledge and memories. When the story perspective switches from one reality or time to another it's not because Gaku crossed dimensions or travelled in time, we just switched to following a different Gaku, who has all the same memories and skills as the one we were following before plus whatever else she already had. Edit: I'm not sure how to explain what happens when she dies. We saw five-year-old Gaku "remembering" teleporting herself into a wall, and that seems like it'd be too sudden a death for her to have passed that knowledge on to another Gaku before dying. Suaimhneas fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Jun 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 15:40
|
|
|
FutureCop posted:It's very hard to get a good grasp of how she perceives time, herself, and the world, and the story plays with this constantly by switching points of view. I imagine in the end Gaku throws away all concept of "ego" and "being" in order to stretch her consciousness across the universe, approaching singularity or something crazy like that. Spoiler for untranslated chapters (chapter 17) That's one of the possibilities that actually worked, but Yukari didn't like it, so Gaku has to start over again 
Tamba fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jun 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 15:44
|
|
|
    I think at this point either another set of Gakus or someone with the same power is undermining all her attempts. Maybe in the future Yukari starts world war 3 or something.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 15:51
|
|
|
So the thing with time being inmutable is true on Gaku's universe...until she finds a way to broke that too. It was very cute how happy Gaku was with the kiss though 
Dark_Tzitzimine fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jun 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 16:08
|
|
|
Sure does remind me of Steins;Gate and its treatment of world lines. Despite having even more control and power than Okabe did Gaku is still seemingly bound by the convergences of her branches.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 16:11
|
|
|
Had a wild thought. What if it's the Gakus in the universes where she got the power, but decided not to waste her time on Yukari after learning of the seeming-inevitability of her death, or due to some undiscovered knowledge, decided to set herself to the task of stopping Gaku Prime from saving Yukari? It's conceivable that, of the infinite number of Gakus that could exist, some could disagree with Gaku's plan. Others might not have even fallen in love with Yukari in the first place. After all, there is nothing that necessarily compels the other Gakus to agree to the Gaku Prime plan, it simply depends on fortune that all the Gakus contacted happen to be on the same "wavelength" of thought.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 16:14
|
|
|
DrSunshine posted:Had a wild thought. What if it's the Gakus in the universes where she got the power, but decided not to waste her time on Yukari after learning of the seeming-inevitability of her death, or due to some undiscovered knowledge, decided to set herself to the task of stopping Gaku Prime from saving Yukari? It's conceivable that, of the infinite number of Gakus that could exist, some could disagree with Gaku's plan. Others might not have even fallen in love with Yukari in the first place. After all, there is nothing that necessarily compels the other Gakus to agree to the Gaku Prime plan, it simply depends on fortune that all the Gakus contacted happen to be on the same "wavelength" of thought. I think they addressed this when they introduced a dissenting Gaku who Gaku Prime nonchalantly metaphorically shot in the head. She can will out of existence disagreeing Gaku's?
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 16:17
|
|
|
Nice to see no matter what happens, Gaku will always escalate things! It's like a comforting fact of (manga) life. Gotta wonder where things go from here in this chapter though, yet another cliffhanger end. And yeah, that kiss was pretty cute, haha.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 16:22
|
|
|
She just needs to pull a Hal Jordan/Father Pucci and rebuild the universe from the beginning with the proper variables. Simple!
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 17:38
|
|
|
Maybe Gaku Prime's collective is comprised entirely of Gakus who are searching for a way to save Yukari - in other words, Gakus for whom Yukari dies - therefore, the only Gaku capable of saving Yukari is one outside of the collective.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 18:29
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I think they addressed this when they introduced a dissenting Gaku who Gaku Prime nonchalantly metaphorically shot in the head. She can will out of existence disagreeing Gaku's? Yes, but that's only the ones that speak up. I'm thinking the rebel Gaku faction is working in secret, telling the people who need to know what they need to know. And let's be honest here, the more people Magical Multiple Girl Mana Chan kills as publicly as she does, the harder the governmental pushback is going to be.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 18:47
|
|
|
SwissArmyDruid posted:Yes, but that's only the ones that speak up. I'm thinking the rebel Gaku faction is working in secret, telling the people who need to know what they need to know. There can't be a rebel Gaku faction doing that unless someone else has the same power she does. Each world/timeline has only one Gaku, so there can't be another Gaku interfering, and any information a rebel Gaku might give to the targets in her world wouldn't be transferable to Magical Multiple Girls Mana Chans' worlds' targets. chumbler fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jun 9, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 18:51
|
|
|
chumbler posted:There can't be a rebel Gaku faction doing that unless someone else has the same power she does. Each world/timeline has only one Gaku, so there can't be another Gaku interfering, and any information a rebel Gaku might give to the targets in her world wouldn't be transferable to Magical Multiple Girls Mana Chans' worlds' targets. We've gotten to the point of quantum immortality. Are we really going to rule out interdimensional travel? =P
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 19:24
|
|
|
chumbler posted:There can't be a rebel Gaku faction doing that unless someone else has the same power she does. Each world/timeline has only one Gaku, so there can't be another Gaku interfering, and any information a rebel Gaku might give to the targets in her world wouldn't be transferable to Magical Multiple Girls Mana Chans' worlds' targets. I don't know. While it may not make sense quantum mechanically, it does seem like Gaku is messing herself up in some way. It could be something as simple as one of the Gaku's hating Yukari for making her cell phone into a new arm, or having undergone more significant injury or trauma after the early kidnapping, and then reaching out to find other similar-minded Gaku's in the infini-verse to repeatedly kill Yukari. At this point, the only character we've seen that can possibly interfere with Gaku to this extent is Gaku. The alternative is a steins;gate esque "the world-line says she dies" situation, which I doubt will be the case. Some of the best time travel stories involve a character messing with him or herself in the past, and I don't see why this can't be the case here, just extended to quantum mechanics so it's even more  than time travel.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 20:47
|
|
|
Well Gaku you tried so hard and since violence seems to help at least a little obviously the best answer is more psychotic murders.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 20:49
|
|
|
You know, Gaku, if everybody on Earth except you and Yukari was gone, nobody could hurt her. Just something to think about.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 21:02
|
|
|
I still prefer to think of this manga as a sort of meta-narrative. We are reading a narrative about all sort of different ways another narrative could go, and more or less having the narrator getting stuck in a thought pattern. Some paths of the inner story get explored in greater detail, some get a single frame, and some barely even get a word but are still implied as considered. Yes, this is pretty much just making an analogy between quantum mechanics and literary methods, but I think it works as an explanation for why we see the story we do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 21:05
|
|
|
I'm starting to think that the big issue here is she's skirting around the central reason that Yukari keeps getting targeted.. I mean Jaunt clearly didn't form because 5 strangers met in a bar, it formed because all these powers started becoming known and people in the know felt that the powers needed to be controlled. That's why another organization will simply pop up if the others are never created. The need to control is still there as long as the powers are known about. She removes the result but not the reason the result happened. It's the same with Yukari dying. The one incident tying all the timelines together is the murder attempt, that incident somehow put Yukari's power on the map. Before that she isn't targeted at all but shortly after Jaunt starts sending recruiters and ultimately assassins her way. It's clearly them sending the assassins as Gaku got offed too when she killed too many of their recruiters. There are clearly a lot of people that feels that Yukari needs to die because of her power to build and rebuild life. That's why Gakus endless attempts never changed the outcome earlier. She only traveled back to the point where she got the phone. At that point it was already too late and the damage was already done. The only way I see this ending is with Yukari living in complete anonymity for her entire life, Gaku erasing the powers or by Gaku essentially ending humanity. Pulling out the root of the issue so to speak. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 21:33
|
|
|
Xoidanor posted:
Or convincing Yukari to get strong enough to defend herself and Make an army of gunpla bodyguards
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 21:52
|
|
|
Pyronic posted:Or convincing Yukari to get strong enough to defend herself and Make an army of gunpla bodyguards Then we would skip shady organizations trying to kill her and go straight to actual armies going after her. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 21:57
|
|
|
Sindai posted:You know, Gaku, if everybody on Earth except you and Yukari was gone, nobody could hurt her. Just something to think about. I keep waiting to see the one Gaku who exterminates every other human in the world, then just when she and Yukari finally settle down together, Yukari slips on a banana peel and breaks her neck. Or an alien lands, blasts Yukari, then leaves.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 21:59
|
|
|
Zenzirouj posted:I keep waiting to see the one Gaku who exterminates every other human in the world, then just when she and Yukari finally settle down together, Yukari slips on a banana peel and breaks her neck. Or an alien lands, blasts Yukari, then leaves. Not gonna lie, I'd like to see Gaku on roaring rampage of revenge against fruits or going full Galactus.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 22:07
|
|
|
Gaku will massacre the entire planet and leave nothing but a barren, rotting mound of rock as she and Yukari leave on the first intergalactic spaceship she built herself using her time loving abilities. But then they will be attacked by aliens and Yukari will die any way. This will occur next chapter.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 22:24
|
|
|
^I think you mean "in the first 10 pages of next chapter. Then it gets serious"
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 22:52
|
|
|
True to the nature of the story dealing with multiple universes, this series will cross every genre before it ends. We've had yuri, murder mystery, supernatural mystery, high school shenanigans, an assassin story, and now magical girl and splatter. Soon we'll probably have an apocalyptic story and then a space one after that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 22:58
|
|
|
We gotta get some sportsmanga in there somewhere. Finding out the terrible secret of Yukari's many deaths lies at the end of the international womens' lacrosse tournament.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2014 23:27
|
|
|
Alopex posted:We gotta get some sportsmanga in there somewhere. Finding out the terrible secret of Yukari's many deaths lies at the end of the international womens' lacrosse tournament. No, it'll definitely be a game of Cricket rather than lacrosse. Also, a buddy cop segment where Tactical Espionage Gaku and Magical Girl Gaku (at the very least) team up will have to happen at some point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2014 00:46
|
|
|
Album update: http://imgur.com/a/iaymY I really think this should be the thread title.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2014 04:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 19:59 |
|
|
FutureCop posted:Album update: http://imgur.com/a/iaymY It's kind of a spoiler, but I approve.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2014 04:47
|
|
