Kerbal Space Program: Hardware Rich Combustion

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cool new Metroid game: Oct 7, 2009; hail satan

no you're just really loving dumb

# ? Jun 12, 2014 11:57

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# ? Jun 14, 2024 11:48

Klyith: Aug 3, 2007; GBS Pledge Week

Megadyptes posted:

no you're just really loving dumb

And I thought that guy who argued that girl kerbals should come in burqas was an idiot. At least that dude was coherent.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 12:19

Splode: Jun 18, 2013; put some clothes on you little freak

What's with the recent surge in awful dumbasses in this thread?

# ? Jun 12, 2014 12:38

Mistle: Oct 11, 2005; Eckot's comic relief cousin from out of town; Grimey Drawer

SocketSeven posted:

What I'm trying to say is that We can do a hell of a lot better the "standard open-source" method of "ITS SAFE TO USE BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE PROBABLY MAYBE POSSIBLY LOOKED AT IT AT SOME POINT IN HISTORY BUT PROBABLY NOT! SO IT'S TOTALLY SAFE YOU SEE!"

"Lets close our eyes and hope someone else does the boring and hard work" did not work for OpenSSL, One of the bedrock foundations of security on the internet, used by multibillion dollar corporations.

Nobody bothered to audit the code. Gaping security holes existed for years.

KSP is a game. It's plugins have not nearly as much power to wreak havoc, and far fewer eyes are looking at them.

Perhaps "well you can just look at the source" is a completely invalid way of auditing code, and if Squad wants to avoid a fiasco of someone slipping a bitcoin mining program into their game, they are going to have to pick a new way of figuring out if code is malicious or not.

"More eyes can look at it, and that makes it more secure" is a bullshit argument. It's time for it to die forever. Perhaps it's off topic, but i'm sick of developers using that line of bullshit in general, not with just KSP.

There's literally an aggregate malware scanner on the internet, it uses p much all the decent scanners, and tells you the result. Or you can run them individually. It's what hackers, cheaters, pirates, and coders use to ensure that their content on a website is safe to run.

Open sourcing does wonders for auditing codes; it means having more eye under the hood in case something catches fire :iiaca:

, and why closed coding asshats get frustrated when people touch their bits and bytes(news: plenty of people are competent at coding, but a few of those are actually capable of efficient coding), because there's a mountain of difference between coding something to work, and coding something to work well--and the internet is full of people that complain and do little else, whether they add something to it or not.

You're not doing a very good job of "the internet".

# ? Jun 12, 2014 12:41

Bhodi: Dec 9, 2007; Oh, it's just a cat.; Pillbug

Shut up shut up I read this thread to ESCAPE from work.

Everyone knows the internet and everything else is cobbled together from layered stacks of inadequately tested barely-functional sludge code that comes with no warranties express or implied. Feel free to debate the finer points in the disco or SH/SC.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 13:12

Tenebrais: Sep 2, 2011

Is there a good alternative to Kethane for getting fuel in-situ? A lot of mods that depended on it for resources are supporting ORS now (such as Modular Kolonization System) and this whole kerfuffle is a good enough reason to switch, but avoiding wasting fuel on the Kerbin gravity well is half the point of getting resources from space in the first place.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 13:30

Platonicsolid: Nov 17, 2008

Tenebrais posted:

Is there a good alternative to Kethane for getting fuel in-situ? A lot of mods that depended on it for resources are supporting ORS now (such as Modular Kolonization System) and this whole kerfuffle is a good enough reason to switch, but avoiding wasting fuel on the Kerbin gravity well is half the point of getting resources from space in the first place.

KSP interstellar has a version of it. I think it's not as robust but never really toyed with it. Also comes with all the spergy complexity of Interstellar. I believe Squad said previously that ISRU wasn't going to be a core feature. I hope they're reconsidering that.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 13:42

Spelling Mitsake: Oct 4, 2007; Clutch Cargo wishes they had Tractor.

Megadyptes posted:

well I had to go looking and http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/82118-KSP-64bits-on-Windows-%28this-time-it-s-not-a-request%29

I just tried this out on my cheap laptop (with an Intel i3) and noticed a huge boost. Especially while launching. I can't wait for the day the official game has 64 bit.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 13:50

Tenebrais: Sep 2, 2011

I'd rather not deal with the sweeping changes of Interstellar. BioMass looked promising, but it depends on Kethane for its resource converters, and the download is gone anyway.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 13:50

emf: Aug 1, 2002

Klyith posted:

And I thought that guy who argued that girl kerbals should come in burqas was an idiot. At least that dude was coherent.

How else am I supposed reenact Pakistan drone strike atrocities?

With all due seriousness, people who profess to be enlightened on gender equality would do well to read some feminist literature. There's even science fiction, so goons don't have to travel too far outside their comfort zones. Maybe start with The Left Hand of Darkenss. It's even available as an e-book so goons don't have to leave their basements and travel too far outside their comfort zones.

But, whatever. There's no need for KSP to be groundbreaking when it's good enough to add vaguely feminine alternates to the overtly male appearing main characters. I'm sure women appreciate the afterthought.

Sarcasm aside, add girl kerbals, don't add girl kerbals, whatever. I was just trying to point out that what one thinks of as progressive and inclusive may miss the mark in ways one didn't consider.

edit:
<-- lol

# ? Jun 12, 2014 14:05

ssb: Feb 16, 2006; WOULD YOU ACCOMPANY ME ON A BRISK WALK? I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH YOU!!

emf posted:

How else am I supposed reenact Pakistan drone strike atrocities?

With all due seriousness, people who profess to be enlightened on gender equality would do well to read some feminist literature. There's even science fiction, so goons don't have to travel too far outside their comfort zones. Maybe start with The Left Hand of Darkenss. It's even available as an e-book so goons don't have to leave their basements and travel too far outside their comfort zones.

But, whatever. There's no need for KSP to be groundbreaking when it's good enough to add vaguely feminine alternates to the overtly male appearing main characters. I'm sure women appreciate the afterthought.

Sarcasm aside, add girl kerbals, don't add girl kerbals, whatever. I was just trying to point out that what one thinks of as progressive and inclusive may miss the mark in ways one didn't consider.

edit:
<-- lol

Don't you have somewhere else to be?

# ? Jun 12, 2014 14:39

emf: Aug 1, 2002

shortspecialbus posted:

Don't you have somewhere else to be?

Nah, not right now. You want to chill out and drink some beers before the start of the World Cup?

# ? Jun 12, 2014 14:50

Queen_Combat: Jan 15, 2011

Holy poo poo get out of my fun video game thread with this drivel. We're supposed to be angry at a modder for being a shitheel right now, guys. Get with the program.

(seriously though SocketSeven and emf what the gently caress guys)

# ? Jun 12, 2014 14:57

Maxmaps: Oct 21, 2008; Not actually a shark.

I expected the thread to go a bit silly overnight but great googly moogly guys. :stare:

# ? Jun 12, 2014 15:02

emf: Aug 1, 2002

Geirskogul posted:

Holy poo poo get out of my fun video game thread with this drivel. We're supposed to be angry at a modder for being a shitheel right now, guys. Get with the program.

(seriously though SocketSeven and emf what the gently caress guys)

Don't ask "what the gently caress" of me. I tried to have a polite academic discussion, and for my part I resorted to a minimum of sarcasm. If you want to "what the gently caress" anyone, direct it to the blithering spergs and their emptyquoting who turned that discussion into the shitfest it became. Now I'm just having a little leisurely fun on a lazy afternoon.

But, seriously though, you guys should read that book.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 15:18

Ratzap: Jun 9, 2012; Let no pie go wasted; Soiled Meat

45 posts overnight and such entertaining reading too! That statistics mod has been around as a stand alone for a month or so, I guess the guy wasn't too happy with the level of take up so he jammed it into a Kethane release. No great surprise to be honest, he's not terribly subtle. The easy answer is just delete the ModStatistics folder(s) and the phone home poo poo is gone. Obviously having to take the time to do this is pretty irritating and will only increase if he persuades other suckers to put it in their distributions.

Default on phone home stuff would be a deadly sin to add to your modders agreement Max. I don't even like having mods check for newer versions automatically, that should also be opt in.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 15:24

Bat Ham: Apr 22, 2008; Bat Nan

Re-rail, I got my first Kerbalnaut back from Duna! Motherfucker was up in space for over 4 years in total so he's probably a little messed up but otherwise it's all good!

3 Important lessons that I've learned from my voyage:

1) The suspension on landing struts has a lot more travel than I expected, and can totally risk blowing up a bottom-mounted engine.
2) Apparently 4 Nuclear engines on a mid-size Duna ship is just enough to get you back into orbit anyway, so it's all ok!
3) Hitting a planet at 8km above sea level directly from orbital velocity is equal parts terrifying and fun.

Is there any way to fine tune how much the scroll wheel affects manoeuvre nodes? I tried to set up some aerobraking on Duna but found it kind of finicky when I can't fine tune it even further with the wheel. Maybe like shift + scroll halves the amount changed or something?

# ? Jun 12, 2014 15:24

Maxmaps: Oct 21, 2008; Not actually a shark.

Ratzap posted:

45 posts overnight and such entertaining reading too! That statistics mod has been around as a stand alone for a month or so, I guess the guy wasn't too happy with the level of take up so he jammed it into a Kethane release. No great surprise to be honest, he's not terribly subtle. The easy answer is just delete the ModStatistics folder(s) and the phone home poo poo is gone. Obviously having to take the time to do this is pretty irritating and will only increase if he persuades other suckers to put it in their distributions.

Default on phone home stuff would be a deadly sin to add to your modders agreement Max. I don't even like having mods check for newer versions automatically, that should also be opt in.

I think a realistic compromise here is have it be opt in instead of opt out.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 15:32

DStecks: Feb 6, 2012

emf posted:

Don't ask "what the gently caress" of me. I tried to have a polite academic discussion, and for my part I resorted to a minimum of sarcasm.

Actually, you were trying to use the Nirvana fallacy to argue that the people here had the ~right opinions for the wrong reasons~, because you're a much much shittier feminist than you think you are.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 15:32

xzzy: Mar 5, 2009

Ratzap posted:

The easy answer is just delete the ModStatistics folder(s) and the phone home poo poo is gone.

That's an arms race, because he'll just bury the code somewhere in Kethane so only computer nerds can extract it.

This really has to be fixed by Squad, either chat with the guy and get him to cut the bullshit or revoke his mod license or spend a year building a mod sandbox into KSP.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 15:41

emf: Aug 1, 2002

DStecks posted:

Actually, you were trying to use the Nirvana fallacy to argue that the people here had the ~right opinions for the wrong reasons~, because you're a much much shittier feminist than you think you are.

Actually, your critique that I'm guilty of a Nirvana fallacy is incorrect since neither are kerbals a "real" thing nor is an androgynous alien race an "unrealistic" concept. Additionally, I wasn't making the argument that people here had the right opinion for the wrong reasons; instead I was arguing that the reason they were doing a thing (increased equality) was not necessarily being fulfilled by their actions. Finally, I'm a much shittier feminist than you think I am.

edit here because nobody actually cares at all:

DStecks posted:

No, you were arguing that their actions don't fulfill that goal absolutely perfectly, therefore they should do nothing. That's the Nirvana fallacy.

No, I was arguing that their proposed action didn't necessarily fulfill their goal as well as they think, therefore they might want to consider thinking of different ways they could approach the problem (or at the very least consider the ways in which their proposed solution is weak, and work at addressing those weaknesses). I'm pretty sure that thinking that there are only two possible courses of action is a fallacy with a fancy name too, but what do you call it when someone doesn't read or try to understand their opponents argument? I remember: Internet.

emf fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jun 12, 2014

# ? Jun 12, 2014 15:47

Ratzap: Jun 9, 2012; Let no pie go wasted; Soiled Meat

xzzy posted:

That's an arms race, because he'll just bury the code somewhere in Kethane so only computer nerds can extract it.

This really has to be fixed by Squad, either chat with the guy and get him to cut the bullshit or revoke his mod license or spend a year building a mod sandbox into KSP.

True but that is also the sort of behaviour that provokes a hostile fork from some pissed off anti. Anyway, Max can pass the concerns along and hopefully get it dealt with (preferably killing off all default on network traffic including version checks and so on. Making connections and sending data must be something the person installing actively acknowledges and switches on).

# ? Jun 12, 2014 15:54

DStecks: Feb 6, 2012

emf posted:

I was arguing that the reason they were doing a thing (increased equality) was not necessarily being fulfilled by their actions.

No, you were arguing that their actions don't fulfill that goal absolutely perfectly, therefore they should do nothing. That's the Nirvana fallacy.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:10

Madox: Oct 25, 2004; Recedite, plebes!

About the networking thing, I know the game is written in Unity which I have poked around with (I'm a programmer!). As a stop gap, it seems like they could use Network.isMessageQueueRunning() call to turn off the network entirely when control flow goes into a mod, and then restore network when it goes back to running Squad code.

http://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/Network-isMessageQueueRunning.html

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:11

OAquinas: Jan 27, 2008; Biden has sat immobile on the Iron Throne of America. He is the Master of Malarkey by the will of the gods, and master of a million votes by the might of his inexhaustible calamari.

Madox posted:

About the networking thing, I know the game is written in Unity which I have poked around with (I'm a programmer!). As a stop gap, it seems like they could use Network.isMessageQueueRunning() call to turn off the network entirely when control flow goes into a mod, and then restore network when it goes back to running Squad code.

http://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/Network-isMessageQueueRunning.html

Sounds like this would adversely affect KSP Multiplayer. However if you can make that toggle-able in the settings menu, that would solve that problem neatly.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:13

Madox: Oct 25, 2004; Recedite, plebes!

OAquinas posted:

Sounds like this would adversely affect KSP Multiplayer. However if you can make that toggle-able in the settings menu, that would solve that problem neatly.

True, if the user can pick what mods get network access, that would be cool.
Also not sure how multithread-friendly this call would be or even how multithreaded Kerbal is but I'll let Squad deal with that :p

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:18

revdrkevind: Dec 15, 2013; ASK ME ABOUT MY TINY DICK

also my opinion on

Maxmaps posted:

I think a realistic compromise here is have it be opt in instead of opt out.

(cough cough please add "opt-in" language to the dev forum rules asap)

Random nerd point since someone was whining about Linux anyway. Squad should advocate for a specific freedom-respecting license (or set of licenses) for mods to follow, just find the minimum bar license that reasserts your policies like posting source code. License issues being important for computer nerds and wot wot. It seems like a Majir thread is sticky'd as your license post? Yeah...

tldr: This is a placeholder for a picture of RMS photoshopped to look like Jesus.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:19

Keiya: Aug 22, 2009; Come with me if you want to not die.

And now I'm feeling pretty happy that I'm content with very few if any mods for KSP.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:23

Icon Of Sin: Dec 26, 2008

Keiya posted:

And now I'm feeling pretty happy that I'm content with very few if any mods for KSP.

Yea kethane is coming back out of my mod pile now. I didn't really use it that much, but if the dev wants to be a prick it makes the decision pretty easy.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:25

Bhodi: Dec 9, 2007; Oh, it's just a cat.; Pillbug

I hope we get the inclusion of some sort of in-situ kethane-style resource extraction into the base game. Sidestep this whole issue completely.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:32

Ratzap: Jun 9, 2012; Let no pie go wasted; Soiled Meat

Bhodi posted:

I hope we get the inclusion of some sort of in-situ kethane-style resource extraction into the base game. Sidestep this whole issue completely.

This sort of thing is why I talked the KISP author into splitting his resource system off into a separate project (well, actually Dred and I were discussing writing a challenger from scratch when we noticed his license was pretty open and thought "use his, less work"). It would just need some disgruntled folk to use it instead of Kethane and give it some momentum.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64595-Open-Resource-System-%28ORS%29-Mod-Resource-API-version-1-1-0

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:48

Ledenko: Aug 10, 2012

From what I remember a resource system is still planned but for later stages of development - gotta make a complete game before you start adding what was considered end game stuff.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 16:51

Maxmaps: Oct 21, 2008; Not actually a shark.

Ledenko posted:

From what I remember a resource system is still planned but for later stages of development - gotta make a complete game before you start adding what was considered end game stuff.

The door on resources is not shut entirely but the model we were working off of (I don't know if you guys have seen the chart) turned out to be an unfun mess and is thus not being done.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 17:02

OAquinas: Jan 27, 2008; Biden has sat immobile on the Iron Throne of America. He is the Master of Malarkey by the will of the gods, and master of a million votes by the might of his inexhaustible calamari.

Maxmaps posted:

The door on resources is not shut entirely but the model we were working off of (I don't know if you guys have seen the chart) turned out to be an unfun mess and is thus not being done.

I don't recall offhand...can you repost it?

# ? Jun 12, 2014 17:03

Maxmaps: Oct 21, 2008; Not actually a shark.

OAquinas posted:

I don't recall offhand...can you repost it?

Sure!

# ? Jun 12, 2014 17:34

Okan170: Nov 14, 2007; Torpedoes away!

Maxmaps posted:

Sure!

Well, I get why you decided against that! Holy buckets... I already find Interstellar's lack of documentation a big problem, something this complex would have to have a lot of hand-holding I think.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 17:36

Luneshot: Mar 10, 2014

Jesus, that's...kinda absurd, honestly.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 17:44

ArchangeI: Jul 15, 2010

At least its one of the occasions where you ask "who thought that this was a good idea" and the answer is "literally no one, including the devs".

Although I have to admit a liking for Blutonium and Propellium as things which are part of the Kerbal periodic table of elements.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 17:54

Nevets: Sep 11, 2002; Be they sad or be they well,
I'll make their lives a hell

It was probably started from a 'realism' approach to rocket fuel, where Kethane was started from a gameplay approach. A multiple input approach fails becuase if you want to make rocket fuel on the Mun, either you have all the raw materials and you can (bottlenecked by the scarcest component), or you are missing 1 or more raw materials and you can't without setting up an interplanetary supply chain. I can't see a scenario where you have to import materials from multiple celestial bodies to make fuel being efficient or fun unless they add some kind of automated/repeatable mission system so you only have to fly the supply mission once to prove it can be done.

If you discard that as an option, then each planet/moon has an amount of fuel based on the scarcest component, so you might as well just simplify it to 'Kethane'.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 18:14

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# ? Jun 14, 2024 11:48

BrainMeats: Aug 20, 2000; We have evolved beyond the need for posting.; Soiled Meat

You could simplify it a lot by just gating certain techs until you recover something from the cosmos. Maybe you can't research ion techs until you bring back a sample of zeonium from the surface of Moho for the lab boys to poke at.

# ? Jun 12, 2014 18:23

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