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Hobo Clown posted:Now I'm wondering who the hell would be king in this scenario. Ser Pounce? Holy poo poo I just realized Gendry might actually have some sort of chance since Stannis is presumably disinherited.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:44
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I'm assuming Gendry just lost his paddle and has been stuck at sea for the entire season.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:46
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Doltos posted:No, Tyrion sent away Myrcella to keep her out of Cersei's clutches while trying to figure out who betrays what he says to Cersei, which is why he presented the three different marriage candidates. It's not the Lannister's plans to get Myrcella married off, at least not in the books after Joffrey dies. Cersei spends many passages pissed off that Myrcella is gone. In both the show and the books she's currently betrothed to Trystane Martell, a son of Prince Doran of House Martell.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:49
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thecolorpurple posted:That has nothing to do with show vs. books. In both he's pretty clearly scheming to find out who's Cersei's informant and get Myrcella away, who she marries is second to that. Except that still doesn't justify any of the "if the Martells actually marry Myrcella there will be a loving war" thing, since even if it was part of a plot he outright told them "hey let's marry our kids". If anything there not being a marriage is a more likely and valid cause for war.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:51
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Doltos posted:No, Tyrion sent away Myrcella to keep her out of Cersei's clutches while trying to figure out who betrays what he says to Cersei, which is why he presented the three different marriage candidates. It's not the Lannister's plans to get Myrcella married off, at least not in the books after Joffrey dies. Cersei spends many passages pissed off that Myrcella is gone. No one gives a poo poo about the loving books in this thread. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Myrcella_Baratheon posted:She has been sent to Dorne as part of a marriage pact with House Martell. End of story. The idea that the sister of the current king is deliberately sent to be a political prisoner is absurd.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:51
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whowhatwhere posted:In both the show and the books she's currently betrothed to Trystane Martell, a son of Prince Doran of House Martell. Aaaah poo poo, you're right. If it helps the Martells didn't try to marry her, it was Tyrion who offered. Cersei was still pissed off about that though and didn't want it to happen. Oh well, egg on my face.
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Jun 12, 2014 18:52
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thecolorpurple posted:That has nothing to do with show vs. books. In both he's pretty clearly scheming to find out who's Cersei's informant and get Myrcella away, who she marries is second to that. Not necessarily. His plan may have been to send her to Dorne regardless, that just happened to be the one that was leaked. The other options were kinda nuts. I mean, Theon? Really?
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Jun 12, 2014 19:00
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It was a good move on his part. Otherwise, Dorne could have allied with Renly's forces (who were geographically close to each other at the time.)
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Jun 12, 2014 19:05
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Anarkii posted:No one gives a poo poo about the loving books in this thread. seems you have an aptitude for reading wikis but not for reading books
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Jun 12, 2014 19:09
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BillBear posted:Holy poo poo I just realized Gendry might actually have some sort of chance since Stannis is presumably disinherited. Except he was never legitimized, so someone would have to prove that he was actually Robert's son and the parties that knew about Gendry are either dead or may want the crown themselves. "Stannis is a traitor" wouldn't really discredit his claim because his claim would still be valid. Worst case if news got out that Tommen and Myrcella were the results of incest, the proper ruler would be Stannis' daughter.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:14
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BillBear posted:Holy poo poo I just realized Gendry might actually have some sort of chance since Stannis is presumably disinherited. Nope, because Gendry is a bastard. Had Robert legitimized him like Roose just did with Ramsay, then yes Gendry would have a claim. As it stands he has no claim, though he could try and use his blood ties to Robert to try to take the throne if he could get support I suppose.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:16
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If I recall correctly from the history videos, house Baratheon is an ancient cadet branch of house Targaryen, which is how Robert ended up on the throne. And also why he was so intent on hunting down any surviving Targaryens, since their survival invalidated his claim. By blood, Danaerys is the current rightful heir to the throne, followed by Stannis, then Shireen. By law, Tommen is the king. The throne goes to whoever happens to have enough support from the nobles for their arse to survive the journey to the seat. Blood relation gives people a protocol for whom to support, but really doesn't mean anything else. If Stannis - or indeed, if anyone, since Stannis is already an enemy of the state - had Tommen and Myrcella assassinated, he would have the strongest claim to the throne, but he does not have a lot of popular support (and given his reputation for how he treats people who have broken is laws, he'd be unlikely to gain it). The Lannisters would probably back Cercei as regent, or possibly Tywin himself, as the closest relatives of the previous monarchs. If Myrcella did marry Trystane, the Martells would back him, and might do even if they never did manage to tie the knot, since they were betrothed and no one else has a strong claim. Gendry could make a claim as the son of king Robert, but nobody would back him. I don't think this will actually happen in the plot, mind. We've already had a succession war free-for-all arc, doing it again would be retreading old ground. There's not always going to be a clear heir to the throne. When a monarch dies without close relatives that can take over, the rules for who does just aren't very precise. Monarchies tend to be set up that way, since it gives noble houses far more opportunity to seize power.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:23
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monster on a stick posted:Except he was never legitimized, so someone would have to prove that he was actually Robert's son and the parties that knew about Gendry are either dead or may want the crown themselves. The "is a traitor" title only holds sway so long as the parties that attainted him are still in power. It means that the only way for Stannis to actually take the throne is through force, since the usual avenues of inheritance are now closed to him. It's sort of the same for someone like Gendry. He's older than the current king and if enough people turn against the Lannisters, he could actually be propped up as a legitimate contender for the throne. That would have required that Robert recognize him as his bastard, at the very least though. He wouldn't need to be legitimized, just recognized. It's why having child kings is such a dangerous position for a family. Without a clear line of inheritance, people get nervous and then you are in a position of fending off attempts at being usurped.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:24
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monster on a stick posted:Except he was never legitimized, so someone would have to prove that he was actually Robert's son and the parties that knew about Gendry are either dead or may want the crown themselves. That whole incest thing is really confusing. Like, there's no way they can prove that. Stannis sent letters out about it, and basically everyone just ignored him unless they specifically had reason to hate Joffrey (or wanted the throne themselves). Ned saying it doesn't make it true, so I have no idea how that's supposed to play out. Does one dude saying it make it official? Because Ned never declared it from his position as Hand, he just sent Stannis a letter, and Stannis saying it looks sketchy as gently caress because it's like, yeah, why wouldn't you say that, you get the crown this way?
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Jun 12, 2014 19:26
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Bobo the Red posted:That whole incest thing is really confusing. Like, there's no way they can prove that. Stannis sent letters out about it, and basically everyone just ignored him unless they specifically had reason to hate Joffrey (or wanted the throne themselves). Ned saying it doesn't make it true, so I have no idea how that's supposed to play out. Does one dude saying it make it official? Because Ned never declared it from his position as Hand, he just sent Stannis a letter, and Stannis saying it looks sketchy as gently caress because it's like, yeah, why wouldn't you say that, you get the crown this way? They could look at the book and notice that their has been no blond hair Baratheon, but their has been ton of blond hair Lannisters
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Jun 12, 2014 19:28
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bobkatt013 posted:They could look at the book and notice that their has been no blond hair Baratheon, but their has been ton of blond hair Lannisters Really, it comes down to "Do I have a good reason to dethrone this individual?" If the nobility (or a good portion of them) didn't like you, you can bet they would drum up some reason or another to declare war. Barring that, you were just assassinated. Basically, it was a case of people deciding they didn't like Joff, so they choose to believe the claim that he is an incest baby.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:32
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Bobo the Red posted:That whole incest thing is really confusing. Like, there's no way they can prove that. Stannis sent letters out about it, and basically everyone just ignored him unless they specifically had reason to hate Joffrey (or wanted the throne themselves). Ned saying it doesn't make it true, so I have no idea how that's supposed to play out. Does one dude saying it make it official? Because Ned never declared it from his position as Hand, he just sent Stannis a letter, and Stannis saying it looks sketchy as gently caress because it's like, yeah, why wouldn't you say that, you get the crown this way? It's a society without DNA tests so they go by things that are pretty legitimate sounding to them, like how all the Lannister kids have blond hair while all of Robert's bastards and pretty much any Baratheon has brown hair. Plus everyone ignored Stannis's claims because even if the kids are products of incest no one cares enough to sacrifice their men and money to go fight to put Stannis on the throne.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:33
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CapnAndy posted:
Why do the Tyrells hate the Martells? Has that ever been mentioned on the show?
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Jun 12, 2014 19:47
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Why do the Tyrells hate the Martells? Has that ever been mentioned on the show? Yeah that's news to me. I thought both of them were on the loyalist side in the rebellion?
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Jun 12, 2014 19:52
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Why do the Tyrells hate the Martells? Has that ever been mentioned on the show? No but basically the Tyrells and Martells used to war a lot and a bunch of them died on the main causeway that connects the Reach to Dorne. They hate each other kinda like how the Boltons and Starks hate each other, or the Reynes and Lannisters.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:53
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^^ Oh, that's interesting. Is that just historically true, or is this a recent happening? ^^marktheando posted:Yeah that's news to me. I thought both of them were on the loyalist side in the rebellion? I get the sense the Martells aren't particularly loyal to anyone. But I don't see why there'd be any specific conflict between them and the Tyrells. The Lannisters are the only ones I've been led to believe are reviled in Dorne.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:54
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Doltos posted:It's a society without DNA tests so they go by things that are pretty legitimate sounding to them, like how all the Lannister kids have blond hair while all of Robert's bastards and pretty much any Baratheon has brown hair.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:58
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Xealot posted:^^ Oh, that's interesting. Is that just historically true, or is this a recent happening? ^^
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Jun 12, 2014 20:02
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marktheando posted:Yeah that's news to me. I thought both of them were on the loyalist side in the rebellion? They don't. Not that we've seen, anyway. It does make sense that they would, since the Reach and the Stormlands are the only the regions that touch Dorne. Doltos posted:It's a society without DNA tests so they go by things that are pretty legitimate sounding to them, like how all the Lannister kids have blond hair while all of Robert's bastards and pretty much any Baratheon has brown hair. Black of hair. Goodness. It's like you've never seen Jon Snow Not actually a spoiler, don't worry
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Jun 12, 2014 20:09
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CapnAndy posted:Historically. They just share a lot of border and liked to go to war against each other for more land until the Targaryens finally made them stop it. I would have liked to see GoT if the Targs never showed up. Just basically the seven kingdoms petty infighting each other with no cause of concern for an outside invader.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:11
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Doltos posted:I would have liked to see GoT if the Targs never showed up. Just basically the seven kingdoms petty infighting each other with no cause of concern for an outside invader.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:12
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Doltos posted:I would have liked to see GoT if the Targs never showed up. Just basically the seven kingdoms petty infighting each other with no cause of concern for an outside invader. This is the truest thing. Dany's story line is pure distraction from the awesome intrigue, and like, am I supposed to root for the descendant of a psycho, who gets given magical beings to help her against all these dudes who are just normal guys who scheme and plot and occasionally actually have to try? All for the throne of a land she has never even seen? Pfff She's too remote to be a villain and too all-powerful to be a hero. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 20:13
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Strange question, S1 but do show watchers/book readers know definitively that Joffery/Tommen was born of incest? Or does GRRM give Ned the evidence and we're supposed to agree with Ned?
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Jun 12, 2014 20:16
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Star War Sex Parrot posted:So read a book on Roman history. Romans had many outside invaders in their entire course of existence. First it was the Sammites and Etruscans, then the rest of the Italian League, then the Gauls and Germanic Tribes, then the Greeks and Pyrrhus, then the Carthiginians, then the Parthinians and other middle eastern kingdoms and city-states that I can't remember the name of right now, then the Egyptians and Marc Antony, then the infighting started, then the Visigoths and Othergoths that I can't remember what were called right now. The Duggler posted:Strange question, S1 but do show watchers/book readers know definitively that Joffery/Tommen was born of incest? Or does GRRM give Ned the evidence and we're supposed to agree with Ned? Oh that's a really good question and I never thought to think of it that way, but no, Cersei admits that they're all Jaime's bastards.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:16
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monster on a stick posted:Except he was never legitimized, so someone would have to prove that he was actually Robert's son and the parties that knew about Gendry are either dead or may want the crown themselves. Gendry is the closest living person to Robert, other then Stannis and Shireen. They would obviously legitimize him before they allow Stannis who clearly hates the Lannisters on the throne..
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Jun 12, 2014 20:17
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The Duggler posted:Strange question, but do show watchers/book readers know definitively that Joffery/Tommen was born of incest? Or does GRRM give Ned the evidence and we're supposed to agree with Ned? Cersei admits it when Ned confronts her.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:17
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All of a sudden I really, really want to play Kingmaker. But I'm pretty sure I'm literally the only person in this city who has ever played it. I was kinda happy too when Daenerys decided to gently caress off and stay to "rule" her collection of sand dune cities. She can show up when it's time to barbecue some white walkers. ^^^I don't know how anyone could have forgotten that scene. I mean, explicitly saying she had other ways of "finishing" Robert? Talking about how another family inbred for generations to preserve the purity of their blood? It was that very scene that was the beginning of the end for Ned. Fryhtaning fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 20:17
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Fryhtaning posted:All of a sudden I really, really want to play Kingmaker. But I'm pretty sure I'm literally the only person in this city who has ever played it. Do you mean the mafia variant? I found myself the scum king in LYOL more often than not. It was lots of fun.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:18
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BillBear posted:Gendry is the closest living person to Robert, other then Stannis and Shireen. They would obviously legitimize him before they allow Stannis who clearly hates the Lannisters on the throne.. Pretty sure Gendry also hates the Lannisters tho.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:20
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BillBear posted:Gendry is the closest living person to Robert, other then Stannis and Shireen. They would obviously legitimize him before they allow Stannis who clearly hates the Lannisters on the throne.. Yeah, Tommen could actually legitimize Gendry without losing his claim, since bastards can sort of just be inserted wherever you want in a line of succession, I think. If Tommen was dead, it would be a harder thing to swing. doverhog posted:Pretty sure Gendry also hates the Lannisters tho. Not more than he hates Stannis though. The Lannisters were hunting him down in a more impersonal way (and the guy responsible for that is dead). Stannis tried to kill him specifically (and much more recently), and gave him some blue balls to boot.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:20
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Max posted:Do you mean the mafia variant? The mafia game was fun, too, but I meant the old, super-long, super-geeky, nerdy variant. Holy gently caress I'm going to reinvent that game, GoT style, and make about 
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Jun 12, 2014 20:23
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Fryhtaning posted:I was kinda happy too when Daenerys decided to gently caress off and stay to "rule" her collection of sand dune cities. She can show up when it's time to barbecue some white walkers. I don't know if she's decided to gently caress off as much as realize what a pain in the rear end it is to rule, plus she still has that anti-slavery thing going. I'm really kind of surprised that the various Free Cities of Essos haven't taken more of an interest in her trying to make an empire there. Bobo the Red posted:Yeah, Tommen could actually legitimize Gendry without losing his claim, since bastards can sort of just be inserted wherever you want in a line of succession, I think. If Tommen was dead, it would be a harder thing to swing. Tommen wouldn't do this because Gendry would be an immediate pretender to the throne. He's kind of a dope but he's not that much of a dope.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:24
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Fryhtaning posted:The mafia game was fun, too, but I meant the old, super-long, super-geeky, nerdy variant.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:27
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monster on a stick posted:Tommen wouldn't do this because Gendry would be an immediate pretender to the throne. He's kind of a dope but he's not that much of a dope. Yeah, unless there's an immediate threat of some sort, putting Gendry in line is really risky. And since Tommen's basically a Tywin puppet it's even less likely, since it's not even up to the kid in practice. CapnAndy posted:Wait for Crusader Kings II to go on sale (it does so frequently) and pick it up. Yeah, CK2 is basically the GoT game even without the GoT mod. It's fantastic.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:29
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monster on a stick posted:Tommen wouldn't do this because Gendry would be an immediate pretender to the throne. He's kind of a dope but he's not that much of a dope. Then Gendry dies.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:33
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