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The Insect Court posted:Just as a general rule, if your response to hearing that three teenagers were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood is "I need to know if they were Jewish or Palestinians before I decide if it was a bad thing" then that is a sign that you are probably a truly terrible person and a shameless bigot. You're right. So where does that put Bibi?
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Jul 1, 2014 04:09
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's great. Sell that to the Israeli public, or the American one for that matter. It is much likelier to get the Israeli public to push the IDF to remove settlers (as they have done in the Sinai and in the Gaza Strip and Northern "Samaria") than any foreign power. I'm not saying it's going to happen, friend. Just that the US itself muscling out Israel in Palestine would probably be good.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:11
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Absurd Alhazred posted:UNSC resolutions 242 and 338 both acknowledge Israel within the Green Line borders. The Saudi Initiative, signed by all Arab League and all Organization of Islamic Countries states (including Iran!) acknowledge Israel within the Green Line. Any negotiation under the auspices of the US or the Quartet has always accepted Israel within the Green Line. Is there another expression of international consensus that I am missing here? There's a difference between recognizing Israel within the context of them withdrawing from the Occupied Territories and just letting Israel be "whatever assholes they want" as long as the occupation ends.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:12
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McDowell posted:Yeah it seems like Obama and Bibi hate each other and the State Department has all but given up on the peace process and 'two-state solution'. But a new administration could go right back to square one. This. For real. I coincidentally just finished Blumenthal's "Goliath" last week. The overwhelming trend in Israel has been the push to the hard right and the unwillingness of moderates and the left to speak out against their nation's direction. They want it all, and I think the people in charge are deluded enough to believe they can actually get it. HashtagGirlboss fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 04:12
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I've got to admit the idea of a 19-year-old kid from the Ozarks yelling "Hey get the gently caress away from there! What the gently caress are you doing?" at crazed settlers spitting on Palestinian kids gives me a fuzzy feeling. But uh yeah nobody wants that job.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:13
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Nintendo Kid posted:I'm not saying it's going to happen, friend. Just that the US itself muscling out Israel in Palestine would probably be good. Well, I think that before things went south, the idea was that NATO forces would be hanging around the West Bank and Gaza in lieu of Palestine having it's own real, honest-to-God army. But that would have been after Israel withdrew its own settlers, although border fixes made it so there wouldn't really be a need to move that many, anyway. illrepute posted:There's a difference between recognizing Israel within the context of them withdrawing from the Occupied Territories and just letting Israel be "whatever assholes they want" as long as the occupation ends. Well, I'll qualify that in saying that the international community has been very reluctant to actually intervene in the assholery of member states up to a certain level, which Israel not granting its Arab citizens the same rights as Jews but allowing them to vote and have quite a few of the same civil rights does not reach. I don't see an international equivalent of the 101 Airborne desegregating a school in Little Rock. SedanChair posted:I've got to admit the idea of a 19-year-old kid from the Ozarks yelling "Hey get the gently caress away from there! What the gently caress are you doing?" at crazed settlers spitting on Palestinian kids gives me a fuzzy feeling.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Well, I'll qualify that in saying that the international community has been very reluctant to actually intervene in the assholery of member states up to a certain level, which Israel not granting its Arab citizens the same rights as Jews but allowing them to vote and have quite a few of the same civil rights does not reach. I don't see an international equivalent of the 101 Airborne desegregating a school in Little Rock. No, you're definitely right. But it's important to recognize that Israel/Palestine has a unique position in international diplomacy (being the subject of a HUGE amount of UN resolutions) and I don't see that fading from international view even after a hypothetical Israeli withdrawal from the Occupied Territories. The U.N. is hypervigilant about issues developing in that region, and if post-withdrawal Israel continues to be militarily adventurous in Palestine or other neighboring countries, I don't see the U.N. (hypothetical future-UN) and the international community deciding that because they don't have soldiers on the ground in Hebron anymore they'll just let it slide. Maybe that's optimistic.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:20
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illrepute posted:No, you're definitely right. But it's important to recognize that Israel/Palestine has a unique position in international diplomacy (being the subject of a HUGE amount of UN resolutions) and I don't see that fading from international view even after a hypothetical Israeli withdrawal from the Occupied Territories. The U.N. is hypervigilant about issues developing in that region, and if post-withdrawal Israel continues to be militarily adventurous in Palestine or other neighboring countries, I don't see the U.N. (hypothetical future-UN) and the international community deciding that because they don't have soldiers on the ground in Hebron anymore they'll just let it slide. Maybe that's optimistic.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:24
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cafel posted:This whole Israeli furor over Fatah and Hamas forming a united government has struck me as being a bit funny. Before they were united, wasn't one of the common Israeli complaints over why negotiation couldn't proceed was that the Palestinians weren't giving them a united front with which to negotiate? Did I just make that up, or did they really immediately turn around and say any negotiations with a united front were off the second it materialized? also for those who think the US will do anything involving a US citizen killed by I/P conflict, at least one died on one of those ships that tried to break the Gaza blockade which were boarded by heavily armed IDF soldiers. Nothing happened from that. Or Rachel Corrie.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:26
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The Insect Court posted:Monstrous perpetrators of a brutal attempted hitch-hiking stopped by heroic resistance fighters who defuse the situation by shooting them in the head, news at 11. Pretty sure no one is condoning the killings. It's kind of a fact that Israel's response here is actually a bigger deal than the crime itself though and will kill/ruin the lives of far more people. Israel's crimes generally warrant more of a discussion because there are countless people who actually defend them and their actions result in far more deaths/harm than any crimes committed by Palestinians. While it can seem like a circlejerk on this specific board (since most people here acknowledge how awful Israel is), in the broader picture Israel is often defended and supported.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:29
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I don't really see American support for Israel eroding at any point, unless Israel does something monumentally stupid. Like, Israel could declare the West Bank and Gaza integral parts of Israel tomorrow and send in their army to drive every Palestinian out of the new borders and I can't imagine anything more than hand-wringing and empty diplomatic threats from America - and the extremely pro-Israel factions would just double-down anyway. Without losing bedrock American support, not just from one administration, Israel will remain untouchable.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:31
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Dolash posted:I don't really see American support for Israel eroding at any point, unless Israel does something monumentally stupid. Like, Israel could declare the West Bank and Gaza integral parts of Israel tomorrow and send in their army to drive every Palestinian out of the new borders and I can't imagine anything more than hand-wringing and empty diplomatic threats from America - and the extremely pro-Israel factions would just double-down anyway. Without losing bedrock American support, not just from one administration, Israel will remain untouchable. I don't agree. Israel is very keenly aware of it's declining international support. Anything as blatant as outright driving the Palestinians out of the West Bank and Gaza is too far. People would notice. Hands would be wrung. It's easier to isolate and starve them out, even if it takes more effort and time. There's a reason they pretend to want peace and that reason is that atrocities need to stay under the radar of the US media.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:37
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Dolash posted:I don't really see American support for Israel eroding at any point, unless Israel does something monumentally stupid. Like, Israel could declare the West Bank and Gaza integral parts of Israel tomorrow and send in their army to drive every Palestinian out of the new borders and I can't imagine anything more than hand-wringing and empty diplomatic threats from America - and the extremely pro-Israel factions would just double-down anyway. Without losing bedrock American support, not just from one administration, Israel will remain untouchable. This support does have its limitations, though. It hasn't stopped the EU from restricting its R&D funding from reaching institutions in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, nor requiring that Israel label any of its products from there. There are ways around it, but a sufficiently rigorous enforcement regime can have a chilling effect that may make it a bad investment choice. Furthermore, there is a good argument to be made that US pressure on Israel for a two-state solution is saving Israel from long-term problems created by this blanket diplomatic support. If American Jews are really getting disenchanted with supporting Israeli right-wingers, and this finally percolates up the Jewish organization ladder, this may also help.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:41
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You guys forget that the majority of US support stems from evangelicals actively trying to create the conditions for the second coming. Since those same evangelicals make up the core of the Republican party, no amount of sane political theory will stop the American right from their fanatical support for Israel. That said, I think the Jews deserve their own state, for the same reasons I think the Kurds and Roma do.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:48
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Aurubin posted:You guys forget that the majority of US support stems from evangelicals actively trying to create the conditions for the second coming. Support as in votes, maybe. Support as in money, eh there's a lot more rich Jews than rich Evangelicals (especially as a proportion to their respective populations) and just like any other rich people they donate to aid their interests.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:54
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The first step towards attacking unconditional American support for Israel's criminality would be to identify it correctly -- America will quit supporting Israel when the American business community does, particularly the American arms industry to which some 90% of US military aid to Israel is earmarked and the oil/financial industry, both of which benefit massively from military tensions in the region. While it's true that there needs to be some sort of popular basis for the policy which appears in some religious factions, that alone isn't enough, and it's not the important part -- since when have public attitudes seriously influenced US foreign policy?
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Jul 1, 2014 04:55
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Aurubin posted:You guys forget that the majority of US support stems from evangelicals actively trying to create the conditions for the second coming. Since those same evangelicals make up the core of the Republican party, no amount of sane political theory will stop the American right from their fanatical support for Israel. That said, I think the Jews deserve their own state, for the same reasons I think the Kurds and Roma do. A state for the Kurds and a state for the Roma is as divisive and problematic as a state for the French or a state for the Norwegians. Look at the tensions that develop when you draw states around ethnic and cultural boundaries. Riots, hate, yeah. What we need are secular, multicultural states finding the way forward. Israel is an apartheid state, based on dubious religious identity, horrifically oppressing a group of people who could learn as much from the Israelis as they could teach. It's time for a secular one state solution. Seriously.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:02
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computer parts posted:Support as in votes, maybe. Support as in money, eh there's a lot more rich Jews than rich Evangelicals (especially as a proportion to their respective populations) and just like any other rich people they donate to aid their interests. In that context it may be worth mentioning that Sheldon Adelson has been bankrolling a freely distributed daily newspaper whose sole purpose is to shore up support for one Benjamin Netanyahu, distorting the local media landscape in the process.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:04
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computer parts posted:Support as in votes, maybe. Support as in money, eh there's a lot more rich Jews than rich Evangelicals (especially as a proportion to their respective populations) and just like any other rich people they donate to aid their interests. While that helps, it being an easy appeal to your more right wing religious blocks helps some. You don't hsve to sell them very hard.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:05
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Ytlaya posted:Pretty sure no one is condoning the killings. It's kind of a fact that Israel's response here is actually a bigger deal than the crime itself though and will kill/ruin the lives of far more people. Israel's crimes generally warrant more of a discussion because there are countless people who actually defend them and their actions result in far more deaths/harm than any crimes committed by Palestinians. While it can seem like a circlejerk on this specific board (since most people here acknowledge how awful Israel is), in the broader picture Israel is often defended and supported. You're right, these murders are not being condoned. They're being excused and rationalized by those who are happy to devalue human life based on ethnic identity and who are too enmeshed in their hatred to see the colossal irony in that.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:06
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The Insect Court posted:You're right, these murders are not being condoned. They're being excused and rationalized by those who are happy to devalue human life based on ethnic identity and who are too enmeshed in their hatred to see the colossal irony in that. but enough about Israel.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:06
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xrunner posted:A state for the Kurds and a state for the Roma is as divisive and problematic as a state for the French or a state for the Norwegians. quote:Look at the tensions that develop when you draw states around ethnic and cultural boundaries. Riots, hate, yeah. quote:What we need are secular, multicultural states finding the way forward. quote:Israel is an apartheid state, based on dubious religious identity, horrifically oppressing a group of people who could learn as much from the Israelis as they could teach. It's time for a secular one state solution. Seriously.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:09
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What is the actual reason behind the settlements? I don't mean the realpolitik for their existence, but how are they soled to the public. If Israel accepts, or at least acknowledges, the Palestinian territory, how do they explain the building of settlements. Including internationally.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:10
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SedanChair posted:You're right. So where does that put Bibi? He's not interested in whether Israelis or Palestinians killed the kids before he decides what to do.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:12
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e X posted:What is the actual reason behind the settlements? I don't mean the realpolitik for their existence, but how are they soled to the public. If Israel accepts, or at least acknowledges, the Palestinian territory, how do they explain the building of settlements. Including internationally. Frankly they are sold as "this is are land!!" and they're unsurprisingly settled by what amounts to the dregs of upper/middle class Israeli society, tending towards the religious extremists very heavily.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:14
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e X posted:What is the actual reason behind the settlements? I don't mean the realpolitik for their existence, but how are they soled to the public. If Israel accepts, or at least acknowledges, the Palestinian territory, how do they explain the building of settlements. Including internationally. Quite a few Israeli Jews, particularly the National Religious stream, believe that Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) were promised to Jews by God, and therefore it is legitimate for Jews to settle there, regardless of pesky notions of international law. Others excuse it by saying that it doesn't matter because the Arabs will hate us anyway, or since it was taken from Jordan which held it illegally, then it's fine (there's a phrase in Hebrew: "he who steals from a thief is exempt from punishment"). Internationally, as far as I know not a single other country acknowledges Israeli claims to the West Bank, Gaza or the Golan Heights, although their enforcement in terms of banning products from there, investment, etc, is uneven. The EU has started cracking down more seriously recently, although they've been requiring Israel to label its settlement products for years. Most countries do not accept Jerusalem, pre or post 1967, as the Israeli capital, hosting their embassies around Tel Aviv, instead. And East Jerusalem is usually considered part of the West Bank as far as they are concerned.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:14
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e X posted:What is the actual reason behind the settlements? I don't mean the realpolitik for their existence, but how are they soled to the public. If Israel accepts, or at least acknowledges, the Palestinian territory, how do they explain the building of settlements. Including internationally. I don't think I've ever heard a justification given for the building of settlements that is meant to be palatable to the international community. "This is our land, the Palestinians are squatters" might work internally to rustle up the necessary settlers, but whenever people talk about the settlements outside of Israel they only discuss the realpolitik - whether the settlements will be built or not - and never even bring up why they're being built or whether they should be built. It's almost like everyone knows there isn't actually an argument in favor of the settlements, so they quietly skip discussing it altogether in favor of discussing how it will be used as a bargaining chip in negotiations.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:17
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CharlestheHammer posted:but enough about Israel. It's deeply ironic but also very sad that you're essentially the mirror image of the Israeli settler who dehumanizes Palestinian children killed by the IDF. It doesn't matter because his cause is in the right, or it's justified by past abuses by the other side, or even discussing it is just a distraction from the real atrocities being committed against his people. I hope you are able to eventually experience the sort of personal moral growth that would allow you to view Israeli Jews as full human beings, just as I hope that settler experiences the same epiphany. I wouldn't bet on either of you, though.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:23
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The Insect Court posted:It's deeply ironic but also very sad that you're essentially the mirror image of the Israeli settler who dehumanizes Palestinian children killed by the IDF. It doesn't matter because his cause is in the right, or it's justified by past abuses by the other side, or even discussing it is just a distraction from the real atrocities being committed against his people. Your hilarious. I never said one thing about them deserving it, in fact no one has. They said this is the kind of thing that is going to happen, but that is no more controversial then saying forcing any group into squalor and poverty will push them to crime. Its no more true for palestines than any group in the US. Keep on keeping on with that concern trolling you got going tho.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:27
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The Insect Court posted:It's deeply ironic but also very sad that you're essentially the mirror image of the Israeli settler who dehumanizes Palestinian children killed by the IDF. It doesn't matter because his cause is in the right, or it's justified by past abuses by the other side, or even discussing it is just a distraction from the real atrocities being committed against his people. Please quote where he justified mass killings of Israeli citizens as sad but necessary? And by the way, 3 people, by whom we don't even know were killed, don't count. Give quotes, and be specific
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Jul 1, 2014 05:56
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Welp. The matter of the killings' location does lead to another question, though-- are the settlements formally annexed by Israel, or are they still in lands administered (on paper) by the Palestinian Authority? Who has legal jurisdiction over those lands, and is a shred of that reflected in reality?
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Jul 1, 2014 05:56
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The Insect Court posted:It's deeply ironic but also very sad that you're essentially the mirror image of the Israeli settler who dehumanizes Palestinian children killed by the IDF. It doesn't matter because his cause is in the right, or it's justified by past abuses by the other side, or even discussing it is just a distraction from the real atrocities being committed against his people. Good custom title/post combos, but your gimmick is starting to wear a bit thin.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:58
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Ofaloaf posted:Welp. Well, legal jurisdiction is in theory determined based on international law, but Israel has a habit of using international laws as toilet paper, soooo..... Legally speaking it's Palestinian land, and Israel has not bothered to annex it because they don't give a poo poo about the laws to begin with. To quote wikipedia: quote:The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal,[10] and the United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[11][12] Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are also considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognise Israel's annexations of these territories.[13] The International Court of Justice also says these settlements are illegal in a 2004 advisory opinion.[14][15][16] In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and "runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations."[17] Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US.[18][19] Israel disputes the position of the international community and the legal arguments that were used to declare the settlements illegal.[20]
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Jul 1, 2014 05:59
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Heavy neutrino posted:Good custom title/post combos, but your gimmick is starting to wear a bit thin. Custom titles off, but last time I checked it was some scream of rage from an angry gun nut. Does this mean it's been replaced by some frothingly angry rant by an anti-Zionist about how I'm part of the secret ZOG world conspiracy? It's one of those issues that make some people just see red. Ytlaya posted:Pretty sure no one is condoning the killings. Sergg posted:Much as I am loathe to condone the murder of teenagers, this is an inescapable consequence of the social injustice of Apartheid when you try to de-facto annex another nation-state's territory and marginalize its citizens through the slow process of settler encroachment. In actual news, it seems that there has also been an uptick of rocket fire from the Gaza Strip but the articles I've read on it seem to indicate that it's not believed to originate from Hamas but from smaller terrorist groups. What that means about Hamas complicity in these murders, if anything, is debatable.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:39
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Heavy neutrino posted:The first step towards attacking unconditional American support for Israel's criminality would be to identify it correctly -- America will quit supporting Israel when the American business community does, particularly the American arms industry to which some 90% of US military aid to Israel is earmarked and the oil/financial industry, both of which benefit massively from military tensions in the region. Except, in the USA, it's a serious criminal offence for a business to boycott Israel. There's a whole government department set up to make sure that American companies don't do this and that individuals who contact a company, asking them to support a boycott, are reported to the authorities: http://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/enforcement/oac
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Jul 1, 2014 06:39
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The Insect Court posted:Custom titles off, but last time I checked it was some scream of rage from an angry gun nut. Does this mean it's been replaced by some frothingly angry rant by an anti-Zionist about how I'm part of the secret ZOG world conspiracy? It's one of those issues that make some people just see red. The Insect Court posted:In actual news, it seems that there has also been an uptick of rocket fire from the Gaza Strip but the articles I've read on it seem to indicate that it's not believed to originate from Hamas but from smaller terrorist groups. What that means about Hamas complicity in these murders, if anything, is debatable. That is not condoning.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:41
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The Insect Court posted:In actual news, it seems that there has also been an uptick of rocket fire from the Gaza Strip but the articles I've read on it seem to indicate that it's not believed to originate from Hamas but from smaller terrorist groups. What that means about Hamas complicity in these murders, if anything, is debatable. It's much likelier to do with Israeli attacks on the Gaza strip than to have any kind of relevance to anyone's complicity in these murders. Umiapik posted:Except, in the USA, it's a serious criminal offence for a business to boycott Israel. There's a whole government department set up to make sure that American companies don't do this and that individuals who contact a company, asking them to support a boycott, are reported to the authorities: I keep forgetting this law just because of how insane it is. I mean, how has it not been overturned by the Supreme Court's "money is speech" doctrine already? At least one good thing could come of that.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:44
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Umiapik posted:Except, in the USA, it's a serious criminal offence for a business to boycott Israel. There's a whole government department set up to make sure that American companies don't do this and that individuals who contact a company, asking them to support a boycott, are reported to the authorities: Jesus christ on a cracker, that's pretty rich considering, oh, Helms-Burton. Why is the US government so intent on sticking its nose where it doesn't belong?
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Jul 1, 2014 06:47
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PT6A posted:Jesus christ on a cracker, that's pretty rich considering, oh, Helms-Burton. The only place the US government doesn't belong is in my wallet, says the average american.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:58
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's much likelier to do with Israeli attacks on the Gaza strip than to have any kind of relevance to anyone's complicity in these murders. Because it only applies "when such refusal is pursuant to an agreement with the boycotting country, or a requirement of the boycotting country, or a request from or on behalf of the boycotting country."
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Jul 1, 2014 06:59
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