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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:Because it only applies "when such refusal is pursuant to an agreement with the boycotting country, or a requirement of the boycotting country, or a request from or on behalf of the boycotting country." That doesn't change anything fundamentally.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:02
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The Insect Court posted:It's deeply ironic but also very sad that you're essentially the mirror image of the Israeli settler who dehumanizes Palestinian children killed by the IDF. It doesn't matter because his cause is in the right, or it's justified by past abuses by the other side, or even discussing it is just a distraction from the real atrocities being committed against his people. I used to be very pro-Israel back in the early 2000s. I thought the Palestinians were a bunch of savages and cavemen. The Israelis never stopped building settlements in the West Bank and they simply increased their extremism and harassment of the local indigenous populations. There are a lot of liberal Israelis who want peace and I hope those people find their voice one day, but they are not the majority. They wore out any good will they had on my part years ago. 
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Jul 1, 2014 07:14
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CharlestheHammer posted:That doesn't change anything fundamentally. It does though. Instead of exercising your own 1A rights you're just complying with a foreign country's policy goals. It's a bad law but don't pretend that people are getting arrested for supporting BDS.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:14
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PT6A posted:Jesus christ on a cracker, that's pretty rich considering, oh, Helms-Burton. The US loves to regulate the things its citizens do overseas, unsurprising from the country that will kidnap foreigners and put them on trial in the US for crimes committed abroad.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:16
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:It does though. Instead of exercising your own 1A rights you're just complying with a foreign country's policy goals. It's a bad law but don't pretend that people are getting arrested for supporting BDS. Like I said that changes nothing fundamentally. Like I don't think anyone was talking about arresting people, just that the law exists.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:In that context it may be worth mentioning that Sheldon Adelson has been bankrolling a freely distributed daily newspaper whose sole purpose is to shore up support for one Benjamin Netanyahu, distorting the local media landscape in the process. You know who prints his hate rag for the white supremacists in Israel? Haaretz prints it for him because its an extra source of income and nobody buys center-left newspapers in Israel.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:35
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on the left posted:The US loves to regulate the things its citizens do overseas, unsurprising from the country that will kidnap foreigners and put them on trial in the US for crimes committed abroad. *its non wealthy citizens. Its really just a favorites game anyway, any massive corporation could outright declare that they refuse to use Chinese imports (not that they would because there's nothing like that sweet sweet totally not inhumane labor) and they would get cheered by droves of politicians for taking another whack at a wedge with our best frenemy. God forbid you try to take the same stance with a political mainstay like Israel though, despite the extreme human abuses running rampant over there. Its so baldly political that I can see why people would scoff at it, they're supposed to obfuscate a bit better than that.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:37
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Umiapik posted:Except, in the USA, it's a serious criminal offence for a business to boycott Israel. There's a whole government department set up to make sure that American companies don't do this and that individuals who contact a company, asking them to support a boycott, are reported to the authorities: I'm not sure how this attacks my point. I mean, if US support of Israel became a serious financial liability for dominant US industries (say, because a majority of non-US Western nations began boycotting US manufacturers of arms and technology who sell to Israel), that law would fly off the books in roughly however long in takes to fly every member of congress back into D.C. on a day's notice. There are situations where US foreign policy flies in the face of even the business community's wishes, but the only example I can think of right now -- Cuba -- is pretty special, holding as one of the few symbols of resistance against US domination. edit: I missed that the law was about agreements with foreign countries and said dumb things. Heavy neutrino fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 07:40
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GuyinCognito posted:You know who prints his hate rag for the white supremacists in Israel? Haaretz prints it for him because its an extra source of income and nobody buys center-left newspapers in Israel. I don't see how calling even the most racist Israeli Jews "white supremacists" makes sense. They are Jewish supremacists. In any event, that is no longer entirely true. They have their own press, which they bought from the faltering Maariv; it's been operative since February, and they're slowly getting more and more printed there.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:49
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't see how calling even the most racist Israeli Jews "white supremacists" makes sense. They are Jewish supremacists. Most jews and zionists are white. They bring in some tokenism from Africa to say they are multicultural but they are still white. White supremacists. You know if only the hate filled ethnic cleansers loved their children more then stealing land, murdering and raping Palestinians, kidnapping and torturing and killing Palestinian children, then this would never have happened. Israel and the concept of Israel needs to be erased from the pages of history.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:00
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I genuinely would not be surprised if Mossad killed the teens.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:02
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GuyinCognito posted:Most jews and zionists are white. They bring in some tokenism from Africa to say they are multicultural but they are still white. White supremacists. quote:You know if only the hate filled ethnic cleansers loved their children more then stealing land, murdering and raping Palestinians, kidnapping and torturing and killing Palestinian children, then this would never have happened. Israel and the concept of Israel needs to be erased from the pages of history.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:10
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Jul 1, 2014 08:16
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Why are there so much media attention on three dead Israelis and comparitively almost nothing on the five Palestinians killed in the search for them? The Guardian even said some of those killed were minors. If we're going to want to 'listen to both sides equally' we should act like it for a change.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:23
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:Why are there so much media attention on three dead Israelis and almost nothing on the five Palestinians killed in the search for them? The Guardian even said some of those killed were minors. As for the Palestinian casualties, I heard is that there was one 13-year-old, one mentally disabled man, and an elderly couple killed. Those were especially heinous, but there seem to have been more. At least 9, so the Facebook rumor mill has it.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:29
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PT6A posted:Jesus christ on a cracker, that's pretty rich considering, oh, Helms-Burton. Because for some reason our government is convinced it's the international police and is somehow responsible to/for every other country in the world, whether they want us there or not. I have no idea why considering it's earned us nothing but well-deserved hatred, but there you go.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:34
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Title makes it sound like a mini 9/11. If only we cared about 3 teens. 
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Jul 1, 2014 08:44
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It was my impression that the Gaza bombings were in response to recent rocket attacks, not related to the kidnapping.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:46
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Absurd Alhazred posted:This is not very productive thinking. If all you have is an all-consuming hatred of Israeli Jews borne of sympathy for Palestinians, then you are not going to get anywhere in either understanding the situation or presenting viable solutions. My hatred for zionism and the state of Israel could never compare to the hatred that Israelis have towards Palestinians. I would never murder or rape anyone. Not even a hate filled zionist who's only wish in life is to exterminate and expel all non-jews from greater Israel. I already understand the situation and know the solution. The solution is limited bombing of their WMD sites and massive worldwide sanctions.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:48
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GuyinCognito posted:My hatred for zionism and the state of Israel could never compare to the hatred that Israelis have towards Palestinians. I would never murder or rape anyone. Not even a hate filled zionist who's only wish in life is to exterminate and expel all non-jews from greater Israel. quote:I already understand the situation and know the solution. The solution is limited bombing of their WMD sites and massive worldwide sanctions.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:59
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GuyinCognito posted:You know if only the hate filled ethnic cleansers loved their children more then stealing land, murdering and raping Palestinians, kidnapping and torturing and killing Palestinian children, then this would never have happened. Israel and the concept of Israel needs to be erased from the pages of history. GuyinCognito posted:My hatred for zionism and the state of Israel could never compare to the hatred that Israelis have towards Palestinians. I would never murder or rape anyone. Not even a hate filled zionist who's only wish in life is to exterminate and expel all non-jews from greater Israel. It's a GuyinCognito post when you see him mention his Solution To The Zionist Problem and are relieved when it's just a bombing campaign and an embargo. dumpieXL posted:Title makes it sound like a mini 9/11. The Israeli public seems to go crazy about kidnappings, even more so than just outright murders. And Palestinians seem to be similarly obsessed with Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. Hamas got a thousand prisoners for a single IDF private, it's not too surprising that they'd try again. It's not huge international news yet, the reason it's a thread is to keep the usual I/P poo poo from polluting the Middle East thread. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 09:00
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Do the people asking for bombing of Israel actually realize it's a nuclear-armed state with one of the most modern air forces and THE most modern missile defense network in the world?
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Jul 1, 2014 09:14
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Israel will not rest until Palestine is completely destroyed. We shouldn't flinch from the word genocide. This is not the commonly understood extinguishing of a race through direct violence but a slow suffocation of a culture through the perpetual tightening of a noose. What we're watching is a mirror of our own country's foundation through the genocide of the Native Americans. The severity of the situation seems to be lost on the western media though, I just heard a "journalist" on the bbc ask a guest "How can we be absolutely sure that Hamas isn't responsible?" neglecting that they hadn't presented a single scrap of evidence that it was Hamas in the first place.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:23
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Assuming that this thread also acts as a general Israel thread, I'm wondering if anybody else has been following the asylum seeker odyssey. We had a thread about it that was closed a couple of months ago, when they ended up marching on Jerusalem in protest of their conditions. They had since been relegated to a refugee camp, Holot, near the internment camp, Saharonim. (Or is it an internment camp vs. a prison? I am not sure the translation works well, and I guess it's charged, anyway.) A few days ago many of them marched out of it and erected a tent camp near the Israeli-Egyptian border, protesting their harsh conditions. Israeli authorities responded with their usual discretion and concern for the human rights of a disadvantaged population: quote:Israel-Egypt border - Israeli police have raided a protest camp near the Israeli-Egyptian border, arresting the 1,000 African asylum seekers protesting there, and injuring dozens. The story itself has photos of the event and aftermath.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:36
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Salt Fish posted:Israel will not rest until Palestine is completely destroyed. We shouldn't flinch from the word genocide. This is not the commonly understood extinguishing of a race through direct violence but a slow suffocation of a culture through the perpetual tightening of a noose. What we're watching is a mirror of our own country's foundation through the genocide of the Native Americans. The severity of the situation seems to be lost on the western media though, I just heard a "journalist" on the bbc ask a guest "How can we be absolutely sure that Hamas isn't responsible?" neglecting that they hadn't presented a single scrap of evidence that it was Hamas in the first place. Excuse me? Hamas has the explicit goal to destroy Israel and the arabs tried it several times.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:38
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Israelis, like the settlers of all European colonies implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) want to eventually take all the native population's land and property. As they become more established it becomes more overt but the desire is always there. In this context the peace process is an interesting modern PR cover for colonialism. Whereas in the past the natives were violent savages (because they reacted to the violent appropriation of their land and resources) who needed civilising through sublimation into the white settler state nowadays they are bad faith negotiators because Israel has no desire to adhere to any agreement that is negotiated. Stop hitting yourselves natives. The pretense put forward by Zionists that Israelis are losing faith in the 'peace process' is made mockery of by A cursory glance at Israeli actions. For instance the reaction to the Oslo accords, a great deal for Israel (if it wanted any kind of negotiated settlement) and a lovely one for Palestine yet the Israeli reaction was to assassinate the leader who negotiated the historic accord and quickly abandon all commitment to it.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:42
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:Why are there so much media attention on three dead Israelis and comparitively almost nothing on the five Palestinians killed in the search for them? The Guardian even said some of those killed were minors. 
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Jul 1, 2014 09:46
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GaussianCopula posted:Excuse me? Arab nations have started two wars, the 1948 war which was after Israel's unilateral declaration of independence, another in Yom Kippur when Israel had already occupied the land of said Arab nations after an offensive war. Hard to claim that they didn't have justifications for war in either case. Hamas does have an explicit goal to destroy Israel, though considering their capabilities they might as well have the explicit goal to destroy the Moon. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 09:48
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Israelis, like the settlers of all European colonies implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) want to eventually take all the native population's land and property. As they become more established it becomes more overt but the desire is always there. quote:In this context the peace process is an interesting modern PR cover for colonialism. Whereas in the past the natives were violent savages (because they reacted to the violent appropriation of their land and resources) who needed civilising through sublimation into the white settler state nowadays they are bad faith negotiators because Israel has no desire to adhere to any agreement that is negotiated. Stop hitting yourselves natives. There is only one Israeli society apparently. This Israeli society does one thing and then another and then kills its own leaders. I suppose an alternate theory would be that Israeli society is multifaceted with many opposing forces, in which some dominate over others under different historical contexts, and which have changed dramatically with diplomatic cover from the US, and one might ponder the change in, say, the stream that Rabin's assassin comes from, which used to be diffident and hesitant about warmongering until the victory in 1967 convinced it that salvation was at hand, and one might wonder what that stream's current strength is based upon, and whether there are any faults in this base; one might also wonder what was it that pushed the architect of the most vicious policies reacting to the first Intifada to make peace with Arafat, that man with whose organization it had been illegal to come in contact just a few years beforehand. But that would require nuance, and sounds like work, and it seems a lot of posters here are content to bloviate their contempt for Israeli society and Zionism in lieu of presenting any solutions or interesting commentary.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:49
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GaussianCopula posted:Excuse me? "The Arabs" may have tried that but on this day, today, there is a serious asymmetry of power surrounding Palestine and it should be Israel's prerogative to promote peace while it holds all of the cards. If Israel decides that the P.R hit is worth it they can crush all of the disputed territories and annex them in a week.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:51
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Absurd Alhazred posted:More than half of Israelis are descended from Jews who fled North African and Middle Eastern countries, so it is quite a stretch to paint them as "white". It not at all a stretch to describe those who founded Israel and drove the process behind it as "white", or the upper class that continued to dominate Israeli society for decades afterwards. They were mostly Ashkenazis, speaking European languages and having a Western education. The North African/Middle Eastern migration happened after the founding of Israel, when the Arab nations expulsed the Jews as a reaction.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:54
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ANIME AKBAR posted:http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/bodies-settlers-found-west-bank-2014630233813658785.html What are the chances Israel demolished two houses at random and just blamed the occupants because of divine providence. Sort of the modern equivalent of those ridiculous trial by water deals of the middle ages?
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Jul 1, 2014 09:54
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Salt Fish posted:"The Arabs" may have tried that but on this day, today, there is a serious asymmetry of power surrounding Palestine and it should be Israel's prerogative to promote peace while it holds all of the cards. If Israel decides that the P.R hit is worth it they can crush all of the disputed territories and annex them in a week. Well, I agree with you that Israel is in the position of power but dont you think that it would be a great first step from the Palstine's to stop voting for an organization that has the stated goal to extinguish the state of Israel? Sure they might not be able to today, but I guess the jews dont like people with such things in their program. You see, they have made some bad expiriences with a certain austrian painter who was in prison when he wrote his ideas about extinguishing all jews (they did not have a state at that time).
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Jul 1, 2014 10:24
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I'm sure if the next uppity Hitler were to try it today he would be bombarded with White Phosphorous quicker than you could say Mein Kampf.
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Jul 1, 2014 10:32
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GaussianCopula posted:Well, I agree with you that Israel is in the position of power but dont you think that it would be a great first step from the Palstine's to stop voting for an organization that has the stated goal to extinguish the state of Israel? Alright, let's see you being oppressed by the State of Israel for six decades and see if that election platform doesn't start sounding pretty awesome to you. Every time Palestinians have done a first step that hasn't been violence they've been met with jack poo poo by Israelis. I don't agree with them but I can't really blame them for going for the one single way that they can affect their situation in some way, at the least.
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Jul 1, 2014 10:42
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That line of thinking is especially toxic as one of the historical reasons for the establishment of a Jewish state was that they had historically been persecuted. Maybe in a couple of decades some country will decide that Palestine needs its own state and will be given its own licence to commit war crimes and human rights atrocities.
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Jul 1, 2014 10:45
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Trial by water was 100% effective at dealing with witches.
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Jul 1, 2014 10:49
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GaussianCopula posted:Hamas has the explicit goal to destroy Israel and the arabs tried it several times. Likud has the explicit goal to destroy Palestine, and they've pretty much succeeded already. But surely it's Hamas saying that they want something that they have no chance of accomplishing that is the real problem here. GaussianCopula posted:Well, I agree with you that Israel is in the position of power but dont you think that it would be a great first step from the Palstine's to stop voting for an organization that has the stated goal to extinguish the state of Israel? Sure they might not be able to today, but I guess the jews dont like people with such things in their program. You see, they have made some bad expiriences with a certain austrian painter who was in prison when he wrote his ideas about extinguishing all jews (they did not have a state at that time). Don't you think it would be a great first step for Israel to stop voting for an organization that has the stated goal to extinguish the state of Palestine? Absurd Alhazred posted:There is only one Israeli society apparently. This Israeli society does one thing and then another and then kills its own leaders. I suppose an alternate theory would be that Israeli society is multifaceted with many opposing forces, in which some dominate over others under different historical contexts, and which have changed dramatically with diplomatic cover from the US, and one might ponder the change in, say, the stream that Rabin's assassin comes from, which used to be diffident and hesitant about warmongering until the victory in 1967 convinced it that salvation was at hand, and one might wonder what that stream's current strength is based upon, and whether there are any faults in this base; one might also wonder what was it that pushed the architect of the most vicious policies reacting to the first Intifada to make peace with Arafat, that man with whose organization it had been illegal to come in contact just a few years beforehand. Nobody has said much of anything about Israeli socity, which is multifaceted with many opposing forces and so on and so forth. People have said things about the State of Israel, which has had a remarkably consistent policy of loving over the Palestinians pretty much since its founding. You conflating these two makes you look like a bad-faith rear end in a top hat out to muddle the waters and poo poo up the discussion. Or I suppose that it could be that understanding that a state and a society aren't the same thing would require nuance and sounds like work, and it seems like you are more interested in arguing against the position that you want to argue against, despite the fact that nobody actually has advocated it.
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Jul 1, 2014 10:49
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Cerebral Bore posted:Likud has the explicit goal to destroy Palestine, and they've pretty much succeeded already. But surely it's Hamas saying that they want something that they have no chance of accomplishing that is the real problem here. First of all there is no state of Palestine. Second, their solution actually worked in Germany/Poland. There were over 12,000,000 ethnic Germans who lived in the eastern parts of Europa (including former German territories) which were explused by the differend states under Soviet control. Those people were resettled in Germany and started a new live and noone seriously expects to have a "right to return" to Ostpreußen. I can not understand why the Arabs did not do the same for the Palastines except for the fact that they wanted to use them as a weapon against Israel. Had the Palastines accepted the UN resolution in 1947 they would have their state now. But they didn't. They wanted to destroy Israel. Actions have consquences.
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Jul 1, 2014 11:01
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GaussianCopula posted:First of all there is no state of Palestine. Literally advocating for ethnic cleansing
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Jul 1, 2014 11:05
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