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I would suggest running some quick-- no real writeup-- 1-on-1 matches with the new version just to get a feel for how to balance the points. Jazz doesn't even have to do this, just get a bunch of people to post pastbins of the combat log for various combinations of fighters, find out if the new combat changes have... well, changed things. The relative value of things MIGHT not have changed, we just need to find out. Also, new arenas might be fun for the team games. Put in some watery moats to swim through/jump over?
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Jul 7, 2014 22:06
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What would that change? Are AI fighters smart enough to avoid dodging/charging into lava and deep water now? I'm not sure how much that would add, beyond adding a bit of time for fighters to navigate to each other (which is also a buff to archers, of course). Also, Jazzimus... in your round-robin idea, fighters probably wouldn't get any extra points until the playoffs, right?
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Jul 7, 2014 22:19
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Spermy Smurf posted:I am half mast just reading that. That sounds awesome! I will carry the god damned team on my back, you'll see.
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Jul 7, 2014 22:20
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I volunteer to be on bad munki's team, if only to play a wrestling gremlin and laugh at his failure.
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Jul 7, 2014 22:26
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In all honesty, Jazzimus, unless you really, really like running and transcribing these fights, call it a day. You did God's work. You've done enough. Don't do another tournament.
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Jul 7, 2014 22:29
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Bad Munki posted:I will carry the god damned team on my back, you'll see. It's a date. You and me against the world. Also to the guy saying not to run anymore: This would be set up so Jazz doesn't have to run all the fights himself.
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Jul 7, 2014 22:37
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Iunnrais posted:Also, new arenas might be fun for the team games. Put in some watery moats to swim through/jump over? I was considering the idea of letting teams design their own arenas. Home-field advantage! There would have to be ground rules for that, though. Some extra cover protecting melee-heavy teams would probably be okay. An uncrossable sea of magma protecting an all-archer team would not be. ZeeToo posted:Also, Jazzimus... in your round-robin idea, fighters probably wouldn't get any extra points until the playoffs, right? I'm not quite sure about that yet. I don't want to give teams extra points for winning, because that would just make the strong teams stronger and the weak teams weaker as the season progresses, and the talent gaps would become too large and the fights less interesting in the weeks before the playoffs start. On the other hand, giving extra points for losing rewards failure and punishes success, so that's out, too. One option I'm considering would be a small weekly reward for players who continue to participate, which could add up to become enough for an extra skill point or piece of armor or weapon upgrade after three or four weeks. Players who sign up and then drop out would not get this reward. Maybe just visiting the website while logged in could be enough to trigger the weekly reward. This rewards participation, but one problem would be that it could punish players who are unlucky enough to be stuck with a teammate that doesn't participate. Jazzimus Prime fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 7, 2014 |
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Jul 7, 2014 22:48
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Maybe choose a "Man of the Match?" Where the individual most impressive or audacious fighter - not necessarily from the winning team - gets a small point bonus. Alternatively, the winning team gets a small point bonus for every member, whereas only the best fighter of the losing team gets a point bonus, but it's slightly larger. That might be enough to stop victorious teams from outstripping losers too fast.
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Jul 7, 2014 23:16
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Alternately, every team with me on it gets some bonus points, and I get 2x bonus points. That should keep things roughly equal.
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Jul 7, 2014 23:21
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ZeeToo posted:What would that change? Are AI fighters smart enough to avoid dodging/charging into lava and deep water now? I'm not sure how much that would add, beyond adding a bit of time for fighters to navigate to each other (which is also a buff to archers, of course). Partially, yes, I thought Toady did mention improving the AI when he was gutting it to replace other systems. I may be wrong in that. But more to the point, Jumping and Climbing are now skills in addition to Swimming, and it would be interesting to make use of that. The "home team designs their field (within limits)" idea is neat. I like that.
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Jul 8, 2014 01:15
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The new version will untie attack speed from movement speed, which is a pretty big change as far as arena is concerned. I can't remember any other changes that will really affect arena mode.
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Jul 8, 2014 01:53
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I'd be leery of giving different point rewards for winners and losers, just because it has too much potential to be unbalanced in one direction or the other. Winning is the reward for winning; you're doing well enough just getting your team to the playoffs and advancing there. I'd also suggest we give rewards based on fights, not real-world time. Otherwise, we could get into a situation like this tournament where an interruption ends up making someone weirdly overpowered.
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Jul 8, 2014 02:19
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Maugrim posted:Well, previous tournaments have used a mod, which I believe was created by Vox Nihili, to balance the combat better and reduce some of the more nonsensical aspects. I imagine that will need a bit of adaptation to work in the new version of the game. And since Vox Nihili has been MIA for quite some time, it will probably need a few other knowledgeable people hacking it together. I strongly support this, even if it's just a minitournament. DF2014 is bound to have all kinds of hilarious failure modes on release, and it'll need some pounding on just to figure out what needs to be modded to make it tournament-balanced anyways.
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Jul 8, 2014 02:27
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If you want to make things particularly interesting, you could do things draft style... First, everyone submits their builds independently. Then, the pre-season begins: a series of 20-man-or-whatever battle royale FFAs, groups chosen randomly. Winning the FFA doesn't get you anything more than a token prize (lead codpiece?), but the logs of the battles, with or without narration, are posted. Next, 16 (or whatever) captains take turns drafting characters to form the final teams. It's overly-complicated, but that seems to hold true to the spirit of Dwarf Fortress.
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Jul 8, 2014 02:49
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Definitely making a king of the hill style arena. The dwarfs have legends of such an arena at the end of days. They call it, The Cragnarock 
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Jul 8, 2014 04:59
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ZeeToo posted:I'd be leery of giving different point rewards for winners and losers, just because it has too much potential to be unbalanced in one direction or the other. Winning is the reward for winning; you're doing well enough just getting your team to the playoffs and advancing there. Agreed, this was the same thought I had. ZeeToo posted:I'd also suggest we give rewards based on fights, not real-world time. Otherwise, we could get into a situation like this tournament where an interruption ends up making someone weirdly overpowered. Well, I said "per week" working with the assumption that we'd get one round (8 matches) of the regular season done each week. What it would really have come down to would be participation between each fight. So it would be based on fights, like you said, instead of on time, like I probably mistakenly implied. Jazzimus Prime fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 07:30
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The new release is amazing and I cant wait for the next arena event to use it.  Fuligin posted:I came upon an encampment of sleeping goblins. Easily, I went from each to each, taking their heads as trophies. I bashed in the throat of their leader and watched him suffocate. When one awoke he ran screaming and calling for help from his comrades, helpless to stop me as I killed the rest. Finally, as I slowly approached him he tried to climb a tree. I slashed him open from behind and pulled him down by yanking on his intestines.
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Jul 8, 2014 07:40
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bladedsmoke posted:Maybe choose a "Man of the Match?" Where the individual most impressive or audacious fighter - not necessarily from the winning team - gets a small point bonus. Although, if it's based on some kind of objective formula (say, most in-match kills, with the tiebreaker going to the smaller fighter), that would probably be more worthy of consideration. bladedsmoke posted:Alternatively, the winning team gets a small point bonus for every member, whereas only the best fighter of the losing team gets a point bonus, but it's slightly larger. That might be enough to stop victorious teams from outstripping losers too fast. This... might work, but I'd have to give it some more thought on how it would be implemented. I'd like to avoid having losing teams have a single powerhouse and a bunch of minor players. Ninjavitis posted:If you want to make things particularly interesting, you could do things draft style... This is a pretty good idea, I'll give it some thought. Anchors posted:Definitely making a king of the hill style arena. Very cool idea, but that King-Of-The-Hill stuff implies multiple Z-levels, which could make it more challenging to have screenshots in the write-up. I've heard from the main DF thread that some third-party work has been done to support multi-Z-level overhead screenshots, but I don't know how long it will take to be available in the new version... and either way, screenshots might be problematic if the hill is TOO steep. How steep is too steep? That's what testing is for, I guess. SynthOrange posted:The new release is amazing and I cant wait for the next arena event to use it. I just barely did beat the release of the new version, it seems. 
Jazzimus Prime fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 09:57
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Jazzimus Prime posted:I just barely did beat the release of the new version, it seems. Some interesting Arena specific options as well: The_Final_Stand posted:The Arena now has functions to change the Conflict Level from "Encounter" (no combat), "Horseplay" (grabbing and releasing) (which trains Fighter and Wrestler really loving fast at the cost of exhausting the fighters), Training (Striking, but pulling punches), Brawl (fight to unconciousness with fists, ignore downed combatants), Non-Lethal (As above, but keep them down, sometimes killing if outnumbered?), Lethal (Strike to kill), and No Quarter (As above, but kill even cowering enemies).
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Jul 9, 2014 01:11
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bladedsmoke posted:Maybe choose a "Man of the Match?" Where the individual most impressive or audacious fighter - not necessarily from the winning team - gets a small point bonus. The twist: The man of the match can choose to give their reward to a member of their team if they choose.
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Jul 9, 2014 04:12
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I'm thinking the website should be ready for the new tournament in a couple of weeks, but whether the new version of Dwarf Fortress will be ready to support the tournament at that time is another question. There's also the fact that Vox Nihili put in a lot of work on modding DF2010 for the tournament, as well as balancing point costs and the like, and we'll need to do all of that all over again for the new DF2014 version, probably without the benefit of his expertise as he's finishing law school. So I can't say for sure when we'll be starting the next tournament just yet. We'll start a new thread when the time comes, and keep the current thread open in the meantime to keep everyone posted on the status of things.
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Jul 12, 2014 07:01
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I can't wait, I'm excited to participate this time! I hope someone types up a newbie guide or something, because I don't really understand the mechanics of this at all.
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Jul 12, 2014 14:00
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Ignite Memories posted:I don't really understand the mechanics of this at all. The end of this particular tournament was something of an upset. Generally speaking, go big and/or go home.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:20
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 WARNING: A BUNCH OF BORING PROGRAMMING-RELATED poo poo AHEAD Ugh, I spent most of the weekend changing the whole site to use MySQLi PHP functions instead of MySQL PHP functions, since the latter are already deprecated, and apparently will be unsupported entirely very soon. I tested those changes and everything is working well. But why couldn't the open-source community just continue supporting a bunch of old code that works, I wonder? The good news is, this has given me the chance to become familiar again with a bunch of my old code, some of which I haven't touched in almost four years. Also, while I was digging into the code, I also made a few small changes to the pages for viewing match bets, viewing player bets, and viewing tournament schedules, since I wasn't happy with the fact that you had to scroll all the way to the bottom of the pages to scroll back and forth to the next and previous rounds. So that's done, too. So with that done, here are the remaining big changes I've started on, and want to finish before we start the next tournament: -- Support for multiple "commissioners" who can each run league fights. This will get the tournaments done faster, and ZeeToo and Spermy Smurf have already expressed their willingness to help out with this part of the next tournament. Priority: High. Anticipated coding/testing effort: Small. Just requires some small code and database changes, and the database changes are already in place. -- Support for the new version of Dwarf Fortress, while at the same time still supporting the old version, and easily being able to support any future versions as they are released. Priority: Medium-High. An easier approach would be to change the site so that it only works for the newest version, and forgets about any older versions used for any previous tournaments. But I think that the "right" approach would be to change both the database and the PHP script that generates macros, so that we can see which version of DF we are generating a macro for, and then do just that. Anticipated coding/testing effort: Medium-small. Only requires changes to one PHP script, but requires a few more back-end database changes. -- Support for MULTIPLE LEAGUES! This would allow more than one tournament to be run at the same time, and each tournament could have their own rules! With this in place, if ZeeToo or Spermy Smurf or someone else decides that they are particularly dedicated, they could use the site to run their own one-on-one tournament in their own thread, while I run the team tournament in a different thread! Priority: Medium-Low. Anticipated coding/testing effort: Medium-high. Requires a significant change to the back-end database and changes to quite a few of the web scripts. -- Testing, modding, and rebalancing the newest release of Dwarf Fortress for the new tournament. Priority: Medium. We could always use an older version if this holds things up for too long. Anticipated coding/testing effort: Unknown. I've barely even modded the older versions of Dwarf Fortress, and I haven't even touched the newest one yet. Jazzimus Prime fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 06:34
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scamtank, Leperflesh and markus_cz are already playing around with getting some goon-created mod to work with the new version, I believe. I expect you'll be able to get some support with the last task if you ask in the main DF thread. I've never been tempted to dive into Dwarf Fortress modding but I would definitely be up for running some fights. If nothing else, you need a British caster to balance things out. Monty Python presents: Dwarf Fortress!
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Jul 14, 2014 11:33
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Jazzimus Prime posted:
Saying that PHP -- especially PHP's MySQL interface -- "works" is a bit of a stretch. That said, mysql_escape_string has been in PHP for 14 years, has been deprecated for 5, and still exists because the PHP devs have an irrational aversion to breaking existing code no matter how busted and insecure it is. I'll believe that they're actually removing the mysql_* API a week after it actually happens and not before. To actually answer your question: probably because the old code is a tragic clusterfuck from both a usability and security standpoint and they're sick of getting blamed for it. Although to really fix this they would need to burn down most of PHP and start fresh rather than just replacing a library here and there.
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Jul 14, 2014 13:39
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^^^ Well, the old MySQL interface at least seemed to work for a project of this small of a scale, but architecturally, I can see that MySQLi makes a lot more sense even without knowing what's under the metaphorical hood. ^^^ So... I'm currently implementing the "multiple commissioners" feature, and it got me to thinking. It wouldn't be particularly difficult to build in a rule where a commissioner wouldn't be allowed to run a fight that his own fighter/team participates in. This probably isn't absolutely necessary, since I'm sure we're all honest people here, but it might be worth doing just for peace of mind of all the participants. Maybe even extend the restriction to matches that a commissioner has a particularly large bet placed on; again, for peace of mind. Thoughts?
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Jul 15, 2014 08:13
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Just leave an out if every commissioner somehow trips the ethics alarm (commish fights commish and -every-one bets huge)
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Jul 15, 2014 11:28
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Both your proposed rules make sense to me. Maybe if a commissioner chooses to run a fight they've already bet on, their bet is returned and can be immediately invested elsewhere?
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Jul 15, 2014 12:26
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I know I would never screw with Bad Munki's fight. Never.
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Jul 15, 2014 12:45
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I'm okay with the rule, but if you have worries about a commissioner stacking a fight, maybe they shouldn't be a commissioner. It's also a really small and sad area to be corrupt, anyway.
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Jul 15, 2014 18:51
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Spermy Smurf posted:I know I would never screw with Bad Munki's fight. Never. Uhhh, why would you need to?
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Jul 15, 2014 19:31
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ZeeToo posted:I'm okay with the rule, but if you have worries about a commissioner stacking a fight, maybe they shouldn't be a commissioner. These are pretty much my thoughts on the matter.
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Jul 15, 2014 21:28
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It is, but if there's the means to keep temptation out of the picture, then why not?
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Jul 15, 2014 21:45
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ZeeToo posted:It's also a really small and sad area to be corrupt, anyway.
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Jul 15, 2014 22:44
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I didn't mean to imply I didn't trust anyone  The multiple Commissioners code is complete, and support on the site for DF2014 should be finished by tomorrow. In addition I've gone in and cleaned up a few things in some parts of the web interface to make it look nicer, particularly in the pages to view schedules and bets, adding links at the top of the presentation pane to view the next/previous rounds for easier navigation. I also changed the pages to view standings, schedules, and brackets so that when you're logged in to the site, your fighter's team will be highlighted on each of those pages, in the same way that your fighter had been highlighted on those pages for the one-on-one tournaments. It looks like I might need to make one additional change to support the new tournament. Previously, you would create a fighter before joining a new tournament, then apply for that fighter to join the tournament. Since the next tournament is team-based, I'd like for you first to be able to apply as a player to participate in the tournament, and then create your fighter after everyone has joined and the teams are set. That way, you and your teammates can decide what mix of builds you want to go with, instead of being stuck with whatever fighter you had picked before finding out who your teammates would be. It's a little different than how things are set up now, and the site will need to be updated to support that.
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Jul 17, 2014 19:33
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This will still give macro files so the fighters will be set up properly, right? Setting up 10 fighters manually, double and triple checking, and then running the fight would be a lot of work. I am amazed at the website skill you've got and amount of effort that you are putting into this for our enjoyment. Thanks a lot.
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Jul 17, 2014 20:09
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Spermy Smurf posted:This will still give macro files so the fighters will be set up properly, right? Yes, which is why it needs some changes to support DF2014. The macros generated for DF2010 don't give the correct results on DF2014. That's the part that will be done by tomorrow -- rebalancing everything for DF2014 is a whole separate effort. 
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Jul 17, 2014 20:14
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I have to say, it's really very cool of you to put all this work in. Cheers!
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Jul 17, 2014 20:16
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Ugh, I'm so loving excited, I am totally in for the next 3 years
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Jul 18, 2014 00:34
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