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Garbo posted:Lewis did, a hilarious "Winterkewl is lying and we have proof but we're not going to show you guys the proof that would be crazy!" statement readable in full here Some of the posts in that sub-reddit about the whole ordeal are gems: quote:DC Comics presumably got money from Superman 64. Nobody blames the comic company for it being a horrible game. All kinds of developers have made horrible licensing decisions that led to their downfall. Nobody blames Spielberg for the video game crash in 1982 which was highlighted by the ET game's massive failure. I think the major difference here is how much they seemed to love being the face of the game, at least at first during the short time after the kickstarter finished but before development really started to hit the skids and it became apparent things were coming apart.
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Jul 19, 2014 19:44
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So the only difference between the Yogventure and your average superdupertotallyfuckingawesome mod for Game X, starring an idea guy and a handful of modelers, was an embarrassing amount of money?
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Jul 19, 2014 20:04
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Bieeardo posted:So the only difference between the Yogventure and your average superdupertotallyfuckingawesome mod for Game X, starring an idea guy and a handful of modelers, was an embarrassing amount of money? I think this time the idea guy was probably aware that the game Yogscast wanted to make was well beyond the capabilities of his company, but said he could make it anyway because he had his heart set on making a Yogscast game for some dumb reason. He probably hoped he could hire some genius programmer, that would magically fix everything, with all the money they were going to get from the KS. Yogscast believed the guy could do it because they are dumb and gullible.
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Jul 19, 2014 20:09
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Shalinor posted:Absolutely everything about that arrangement is bog-standard for game startups. Including the upfront payments with limited means of recouping. That kind of business is often done on a handshake, and it's insulting to be an equal partner in an enterprise but be doled out a monthly stipend (that isn't enough to cover your bills / is well below your salary) by your partner. You just split it equally at the start, and all go in for back-end rev shares, and everyone trusts everyone else to not be a douche / manage their money responsibly to keep afloat. Its really that way in software? To me that's crazy. In startups in my field (more hardware) its totally different, everyone hired is not on an equity share except for maybe 2 or 3 people, and the pay is generally less than at an established company for everyone else (bimonthly) with the opportunity for rapid advancement if the company grows and/or some options. Its not that great for the people with a share either, they're generally living off of their savings except for maybe a small bump during later investment rounds.
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Jul 19, 2014 20:14
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Remember that most of the "special things you can't do in Minecraft" that Yogventures was going to add were added to Minceraft proper within a year of that kickstarter happening, and most had been available in mods long before that. Also the Yogventures game would have removed the ability to do most of real time terrain molding and crafting stuff you do in Minecraft.
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Jul 19, 2014 20:14
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Uncle Jam posted:Its really that way in software? To me that's crazy. In startups in my field (more hardware) its totally different, everyone hired is not on an equity share except for maybe 2 or 3 people, and the pay is generally less than at an established company for everyone else (bimonthly) with the opportunity for rapid advancement if the company grows and/or some options. Its not that great for the people with a share either, they're generally living off of their savings except for maybe a small bump during later investment rounds. That's how you're suppose to do it in software too, but you learn to do that by gaining executive experience at a larger company and being mentored by business people smarter than you before jumping off to do your own startup. Making games as a career seems to have its own crazier, steeper trajectory.
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Jul 19, 2014 20:22
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Scorchy posted:That's how you're suppose to do it in software too, but you learn to do that by gaining executive experience at a larger company and being mentored by business people smarter than you before jumping off to do your own startup. Making games as a career seems to have its own crazier, steeper trajectory. So yes, things change when you have employees, but that wasn't the case here. Nor is it for the lion's share of software start ups. EDIT: though it could be adequately argued that their idea of having a 6 person founder team, all on equal footing, all artists, was a huge mistake. Our core team is 4 (with only one programmer), and even that is on the far edge of reasonable. Their size and composition were very off. I just wanted to point out that the "lump sum up front + rev share" is totally normal payment in software for founders/at startups. Shalinor fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 20:26
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The thing is, the game that was presented was actually pretty doable, if they'd been a company of programmers. It's genuinely not that complex a thing to make with some skills and a decent few people working full time. The one thing it could've gone fairly light on? Artists.
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Jul 19, 2014 20:37
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Yeah they managed to tackle one of the few project ideas that didn't need much art. With all the art muscle they really should have been using an existing engine to crank out something with visual scripting like that Quantum Conundrum game. Without a butt ton of cash for employees it seems crazy for a no programming team to even think they are founding a game company. There's no one to actually make the game. It's like a tiny version of Ion Storm.
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Jul 19, 2014 21:22
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The dude who took the 35k and walked away with it after two weeks is pretty loving baller. I'm an rear end in a top hat and even I would've given back at least 85%-90% of the money with zero thought. There HAS to be a story there. But yeah, Winterkewl flatout admitted that the game they felt comfortable making was a baby's first game compared to what he agreed to, all just to keep his foot in the door. What a shame. Drifter fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 21:29
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I keep thinking back to stories of a comic book artist making highly detailed, 1000px-long arrows for Daikatana.
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Jul 19, 2014 21:32
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Yogscast will make you their bitch.
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Jul 19, 2014 21:37
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Bieeardo posted:I keep thinking back to stories of a comic book artist making highly detailed, 1000px-long arrows for Daikatana.  Thanks, TCRF.
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Jul 19, 2014 21:59
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Viewtiful Jew posted:Some of the posts in that sub-reddit about the whole ordeal are gems: Oh yeah, they did that E3 thing, why did they do that again? I hope they didn't use kickstarter money for this.
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Jul 19, 2014 23:11
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Reason posted:Thats not that much to spend on a lawyer, thats like maybe a days worth of time. Drifter posted:The dude who took the 35k and walked away with it after two weeks is pretty loving baller.
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Jul 19, 2014 23:17
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The Winterkewl guy is saying there was 100k set aside to hire a programmer, and that money was taken away from them, essentially preventing them from making the hire. So how is that anything other than the Yogscast (or just Lewis, as seems to be implied) deliberately sabotaging development before it's even got going?
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Jul 19, 2014 23:19
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I like the quote where we shouldn't blame Steven Spielberg for E.T. the Game. Well, we probably would if it were called Steven Spielberg Adventures. And the main character was Steven Spielberg himself. And Steven Spielberg was shown LPing his own game as himself, personally asking people for money for Steven Spielberg Adventures.
SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jul 19, 2014 |
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Jul 19, 2014 23:48
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I'm not sure a game with little chance of being completed could be really said to be sabotaged. Not that everyone involved shouldn't share blame. Yog certainly vetted them to the public. I'm curious, did they ever have a voxel engine? I checked youtube and all their videos it looks like they are just running around Unity terrain moving boxes. If not that's crazy. Hi we're making a car and we blew the whole budget on making Corinthian leather a reality! Sorry no money for any of that moving car stuff. FuzzySlippers fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 00:01
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FuzzySlippers posted:I'm not sure a game with little chance of being completed could be really said to be sabotaged. Not that everyone involved shouldn't share blame. Yog certainly vetted them to the public. Right, but I'm making the assumption that the Yogs, at that point, believed that the game could be made. I don't understand why they would withhold a significant chunk of the budget.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:14
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Tarnop posted:Right, but I'm making the assumption that the Yogs, at that point, believed that the game could be made. I don't understand why they would withhold a significant chunk of the budget. probably because once the Kickstarter success hubris wore off they realized the game was going to be garbage so took a chunk of money for image licensing in lieu of some sort of profit share agreement.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:33
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Shalinor posted:Nah, it's also how it works in software, but only after you have real money. They only had one (theoretical) employee - the programmer. Everyone else was a founder. Wait, really? I thought they just poached a bunch of Dreamworks guys as employees. I didn't realize they were all founders. Also, are programmers really in high demand? I feel like every fifth person I meet is a programmer these days.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:34
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Suspicious Dish posted:Wait, really? I thought they just poached a bunch of Dreamworks guys as employees. I didn't realize they were all founders. Good programmers? God yes. The work the word programmer applies to is also so broad that it could apply to a web developer all the way to someone that writes Assembly code for hardware.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:45
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Yeah, I know (I am one myself!) I just feel like "Minecraft, but better!" isn't just a demanding job that it requires a six figure salary.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:48
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I would actually consider it too low. There is no way I would touch being the solo developer/designer with a bunch of idea guys for anything less than mid 100s.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:56
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Tarnop posted:The Winterkewl guy is saying there was 100k set aside to hire a programmer, and that money was taken away from them, essentially preventing them from making the hire. So how is that anything other than the Yogscast (or just Lewis, as seems to be implied) deliberately sabotaging development before it's even got going? It's probably not a terribly reasonable assumption that anyone involved in the project deliberately sabotaged it. Nobody gains from the current situation. Since there's been no official statement telling their side of the story (that I'm aware of) it's probably wise to avoid going down the "well this guy said a thing so it must be 100% accurate" route. The game was a ludicrous project that was clearly doomed to fail before it even started - and although the Yogscast probably should have known this, or at least done a bit more research, I would be surprised if anyone could accuse them of anything besides naivety. They raised $500,000 after all, so that's another $500,000 worth of people who were also convinced that it was possible. From the statement by the developer, it sounds like he wanted to start pre-orders in order to raise funds to complete the game. The Yogscast refused to do this unless the game was in a state where they could endorse it and that never happened. In my opinion, it takes real guts to decide to pull the plug at that point rather than going for the easy and far more sleazy route of starting pre-orders to fund the cobbling together of a crappy game then releasing it. Big name publishers do that all the time, throw good money after bad then release a piece of crap as if nobody will notice. In this situation it sounds like they've decided to take the hit to their reputation immediately to avoid burning any more of their fan's money - plus they're giving all the backers a free copy of another game that's reasonably similar to the one they were going to make. I certainly doubt you're going to get a deal this good out of all the other kickstarters we're going to see failing over the next few years.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:58
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Suspicious Dish posted:Yeah, I know (I am one myself!) That's not the point. The point is that competent programmers can always make more somewhere else and competent programmers are mostly already employed somewhere else.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:59
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Chalks posted:From the statement by the developer, it sounds like he wanted to start pre-orders in order to raise funds to complete the game. The Yogscast refused to do this unless the game was in a state where they could endorse it and that never happened. In my opinion, it takes real guts to decide to pull the plug at that point rather than going for the easy and far more sleazy route of starting pre-orders to fund the cobbling together of a crappy game then releasing it.
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Jul 20, 2014 01:33
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The saddest thing about these giant kickstarter failures are all the good kickstarters that were far more deserving of all that money but didn't get anywhere near as much.
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Jul 20, 2014 01:48
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Lets! Get! Weird! posted:The saddest thing about these giant kickstarter failures are all the good kickstarters that were far more deserving of all that money but didn't get anywhere near as much. There's probably a quote that combines "a fool and his money are soon parted" and "good taste has deprived me of a great many things," but I've never heard it.
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Jul 20, 2014 02:19
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Bieeardo posted:I keep thinking back to stories of a comic book artist making highly detailed, 1000px-long arrows for Daikatana. Knee Deep in a Dream is one of the best video game articles I've ever read and I wish it was still up in its entirety with pictures. And I solemnly swear that if Ghost Crab Games ever does a Kickstarter I won't disappear and steal everyone's money with nothing to show for it. 
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Jul 20, 2014 02:25
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Yodzilla posted:Knee Deep in a Dream is one of the best video game articles I've ever read and I wish it was still up in its entirety with pictures. Wayback Machine doesn't have everything?
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Jul 20, 2014 02:31
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The White Dragon posted:Wayback Machine doesn't have everything? Oh poo poo nice I thought this didn't work for some reason. Gamespot really needs to get the original working though. Thanks.
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Jul 20, 2014 02:33
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I like the quote where we shouldn't blame Steven Spielberg for E.T. the Game. Well, we probably would if it were called Steven Spielberg Adventures. And the main character was Steven Spielberg himself. And Steven Spielberg was shown LPing his own game as himself, personally asking people for money for Steven Spielberg Adventures. I still enjoy watching some of the Yogscast stuff (mostly Sips these days, but even his schtick is getting old) but this sounds insufferable and I'm super glad this game will never be made. To be honest I've been watching their stuff for a while now but didn't even know this game was being kickstarted until finding out it was canned. I don't even want to venture into the Yogs forums but I'm sure there's quite a bit of fanboy vitriol aimed at them for this lovely game being abandoned. I'm interested in reading more about how everything fell apart once more details come to light.
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Jul 20, 2014 02:58
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explosivo posted:I still enjoy watching some of the Yogscast stuff (mostly Sips these days, but even his schtick is getting old) but this sounds insufferable and I'm super glad this game will never be made. To be honest I've been watching their stuff for a while now but didn't even know this game was being kickstarted until finding out it was canned. I don't even want to venture into the Yogs forums but I'm sure there's quite a bit of fanboy vitriol aimed at them for this lovely game being abandoned. I'm interested in reading more about how everything fell apart once more details come to light. there's pretty much nothing but cultish praise for them and how well they've handled this situation
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Jul 20, 2014 03:13
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shas posted:there's pretty much nothing but cultish praise for them and how well they've handled this situation Uh.. oh. I can't say I expected anything other than frothing-at-the-mouth rage.
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Jul 20, 2014 03:15
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explosivo posted:Uh.. oh. I can't say I expected anything other than frothing-at-the-mouth rage. Yogscast have hit that critical mass of fans where any reasonable ones are drowned out by the worshippers. They could probably do a 30 minute video just cursing out their fans and it would still get high ratings and lots of "oh those Yogs guys, so British with their irony and sarcasm."
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Jul 20, 2014 03:23
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Suspicious Dish posted:Also, are programmers really in high demand? I feel like every fifth person I meet is a programmer these days.  Yes. Domain-wise, coding is almost as broad as accounting these days in terms of uses. So yeah there are a ton of programmers around, but there is plenty of demand to match that supply. Cicero fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 03:42
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When they're not getting outsourced.
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Jul 20, 2014 03:44
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Drifter posted:When they're not getting outsourced. You can probably find good value coders in places like Eastern Europe in terms of quality:price ratio, but an entire contracting firm with nothing but those kinds of programmers? That's a much bigger ask. Cicero fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 03:49
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Just look at all of American McGee's games.
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Jul 20, 2014 03:50
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