murphyslaw posted:

Lucky. Comment fields over here are usually rabidly pro-Zionist, calling for the heads of editors for daring to publish something mean about Israel, and screaming bloody murder about pro-terrorist bias and political correctness gone mad whenever an article comes out suggesting that Israel may be acting a little excessively, even when it takes pains to provide a 'balanced' view.

I can't really put my finger on why, except perhaps for a deeply rooted fear of Arabs.

radical meme posted:

The only public opinion that matters to Israel is U.S. public opinion and they have that locked down for at least the next decade. In fact, it's not even U.S. public opinion that matters, it's the opinion of U.S. politicians. The Obama administration has shown a total lack of will to force the issue. In 2016, it doesn't matter if Hillary or the Republican is elected because both will show deference to Israel. So Israel has the U.S. political class locked in for the next decade.

Tezzor posted:

They're paranoid, bloodthirsty, psychotically racist colonialists with a victim complex who go through universal military indoctrination. What do you expect, a drum circle?

Entropia posted:

another thing i'd like to know, is there any reaction from the class of highly-educated university types? one would imagine that when a state goes pseudo-fascist like Israel seems to be, the cosmopolitan learned classes flee.

radical meme posted:

The only public opinion that matters to Israel is U.S. public opinion and they have that locked down for at least the next decade. In fact, it's not even U.S. public opinion that matters, it's the opinion of U.S. politicians. The Obama administration has shown a total lack of will to force the issue. In 2016, it doesn't matter if Hillary or the Republican is elected because both will show deference to Israel. So Israel has the U.S. political class locked in for the next decade.

CSM posted:

Tezzor posted:

Youtube video of a massive airstrike 20 minutes prior to the ceasefire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NANqcKIrbV0

Tezzor posted:

Youtube video of a massive airstrike 20 minutes prior to the ceasefire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NANqcKIrbV0

Tezzor posted:

Youtube video of a massive airstrike 20 minutes prior to the ceasefire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NANqcKIrbV0

SedanChair posted:

That Hamas, they must be everywhere.

Tezzor posted:

Youtube video of a massive airstrike 20 minutes prior to the ceasefire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NANqcKIrbV0

SedanChair posted:

So in funhouse ceasefire world, does "continuing to destroy tunnels" mean "continuing to bomb"? Will they just say that there was a tunnel instead of that Hamas launched a rocket nearby?

GaussianCopula posted:

A ceasefire implies that you fire before it. I dont get why continuing to fight before the ceasefire goes into effect is noteworthy.

A Fancy 400 lbs posted:

New excuse: The core of the earth counts as a tunnel.

SedanChair posted:

*group of football hooligans kicking an unconscious man*

"I'm about to cease hostilities. Guys, get ready to stop kicking him, I'm about to cease hostilities. Keep kicking for now though I have to really cap this off." *goes off to find giant rock to drop on unconscious man's spine*

Ghost of Reagan Past posted:

From Al Jazeera: Israeli police have banned an anti-war rally scheduled for 8pm tonight in Tel Aviv, citing "security concerns" about large crowds gathering outside.

quote:

The pictures of the horror and the stories of the brutality in Gaza are unbearable. No decent person could remain unmoved by so much suffering and pain — in many cases of innocent people, including children. But decent people dull their emotions; they often say: So what do you propose?

Not that this is an illegitimate question; people have a right not to be attacked. They have a right to demand that their country act to protect them from attacks; the state is responsible for protecting its citizens. Because of Hamas’ manipulations — for example, the use of human shields — and for reasons like the crowding in much of Gaza, Israel has no other way to meet this responsibility and cause fewer civilian casualties. In other words, if you have an idea about a different way, offer it. If you don’t, shut up.

One way to view this assertion's problems is to consider the notion that nations have a right to self-determination. People have a right not to live under occupation, repression and a blockade, as well as personal and national degradation. People have a right to have hope and a reasonable standard of living. Leaders are responsible for making sure that their people are not denied these rights.

Because of Israel’s manipulations — the settlement policy, the unwillingness for true negotiations — and because of the economic, technological and military disparities, the Palestinian leaders have no way to guarantee these rights save terror, including the use of human shields. In other words, if you have an idea about a different way, offer it. If you don’t, shut up.

Most of us aren’t convinced by this assertion, and justifiably so. But why not? And how is it different from the similar contention about the brutal attacks on Gaza?

The problem in trying to justify terror is that when a certain goal appears just and a certain method appears best for achieving it, this method shouldn't necessarily be used. There’s a general principle: Some means — even though they’re best for achieving a goal — might be so evil that the goal should be dropped, as long as we’re not forced to pursue it. If the only way to promote freedom from repression is terror, this could be enough to justify dropping this legitimate goal.

Similarly, if the only way to protect ourselves from the rocket threat and maybe even the tunnel threat is to cause death, injury, suffering and destruction in Gaza, maybe we should drop the legitimate goal of preventing these dangers.

But maybe there’s no need to rush and forgo these goals. For example, the Palestinian side could hold a nonviolent campaign for national independence. And the Israeli side could conduct true negotiations to solve the problems of Gaza, not just defeat Gaza. The minute you look beyond the present moment, you discover possibilities.

One key task for leaders is to prevent tragic scenarios in which legitimate goals can only be promoted through horrible means. The Palestinian leaders sometimes appear to fail in fulfilling this obligation. The Israeli leaders have certainly failed at it. Their policies in recent years have brought about the current situation — the settlements, the blockade of Gaza, the delegitimization of the Palestinian Authority and its leaders, and especially the deliberate effort in recent weeks to shatter the Palestinian reconciliation.

I am not naive. Peoples and countries tend not to concede their strategic goals just because of the unforgivable moral cost of achieving them, especially when the price is lives on the other side, and when such efforts are made to deny their humanity and ignore their suffering. Israel will continue to cause indescribable suffering, which there is no way to view as proportional to its legitimate goals. And Hamas will continue to attack civilians and employ terror, like every other nation in a similar situation struggle. Not enough blood has been spilled, it seems.

But at least we should shirk the feeling of moral superiority, as if there were no resemblance between us and them, as if there were nothing to compare. Anyone who understands the horrors of Gaza and asks “so what do you propose?”— as if that were enough to bury the implications of these horrors — uses the same argument that the terrorists use.

Volkerball posted:

The Israeli police have been pretty lenient with the protests so far. The safety of the protesters can't be guaranteed at all, and cops have been sticking themselves in between counter protesters throwing rocks and left wing protesters on a daily basis for a while. They had to hide all the protesters in a dark alley once and commandeer a public bus to get them all out safely. At least once it turned into a huge brawl in a cafe. However, people are saying the Tel Aviv protest will go on anyway, and some are coming from Jerusalem to join it.

GaussianCopula posted:

That is pretty much the attitude of the IDF going back to the 6day war or Yom Kippur war. You always try to achieve as much as possible before you are stopped.

Shaocaholica posted:

Reading the comments people are noticing a cut in the footage from ground shadows and stuff drifting in the wind suggesting that it's not accurate to real time.

Accretionist posted:

I don't think anything better than that's plausible and think we're a shoe-in for migrants from the Palestinian diaspora festooning the Middle East.

Accretionist posted:

What do you guys think the best plausible outcome is?

Short of something crazy turning international support into political suicide and enabling a two-(viable) state solution, maybe Palestine can aggregate and use its status as 'Weak But Dangerous' as a basis for negotiating the best one-state apartheid they can get.

I don't think anything better than that's plausible and think we're a shoe-in for migrants from the Palestinian diaspora festooning the Middle East.

7c Nickel posted:

Israeli politics continues to degrade to the point that they elect a PM who publicly calls President Clinton a whore to Muslim dogs for suggesting the mildest possibly reform.

This is honestly what I think is going to move things forward. Not slow sympathy for the Palestinian cause, but rapid crazification in Israel.

etalian posted:

Weak states can't negotiate with a strong one in good faith and any sort of terror response like the Qassam rockets have been neutralized by Israel's huge tech advantage.

The only way out is for Israel to become a pariah state similar to apartheid area South Africa and get punished with things like economic sanctions/large scale disinvestment campaigns.

Agrajag posted:

I'll eat my own cum if this ever happens. You can toxx me on that.

etalian posted:

It's going to get worse rather than better since the 18-35 israeli demographic is also increasingly right wing in voting habits too.

DarkCrawler posted:

Be prepared. Nothing lasts forever. Israel is one United States away from becoming the 21st century's South Africa...which is remarkably close to actual South Africa.