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I almost feel like the worst part of it is the pitch sequence. They threw inside, he avoided it. They then threw a slider low and away, which I took to mean "ok, you got the message, let's play baseball now," and I think Cutch did, too. Then the middle-finger-point got him drilled in the spine, and here we are. Dirty poo poo.
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Aug 5, 2014 20:55
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This was the Diamondbacks dugout's response when one of their pitchers got ejected for throwing at Ryan Braun: The next batter was Jonathan Lucroy, who hit a grand slam, his second dinger of the game. The Diamondbacks lost. So not only is their poo poo injuring opposing players, it's costing the Diamondbacks wins. It's beyond stupid.
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Aug 5, 2014 20:55
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Matt Thornton is a Natinal
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Aug 5, 2014 20:56
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I think it's fairly obvious the Dbacks could not give a poo poo about wins.
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Aug 5, 2014 20:58
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Obligatory reminder that the Diamondbacks made moves in the offseason with the intention of winning their division.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:05
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Rand alPaul posted:This was the Diamondbacks dugout's response when one of their pitchers got ejected for throwing at Ryan Braun: Not that I give a poo poo about the D-Backs, but I wouldn't be surprised if all dugouts did this after an ejection - I'm too lazy to find out for sure though
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Aug 5, 2014 21:06
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ColdBlooded posted:Not that I give a poo poo about the D-Backs, but I wouldn't be surprised if all dugouts did this after an ejection - I'm too lazy to find out for sure though I could see maybe for an ejection for arguing with the umpire or something, but for intentionally hitting a guy with a baseball, I doubt it.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:13
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Thom P. Tiers posted:I could see maybe for an ejection for arguing with the umpire or something, but for intentionally hitting a guy with a baseball, I doubt it. I don't think most players object to beanball as such. I think most of them still buy into the unwritten rules stuff, if not to the psychotic extent that the Dbacks do.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:17
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Thom P. Tiers posted:I could see maybe for an ejection for arguing with the umpire or something, but for intentionally hitting a guy with a baseball, I doubt it. I'd be kind of surprised if it wasn't generally like that. If we're thinking about 'approved' beanings by the manager or whatever the guy is just doing his job. Sure his job is dumb and stupid, but retaliation for whatever perceived wrong caused the situation is probably looked on pretty favorably in the clubhouse.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:18
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i don't get singling out the DBacks. Every team does the same thing basically.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:19
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Have to start taking a stand somewhere.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:21
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I can't believe the psychotic Dbacks use the HBP against innocent teams like the Pirates!!! http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ers=0&sort=20,d
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Aug 5, 2014 21:22
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Schweinhund posted:I can't believe the psychotic Dbacks use the HBP against innocent teams like the Pirates!!! Every hit by pitch has retaliation written on it.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:24
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The issue isn't with hitting people because that happens, but hitting people with malicious intent. Are you saying all of the Pirates HBP were made maliciously?
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Aug 5, 2014 21:24
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Harlock posted:The issue isn't with hitting people because that happens, but hitting people with malicious intent. Are you saying all of the Pirates HBP were made maliciously? I'd rather be hit 32 times on purpose than 61 times accidentally.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:26
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It would have been interesting to see if there was this outrage if kershaw hurt holliday when he drilled him after the break on purpose, im guessing no.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:26
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Schweinhund posted:I'd rather be hit 32 times on purpose than 61 times accidentally. Accidental HBP are frequently on failed breaking pitches, rather than 90+ MPH fastballs aimed at a person, so your mileage may vary.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:28
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Schweinhund posted:I'd rather be hit 32 times on purpose than 61 times accidentally. They don't do it in a row, all to the same person.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:28
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ALFbrot posted:Accidental HBP are frequently on failed breaking pitches, rather than 90+ MPH fastballs aimed at a person, so your mileage may vary. My favorite is when some guy will stare down the pitcher while walking slowly to first base after getting hit with 70 mph curve or something.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:30
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Schweinhund posted:I'd rather be hit 32 times on purpose than 61 times accidentally. Really? I'm guessing most accidental hit-by-pitches are grazing the jersey, offspeed pitches that get away, and getting hit in the legs. Intentional hit-by-pitches are 95mph gas like what Delgado broke McCutchen's ribs with, or poo poo thrown at the head. No way you'd want that over a curveball that slips.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:31
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I'm still waiting to see a substantiated report that McCutch broke a rib.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:31
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Schweinhund posted:I'd rather be hit 32 times on purpose than 61 times accidentally. Again, you are failing to see the issue we have here. HBP's happen; control issues, bad curveballs, slipping a bit on a pitch inside. But the ones that come from retaliation are entirely purposeful and don't need to happen. Why risk the extra possible injury because you want to get a guy back? It's so dumb.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:32
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Boon posted:I'm still waiting to see a substantiated report that McCutch broke a rib. http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2014/08/05/McCutchen-has-rib-cartilege-injury-Pirates-say/stories/201408050186 edit: I guess that's not technically a fractured rib, but I once suffered a costochondral separation, and I can tell you that it probably hurts just as bad. I separated mine by sneezing, but had taken a very heavy knee to the exact spot of it playing football earlier in the day. ALFbrot fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 21:32
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Thom P. Tiers posted:Again, you are failing to see the issue we have here. HBP's happen; control issues, bad curveballs, slipping a bit on a pitch inside. But the ones that come from retaliation are entirely purposeful and don't need to happen. Why risk the extra possible injury because you want to get a guy back? It's so dumb. Not to mention there's almost a guarantee there will be retaliation. Or the other team might beat the hell out of your team and then go play in your pool.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:34
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Grittybeard posted:My favorite is when some guy will stare down the pitcher while walking slowly to first base after getting hit with 70 mph curve or something. Didn't Barry Zito throw at Prince Fielder after that walkoff celebration he did? I bet that 84 mph heat really showed him
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Aug 5, 2014 21:35
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We can all talk about how this does or doesn't belong in the sport, but seeing as how nobody involved in the sport seems to be in a hurry to get rid of it, let's take it as a given that beanballs will continue to be a part of baseball, because that's how it'll be until someone in the league actually does something. Given that, I believe that not all beanballs are created equal. First, there are the obvious message balls: these are fast-, but not super-fast-, balls that generally hit a batsman on the side. Often, the batter is expecting, or at least isn't too surprised, by this kind of pitch. The intent isn't to hurt, it's to send a message. The message is received, and the batter takes first. The batter won't be happy about it, and the pitcher may get tossed, but it is what it is--again, because the league won't do anything about it--and most ballplayers seem to accept this as part of the game. But then, you have the dangerous message balls. These like to find the batter's head (the true, bona-fide beanball), which at any speed is not acceptable. Or, they don't find the head, but they're thrown excessively fast and due to this unnecessary speed (as we're not trying to throw a strike here), they injure the batter. The difference between this beanball and the other one is that only the pitcher and maybe his manager think this is acceptable--nobody else ever seems to agree. Something tells me that if you polled pro ballplayers, you'd find that they don't like but can live with the first kind of HBP, but that the second kind has to go. The problem is that you can't really get rid of one and not the other. Tony La Russa was never afraid to call for a beanball, but he would criticize his own pitchers if they almost hit an opposing batter's head. (I know because I actually saw him do that after a Cardinals game a few years back.) I honestly don't know how, or if, he's going to deal with this situation in Arizona, but if Cutch's injury is due to the HBP, then he may well do something. Say what you want about him, he's not a fan of seeing players get hurt.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:37
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tarlibone posted:We can all talk about how this does or doesn't belong in the sport, but seeing as how nobody involved in the sport seems to be in a hurry to get rid of it, let's take it as a given that beanballs will continue to be a part of baseball, because that's how it'll be until someone in the league actually does something. Given that, I believe that not all beanballs are created equal. They made (a somewhat lovely) attempt to remove collisions at home plate this year because players have been getting injured recently due to them. Home plate collisions also used to be "part of the game" and nobody seemed to care. I don't understand why they wouldn't attempt to somehow fix the issue of retaliation beanballs that can possibly injure players as well. Stiffer suspensions, fines, etc etc.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:42
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Thom P. Tiers posted:They made (a somewhat lovely) attempt to remove collisions at home plate this year because players have been getting injured recently due to them. Home plate collisions also used to be "part of the game" and nobody seemed to care. I don't understand why they wouldn't attempt to somehow fix the issue of retaliation beanballs that can possibly injure players as well. Stiffer suspensions, fines, etc etc. Proving it was done on purpose requires more evidence than "you can tell." Any player would appeal a suspension and try to force management to prove it was intentional, which they won't be able to do.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:46
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Could lead to more great quotes from Miguel Montero about his own pitcher having terrible control.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:49
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Thom P. Tiers posted:They made (a somewhat lovely) attempt to remove collisions at home plate this year because players have been getting injured recently due to them. Home plate collisions also used to be "part of the game" and nobody seemed to care. I don't understand why they wouldn't attempt to somehow fix the issue of retaliation beanballs that can possibly injure players as well. Stiffer suspensions, fines, etc etc. Oh, I agree with you, and largely because of this point: they did attempt to reduce those collisions by changing the rules, so you'd think that they might take a look at HBPs, too. But until they do something, it's just "part of the game." I'm not saying it's a good justification. It's just the one they seem to be using. And so I guess Cutch's injury probably isn't related to the HPB? Well, if that's the case, then it doesn't really help McCutchen one way or the other, but the D-Backs have probably dodged a bullet. I expect the furor will die down if the injury isn't a result of a beanball, and Arizona will have to wait until they play the Dodgers again to try and force MLB to change the HBP rules.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:49
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Thom P. Tiers posted:I could see maybe for an ejection for arguing with the umpire or something, but for intentionally hitting a guy with a baseball, I doubt it. Beaning guys for retribution isn't something unique to the D-Backs. I think we can all agree that it's dumb but I think lots of players view it as part of the game.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:50
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tarlibone posted:Oh, I agree with you, and largely because of this point: they did attempt to reduce those collisions by changing the rules, so you'd think that they might take a look at HBPs, too. But until they do something, it's just "part of the game." I'm not saying it's a good justification. It's just the one they seem to be using. I think it's a lot more likely that it's directly related than when it was presumed to be an oblique strain.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:57
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I'll PayPal one of you 5 bux to take an 80 mph pitching machine pitch to the body
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Aug 5, 2014 21:58
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Scob posted:It would have been interesting to see if there was this outrage if kershaw hurt holliday when he drilled him after the break on purpose, im guessing no. hahahaha. There's a tremendous difference. This was one time one pitcher lost control and the D-Backs responded by going up and in on the team's best player. This was not three pitchers with huge fastballs hitting the same batter three times. And the "retaliation" in the Kershaw one was a 90 mph fastball to the butt. Players make a huge distinction of HBPs because high and inside is extremely dangerous. There's a huge potential for broken hands, broken ribs, and that's if you're lucky. You're threatening the guy's livelihood and physical health. This is why pitchers with great fastballs and no command should probably learn command better than missing two feet up and in. Hanley has been hit by a pitch three separate times in like 10 games in the past 12 months against the Cardinals. All three were high and inside and two were faster than 98 miles per hour. In "retaliation" after the first three, Clayton Kershaw, one of the best control pitchers in baseball, threw a 90-mph fastball at Matt Holliday's butt. Holliday missed no time. If anything, it showed retaliation is impotent. Would it have been better if the Dodgers put up Jose Dominguez, a pitcher with a 98-mph fastball and no control, and asked him to hit the high and inside corner of the zone? You can rationalize that any way you want to as a Cardinals fan (I know you will because you're all mob wives), but hitting a team's best players with fastballs, intentional or not, is absolutely a market inefficiency and will be until the league steps in.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:59
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Thom P. Tiers posted:They made (a somewhat lovely) attempt to remove collisions at home plate this year because players have been getting injured recently due to them. Home plate collisions also used to be "part of the game" and nobody seemed to care. I don't understand why they wouldn't attempt to somehow fix the issue of retaliation beanballs that can possibly injure players as well. Stiffer suspensions, fines, etc etc. Wait what has been somewhat lovely about it? It seems that collisions are way down, I watch every Mariners game and can't think of one that has happened all year, off the top of my head.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:00
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The Diamondbacks are the only organization lately to engage in top-to-bottom public dickwaving about how much they loving love beanballs so y'all trying to make excuses for why they're being singled out are being kinda disingenuous.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:00
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Deteriorata posted:Proving it was done on purpose requires more evidence than "you can tell." Any player would appeal a suspension and try to force management to prove it was intentional, which they won't be able to do. But when there are suspensions for things like this, the worst-case scenario is that a starter gets moved back a few days, which is completely useless as a deterrent.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:00
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ColdBlooded posted:Beaning guys for retribution isn't something unique to the D-Backs. I think we can all agree that it's dumb but I think lots of players view it as part of the game. If we all agree that it's dumb--including many players (some of whom were run out of town by the DBacks org for expressing such an opinion)--why can't something be done about it? Who cares if Arizona's not the only club that does it? You have to start somewhere, and this is a cut-and-dry case of a lovely organization calling for a revenge HBP that injured the league MVP in the midst of a pennant race. Montero flipped the bird to the pitcher. That was the signal to hit him. There is nothing mysterious about this, and MLB is missing a great opportunity to try and remove what really boils down to assault. Pitcher suspensions insufficiently long? Then lengthen them. gently caress pitchers that do this; let 'em miss 3 starts and 2 weeks worth of pay. If the Player's Union doesn't agree to "we're trying to lengthen your careers by keeping you from being injured" then they're fools.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:01
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Nick Rivers posted:Wait what has been somewhat lovely about it? It seems that collisions are way down, I watch every Mariners game and can't think of one that has happened all year, off the top of my head. The vagueness of the rule has resulted in some truly insane outcomes after lengthy reviews on totally clean plays.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:02
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Nick Rivers posted:Wait what has been somewhat lovely about it? It seems that collisions are way down, I watch every Mariners game and can't think of one that has happened all year, off the top of my head. The implementation of it has not been great. Resulting in a ton of arguing with umpires and bad/dumb calls. I guess it has done it's job though, as collisions at home do seem to be down.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:02
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