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Viscardus posted:Now you are just putting words in my mouth. Not having fun yes, but "shut up?" Brutus Salad gets it. Leperflesh, I only hung around to say what I honestly thought, up to Wiz if he wants to take any of my criticisms seriously. Better luck next time. What? Dude you said "Should I not express my honest opinion" and I said "no I did not tell you to shut up." Can we all agree that all of us are just expressing honest opinions? Thank you for expressing your honest opinion. I have attempted to explain why I think you didn't like this thread but obviously we are just talking past each other. I'm sorry for attempting to engage with you. Please go in peace and goodwill for all men and have a nice day, and by the way I like your LPs.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:29
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Leperflesh posted:What? I'm glad we could resolve this peacefully. By the way, to answer your earlier question, I am in fact very familiar with Crete. 
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Aug 7, 2014 21:31
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Viscardus posted:I'm glad we could resolve this peacefully. I'm surprised there's anyone from Crete who wouldn't recognize the RebelQuit when they saw it.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:32
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Viscardus posted:I made three posts about how I think this LP is a failure, I think I need professional help now.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:32
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Viscardus posted:I'm glad we could resolve this peacefully.  Welp you got me My old man brain does not remember things well enough. sniper4625 posted:You know, something about his post reminds me of Crete. I can't put my finger on it... Goddamnit I'm dense. in my defense, 857 pages of Crete is a lot to remember Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 21:35
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Seriously, people. Booze and fried peltian wings. It's how this one gets through the day without eating the lot of you in a fit of pique.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:37
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Pvt.Scott posted:I really liked how Nweismuller handled things in his Master of Orion 2 thread. Each vote was for one of three comprehensive plans along three separate party lines that Nweis proposed and everyone else just had a good time writing fiction, drawing pictures and pretending to be senators. I agree. I was hoping my last bill would see enough support because it would have solved a few problems to the detriment of little else. Minor relations penalties and little to no deficit are nothing compared to the benefits of a spy network, tech parity, and inter-species relation building. Especially considering the last update had us in a bad financial situation. I was also worried that calling for a bunch of informants without a way to pay for them would get responses to the sound of "Oh we can't possibly afford those informants on such a tight budget" This is why I ask other parties to weigh in on my legislation during the legislative phase, and I find it annoying that I get no response until voting time comes. If 2/3rds of the senate opposed the bill due to individual provisos, then why did nobody speak up?
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Aug 7, 2014 21:38
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Honestly, I think Viscardus has a point. (Or I thought I did but now I'm not sure that was the point he's trying to make.) I think this game has a lot more fiddly bits and reactivity Rome did, so it's a lot harder to accomplish anything in this legislative format, especially with certain parties shooting down anything that is too vague. So rather than being able to provide general guidelines for how Wiz should play and maybe a few specific actions, we have to be super specific about every action we want to take, and then Wiz can ignore opportunities that arise that would carry out the spirit of a bill in a much more efficient manner, but since nobody predicted that specific set of circumstance arising he just lets it pass and we don't even hear about in until it's too late. It's kinda like if in Crete we had to pass legislation that said "Move the army to attack the hostile army in Athens" rather than "Fight the war until we have enough warscore to annex Thrace".
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Aug 7, 2014 21:38
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Anybody from Crete who did not immediately recognize the Rebel Blob reference should be ashamed of themselves. 
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Aug 7, 2014 21:40
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GoatLord posted:Honestly, I think Viscardus has a point. (Or I thought I did but now I'm not sure that was the point he's trying to make.) I think this game has a lot more fiddly bits and reactivity Rome did, so it's a lot harder to accomplish anything in this legislative format, especially with certain parties shooting down anything that is too vague. So rather than being able to provide general guidelines for how Wiz should play and maybe a few specific actions, we have to be super specific about every action we want to take, and then Wiz can ignore opportunities that arise that would carry out the spirit of a bill in a much more efficient manner, but since nobody predicted that specific set of circumstance arising he just lets it pass and we don't even hear about in until it's too late. I have to agree with this sentiment. We have to have a maintenance party just to make sure the Hydral does basic things like research. Nobody likes having to worry about the exact letter of the law, and I don't think anybody wants to control every single action of the Hydral. I feel like not much would be lost if Wiz practiced some agency during gameplay.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:44
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unwantedplatypus posted:I have to agree with this sentiment. We have to have a maintenance party just to make sure the Hydral does basic things like research. Nobody likes having to worry about the exact letter of the law, and I don't think anybody wants to control every single action of the Hydral. I feel like not much would be lost if Wiz practiced some agency during gameplay. Based on the voting of the Boarine Preservation Act in this last session, it seems like a lot of people aren't comfortable giving the Hydral a lot of agency and would rather keep his actions limited and specific. I'm personally fine with increasing the amount of freedom, both IC and OOC, but I think the shadow of Crete has left some people terrified of letting Wiz do things his way.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:58
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Syless posted:Based on the voting of the Boarine Preservation Act in this last session, it seems like a lot of people aren't comfortable giving the Hydral a lot of agency and would rather keep his actions limited and specific. I'm personally fine with increasing the amount of freedom, both IC and OOC, but I think the shadow of Crete has left some people terrified of letting Wiz do things his way. There are people on both sides of the equation: The Boarine Preservation act passed, after all. Given the need for a real time response despite sessions only happening months or years apart, a degree of flexibility is absolutely necessary. The budget is a snapshot of a constantly changing sum, open-ended dispatches that gain or lose funds can be started or adjourned at any point. We need to adapt the legislative style to the nature of the game, which means being more open-ended and flexible, and more fluid with our resources.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:21
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This is exactly what would happen with this particular setup in real life though, so I guess it's working. "Of course stopping that meteor swarm before it hits all of the planets in the system is important, but if you think I'm going to let you bleed the budget dry for my statue garden filled with giant, golden depictions of heroes from Peltia's past, you are sorely mistaken, sirrah!"
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Aug 7, 2014 22:40
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Pvt.Scott posted:This is exactly what would happen with this particular setup in real life though, so I guess it's working. Peltians live on Lycian.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:44
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unwantedplatypus posted:I have to agree with this sentiment. We have to have a maintenance party just to make sure the Hydral does basic things like research. Nobody likes having to worry about the exact letter of the law, and I don't think anybody wants to control every single action of the Hydral. I feel like not much would be lost if Wiz practiced some agency during gameplay. Research is actually something I do anyway, as long as time's left over from other stuff you guys have ordered up. The fact that you're being highly specific is your choice... I don't intend to twist the Council's decisions and will try to follow the spirit of what you legislate. Hell, I've even taken to the practice of calling emergency sessions when important enough things happen that you don't legislate for, so I find the idea that I'm forcing you guys to be super specific about everything a tad unfair. If there's anything more you would like to add to the list of 'stuff I do without needing to be prompted' feel free to suggest it.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:45
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Wiz posted:Research is actually something I do anyway, as long as time's left over from other stuff you guys have ordered up. The fact that you're being highly specific is your choice... I don't intend to twist the Council's decisions and will try to follow the spirit of what you legislate. Hell, I've even taken to the practice of calling emergency sessions when important enough things happen that you don't legislate for, so I find the idea that I'm forcing you guys to be super specific about everything a tad unfair. I don't think they're blaming you for them needing to be super specific; I think they're blaming each other because parties keep shooting down legislation that is not super specific.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:54
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Wiz posted:Research is actually something I do anyway, as long as time's left over from other stuff you guys have ordered up. The fact that you're being highly specific is your choice... I don't intend to twist the Council's decisions and will try to follow the spirit of what you legislate. Hell, I've even taken to the practice of calling emergency sessions when important enough things happen that you don't legislate for, so I find the idea that I'm forcing you guys to be super specific about everything a tad unfair. You know that bit where there was a big push to end the Thoraxian-Burlust war and it could have been done by paying off the queen, but wasn't because it 'wasn't part of the plan'? That might have something to do with the whole 'spirit of things' thing from some quarters.
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Aug 7, 2014 22:58
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AJ_Impy posted:You know that bit where there was a big push to end the Thoraxian-Burlust war and it could have been done by paying off the queen, but wasn't because it 'wasn't part of the plan'? That might have something to do with the whole 'spirit of things' thing from some quarters. Because that was an idea the Council considered and specifically rejected. I'm sure that if the legislation passed had said "end the Thoraxian-Burlust war by the most expedient way possible" that's what would have happened. Seriously, the problem with legislation in this LP has been that it's always been too specific because Crete veterans are playing like it's Crete and there's an Archon with his own agenda out there to twist the intent. Harry's far too lazy to come up with his own agenda.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:04
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Ilanin posted:Because that was an idea the Council considered and specifically rejected. I'm sure that if the legislation passed had said "end the Thoraxian-Burlust war by the most expedient way possible" that's what would have happened. Yeah really, 'not doing something that was explicitly voted down' is hardly what I'd call not following the spirit of the proposals.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:11
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 I'm still around! 
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Aug 7, 2014 23:15
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It occurs to me that one of the things the Hydral fan-club parties could do, if they wanted Wiz to be more proactive, would be to pass a bill with an item in saying something like "With the consent of his AI, the Hydral may make an action costing no more than 3000 credits to seize a single opportunity to advance a goal of his choice." (The first clause is necessary to prevent Harry using the bill as an excuse to spend half our budget on Boarines Gone Wild IV.)
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Aug 7, 2014 23:20
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Then perhaps its a problem with us legislators not giving wiz enough wiggle-room. I just feel like "oops, spent all our money on moon bases" and "Well nobody is doing anything about all these pirates" is something that should be avoided.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:20
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For what it's worth, I think this sort of struggle with specificity and trying to play all your moves three years in advance is most of the fun of a legislative LP. Maybe it'd also be fun to see this game played properly - if somebody wants to do a companion LP without a council screwing things up, I'd certainly read it - but ultimately for me the question isn't "how can we best direct Wiz to win the game?" but "can we plan ahead sufficiently well to win the game despite playing it in a way no sensible person would ever attempt?"
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Aug 7, 2014 23:24
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You know, I recognized the Rebel Blob quit but not the follow-up posts. They actually fit surprisingly well, don't they?GoatLord posted:Honestly, I think Viscardus has a point. (Or I thought I did but now I'm not sure that was the point he's trying to make.) I think this game has a lot more fiddly bits and reactivity Rome did, so it's a lot harder to accomplish anything in this legislative format, especially with certain parties shooting down anything that is too vague. So rather than being able to provide general guidelines for how Wiz should play and maybe a few specific actions, we have to be super specific about every action we want to take, and then Wiz can ignore opportunities that arise that would carry out the spirit of a bill in a much more efficient manner, but since nobody predicted that specific set of circumstance arising he just lets it pass and we don't even hear about in until it's too late. For the record, I objected to vagueness mostly because it interacted badly with the budget - how do you control your spending when you don't even know WHAT you're going to spend? If the Boarine Preservation Bill had some kind of budget limit I would have been much more comfortable with it, even if it was something like "No more than 5,000 total shall be spent on this bill." And heck, for all that I groused about it I ended up voting in favor of it anyways because it addressed certain issues no other bills did. I don't really object to vagueness of action as such, but given that we were suffering a nasty budget deficit because we'd mandated vague and nigh-unlimited spending, I was a lot more antsy about making sure we knew exactly what we were going to spend. As an aside, I hear a lot of people complaining about how nobody ever brings up issues with their bills during the proposal phases, and here's my guess as to why that happens - because it's a buttload of work looking over each and every proposal and seeing how they interact with every other proposal. Individually a proposal might seem fine, but when put up against every other proposal unforeseen problems begin to arise, like massive overbudgeting or contradictory directions or excessive redundancy. And that's assuming you read up on each proposal in the first place - I'm guessing the Lazy Assholes aren't the only ones guilty of skimming over bills until it comes time to vote. Hell, I write up the analyses of legislation, and look how much stuff I missed or misunderstood about the bills last session. It's a lot of information to process! So when someone starts bitching about your bill in the voting phase, feel safe in the knowledge that they probably weren't using a deliberate political ploy - more likely they were just too lazy to look at your bill in close detail until they had to make a decision about it. Ilanin posted:For what it's worth, I think this sort of struggle with specificity and trying to play all your moves three years in advance is most of the fun of a legislative LP. Maybe it'd also be fun to see this game played properly - if somebody wants to do a companion LP without a council screwing things up, I'd certainly read it - but ultimately for me the question isn't "how can we best direct Wiz to win the game?" but "can we plan ahead sufficiently well to win the game despite playing it in a way no sensible person would ever attempt?" Personally, I feel like most of the fun of legislative LPs is in arguing about WHAT winning is, not HOW to win - that's why Crete ended up being largely consumed by arguments about populism and tyranny instead of arguments about building priorities and army composition. Arguing about whether lasers are more useful than missiles is something best left to experts who know how the game works, but everyone can get involved and invested in arguments about whether to use those lasers to export democracy or to safeguard a city on a hill. When everyone is basically pointed in the same direction, there's no real conflict or drama - the real floorshow comes from when people have different ideas about where they want to end up. Trouble is the only real "what" to argue about in TLF seems to be "Who do we court for Federation status and who do we not?" In some ways it feels like genocidechat happened because there wasn't a whole lot else to meaningfully argue about so it got expanded beyond the limits of sanity and then beat to death. Tomn fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 23:27
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TBH the whole 'So lazy I can't be bothered just gonna vote randomly' has become an obnoxious gimmick bandwagon in itself and is starting to take the fun out of running this LP for me. I'll give some thoughts to how I can make the system better deal with the complexity of the game though, and will try harder to follow the spirit of the bills.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:28
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Tomn posted:You know, I recognized the Rebel Blob quit but not the follow-up posts. They actually fit surprisingly well, don't they? This is a fair point - the gameplay is very complex but the overarching choices you make actually aren't. Simply having a series of votes on broad policies honestly might just work better. What would you guys think about scrapping the whole party made legislation and just having a series of broader choices made by me to vote on? Wiz fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 23:44
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Tomn posted:Oh, sure, I can see why the Council in general might like having the Order around. I'm just surprised when someone wants to join us, is all. It's like meeting someone who genuinely and sincerely wants to work for the IRS. I like things that are practical, and have no particular ideological goal other than wanting to figure out this system efficiently and do the best I can, with only a vague notion of what might be best, because I'm aware that I don't really get how this all works; in light of those feelings, being part of a party that mainly tries to work out what all the stuff we're voting on actually does just seems like the best option for me. In short, yay space-IRS, I guess! ...It's that or Lazy Assholes, and I am too much of a big softy to be an rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:45
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Anticheese posted:
Still here too, sorta. On vacation 
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Aug 7, 2014 23:50
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Wiz posted:This is a fair point - the gameplay is very complex but the overarching choices you make actually aren't. Simply having a series of votes on broad policies honestly might just work better. What would you guys think about scrapping the whole party made legislation and just having a series of broader choices made by me to vote on? I'm biased, but I like legislation.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:53
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Wiz posted:This is a fair point - the gameplay is very complex but the overarching choices you make actually aren't. Simply having a series of votes on broad policies honestly might just work better. What would you guys think about scrapping the whole party made legislation and just having a series of broader choices made by me to vote on? Perhaps, rather than throwing out legislative sessions entirely, you could make them cover longer periods of time, and be about more general stuff. And then when a war pops up or some other crisis, we vote on your response to that from a few options, rather than having a full legislative session. I mean, I think we just proposed a bunch of federation forming legislation in response to the Borines being attacked. That... vaguely follows, but isn't quite what the whole emergency session was for, as I understood it.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:54
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Eiba posted:I've been having a lot of fun with the minutiae, but taking a step back... yeah, none of that stuff even seems to matter or be interesting to the game. It's fun in this topic, to an extent, but we're not really doing anything interesting here. Have us set trends, as opposed to specific directives? Could work.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:54
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Wiz posted:This is a fair point - the gameplay is very complex but the overarching choices you make actually aren't. Simply having a series of votes on broad policies honestly might just work better. What would you guys think about scrapping the whole party made legislation and just having a series of broader choices made by me to vote on? And so Rebel Blob finally gets his wish by (very indirectly) convincing you to change your legislative LP format.  Edit: But seriously, I know I'm your favourite poster and everything, but you don't need to dissolve the whole legislature for good just because I'm resigning. Life will go on, Wiz. Viscardus fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Aug 7, 2014 |
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Aug 7, 2014 23:55
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Wiz posted:This is a fair point - the gameplay is very complex but the overarching choices you make actually aren't. Simply having a series of votes on broad policies honestly might just work better. What would you guys think about scrapping the whole party made legislation and just having a series of broader choices made by me to vote on? I'd be a bit sad to lose the whole party system, especially now that we're starting to really establish proper characters to the parties - but on the other hand, I foresee mostly budget debates and "Did anyone remember to legislate for X?" in our future if we continue on as we have.
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Aug 7, 2014 23:58
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Tomn posted:I'd be a bit sad to lose the whole party system, especially now that we're starting to really establish proper characters to the parties - but on the other hand, I foresee mostly budget debates and "Did anyone remember to legislate for X?" in our future if we continue on as we have. Like real politics....yay!!  Though it's still fun to read it all.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:04
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Viscardus posted:And so Rebel Blob finally gets his wish by (very indirectly) convincing you to change your legislative LP format. It doesn't have anything to do with you, posters quitting because they take stufg personally will happen in every legislative LP and is not an issue, but it feels like the legislative sessions are growing increasingly anemic and the Lazy Assholes gimmick is getting very old, between these two things my own enjoyment is wavering. Eiba's idea sounds good though... Legislation for long term policy and special votes as needed. Wiz fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 00:06
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mauman posted:Like real politics....yay!! If you want the full sensation, stand up and read one of Tomn's budget analysis posts out loud; that'll give you a good idea of what a filibuster's like...
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Aug 8, 2014 00:07
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We could split the difference - assuming Wiz can offer a few options to pick and choose, parties could still organize by the kind of things that they would support. So, the HSF could keep supporting things that make the Hydral great, Revengeance can focus on doling out the harshness, ANCAP can focus on money, and so on. There wouldn't be any particular advantage to being in a party, mind you, other than a simple way of guessing how things are likely to go. But they might still be fun to have around.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:08
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Ilanin posted:If you want the full sensation, stand up and read one of Tomn's budget analysis posts out loud; that'll give you a good idea of what a filibuster's like... No thats what a filibuster is supposed to be like, these days politicians can filibuster by basically raising their hand and saying 'I filibuster' because yes they really are that loving lazy.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:09
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Wiz posted:It doesn't have anything to do with you, posters quitting because they take stufg personally will happen in every legislative LP and is not an issue, but it feels like the legislative sessions are growing increasingly anemic and the Lazy Assholes gimmick is getting very old, between these two things my own enjoyment is wavering. It's not my intention to gently caress up your LP, Wiz. As with the silly voting games gimmick, just say the word and I will shut it down.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:10
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Wiz posted:It doesn't have anything to do with you, posters quitting because they take stufg personally will happen in every legislative LP and is not an issue, but it feels like the legislative sessions are growing increasingly anemic and the Lazy Assholes gimmick is getting very old, between these two things my own enjoyment is wavering. Session 1: 77 Votes Session 2: 67 Votes Session 3: 58 Votes Session 4: 43 Votes While some drop off is to be expected, I think the petty back and forth and geno-chat definitely played a role in diminishing enthusiasm and participation. I'm not entirely sure how to turn that around. It'd help if we knew why people stopped voting - any lurkers want to chime in on this one? No arguments on your second point.
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Aug 8, 2014 00:10
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