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The rivalries between the army and navy and also between various magnates in the Japanese military-industrial complex were astoundingly vicious and seemed to always trump sound policy.
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Aug 12, 2014 02:45
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kw0134 posted:Upon hearing that the IJN got completely stomped at Midway, Prime Minister Tojo (an Army man) expressed a certain satisfaction that the navy got their comeuppance. As opposed to, you know, total horror that the nation lost four irreplaceable fleet carriers and that they were now in no position to counter the Americans at sea in a war he helped start. 
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Aug 12, 2014 03:08
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If I recall correctly the rivalry between the IJA and IJN got so bad junior officers were assassinating each other to advance position in their respective services. One of the biggest differences was "Strike North" versus "Strike South". Once Japan decided it needed to expand, the Army supported the Strike North plan, involving war and occupation in China whereas the Navy favored striking Indonesia. The government ultimately felt war with China was more prudent, and thus began the Second Sino-Japanese War. However, a group of powerful industrial magnates felt their business would be better served if the Navy was more active, and it was their influence that allowed the IJN to start the Pacific War.
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Aug 12, 2014 03:24
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AJ_Impy posted:The Japanese were pioneers with rifle grenades. Their Type 89 grenade launcher entered service in 1929, and was capable of firing 50mm anti-tank ordnance as well as their impressively adaptable Type 91 fragmentation grenades. Late in the war, they also developed the Lunge Mine and Hook Charge, two desperate antitank weapons for jungle warfare. EDIT: Jesus, I had no idea that the Japanese Imperial forces were such a political clusterfuck. How the hell did these guys manage to conquer like a eighth of the planet with that kind of infighting? 
Ratoslov fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 04:24
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Soylent Pudding posted:If I recall correctly the rivalry between the IJA and IJN got so bad junior officers were assassinating each other to advance position in their respective services. One of the biggest differences was "Strike North" versus "Strike South". Once Japan decided it needed to expand, the Army supported the Strike North plan, involving war and occupation in China whereas the Navy favored striking Indonesia. The government ultimately felt war with China was more prudent, and thus began the Second Sino-Japanese War. However, a group of powerful industrial magnates felt their business would be better served if the Navy was more active, and it was their influence that allowed the IJN to start the Pacific War. Moving into Siberia (the "Northern Resource Area") I think was abandoned more because the Army had their asses handed to them by Georgy Zhukov at Khalkin Gol than anything else. Ratoslov posted:EDIT: Jesus, I had no idea that the Japanese Imperial forces were such a political clusterfuck. How the hell did these guys manage to conquer like a eighth of the planet with that kind of infighting? There wasn't a lot of anything in that eighth, mind you. At the height of Japanese conquest they had barely taken anything that increased their production capacity. Nazi Germany gaining control of the Skoda Works in Czechoslovakia probably did more for them than Japan taking the entirety of the Philippines.
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Aug 12, 2014 04:31
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Ratoslov posted:EDIT: Jesus, I had no idea that the Japanese Imperial forces were such a political clusterfuck. How the hell did these guys manage to conquer like a eighth of the planet with that kind of infighting? Competitively 
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Aug 12, 2014 04:37
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Conquering is much easier than holding. Both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan focused on military production instead of economic rebuilding coming out of the depression. They both sacrificed long term economic growth to build a military machine that let them get in a few good sucker punches against the other powers. The Japanese army was already struggling in China (motto: we have reserves) by the time the Pacific War kicked off. The IJN used that temporary military advantage to knock over British, Dutch, and American colonies at the ends of long supply lines and far from the mother countries. Though even after the loss of Singapore the Royal Navy based out of Ceylon fought a brilliant hit and run campaign in the indochina region that prevented further Japanese expansion toward the Indian Ocean. Ultimately, neither in China nor in the Pacific did Japan really have the reserves or production capacity to hold onto that territory once the combined industrial might of the United States and British Empire were turned toward total war.
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Aug 12, 2014 05:06
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Let us not forget that during this time Japan was also pouring quite a bit of research into a Death Ray, having stopped research on the Atomic Bomb.
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Aug 12, 2014 05:34
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Also re the IJN - they had excellent (read - new and effective) tactics and tools at the start of the war. They were much better at night fighting than the US and allied navies, and the Zero made mincemeat of any inter-war aircraft it faced. Once the USA started uparmouring its fighters and improving their doctrine, and got radar assisted gunnery, Japan had nothing to counter it. Well, that, and for the battle of Leyte Gulf, the fact that the entire of Taffy-3 was crewed by people with GIANT loving BALLS OF STEEL. "We're just a Destroyer, let's CHARGE that squadron of Cruisers." And the pilots were just as gutsy "Out of Ammo? Sure, but THEY don't know that!"
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Aug 12, 2014 05:44
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TheCosmicMuffet posted:On a sort-of related note, the japanese are the root of the modern ballistic missile submarine. The Germans had also put work into figuring out how to use submarines to bring V2s close enough to the US to shoot at New York: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_U-boat
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Aug 12, 2014 06:09
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Emprah posted:Let us not forget that during this time Japan was also pouring quite a bit of research into a Death Ray, having stopped research on the Atomic Bomb. For peaceful purposes, of course.
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Aug 12, 2014 06:40
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Veloxyll posted:Well, that, and for the battle of Leyte Gulf, the fact that the entire of Taffy-3 was crewed by people with GIANT loving BALLS OF STEEL. For those who haven't read it yet The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors is a great and easy read about Taffy 3 at Leyte Gulf. The book focuses on the USS Samuel B. Roberts a tiny destroyer escort armed with 2 5" guns and crewed by reservists that stares down a Japanese cruiser. The other standard literature recommendation in these threads is, of course, Shattered Sword which is about Midway.
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Aug 12, 2014 06:42
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Emprah posted:Let us not forget that during this time Japan was also pouring quite a bit of research into a Death Ray, having stopped research on the Atomic Bomb. US looked into that sorta thing too! In fact, two days after his death in 1943, most of Nikola Tesla's property including a lot of research materials and notes were confiscated by the FBI looking for evidence of the "Peace Ray" (Death Ray) weapon he had sometimes mused the feasibility of and even once claimed to have built and tested.
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Aug 12, 2014 06:48
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Soylent Pudding posted:Ultimately, neither in China nor in the Pacific did Japan really have the reserves or production capacity to hold onto that territory once the combined industrial might of the United States and British Empire were turned toward total war. And in all-out war, industrial capacity is everything. The U.S. alone had something like 8 times the industrial capacity of Imperial Japan at it's peak. Picking a fight with the U.S. under those conditions was maybe the dumbest political decision of World War II, which had quite a few bad political decisions.
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Aug 12, 2014 06:50
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Zeond posted:For those who haven't read it yet The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors is a great and easy read about Taffy 3 at Leyte Gulf. The book focuses on the USS Samuel B. Roberts a tiny destroyer escort armed with 2 5" guns and crewed by reservists that stares down a Japanese cruiser. Neptune's Inferno by the author of Tin Can Soldiers is also fantastic.
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Aug 12, 2014 06:52
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Ratoslov posted:And in all-out war, industrial capacity is everything. The U.S. alone had something like 8 times the industrial capacity of Imperial Japan at it's peak. Picking a fight with the U.S. under those conditions was maybe the dumbest political decision of World War II, which had quite a few bad political decisions. Nah, dumbest decision was Hitler declaring war on the US a few days later. Japan at least had the excuse that they really didn't have much of a choice. The various embargoes Roosevelt had set up were slowly strangling them, and they were basically looking at a choice of accede to his stated demands and stop their war, which likely would have collapsed their economy, continue to operate as is, which likely would have collapsed their economy, or go with the sneak attack plan. I mean the plan was never to defeat the US, it was simply supposed to hopefully buy enough time to allow them to snap up everything in the Western Pacific they wanted and then optimistically negotiate a peace.
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Aug 12, 2014 07:24
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Lord Koth posted:Nah, dumbest decision was Hitler declaring war on the US a few days later. There's no guarantee the US would have declared war over an invasion of Siam, Burma or the DEI without an attack on Pearl/Phillipines but that's delving into serious alt-history.
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Aug 12, 2014 07:27
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uPen posted:There's no guarantee the US would have declared war over an invasion of Siam, Burma or the DEI without an attack on Pearl/Phillipines but that's delving into serious alt-history. Of course, any Japanese actions against the DEI would have resulted in the US heavily reinforcing the Philippines, which were a huge threat right in the middle of Japanese supply lines, and which the US was already reinforcing by the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. Given the timing of the operation, much like the German invasion of the Soviet Union the Japanese declaration of War on the US probably happened at the best possible time for the Japanese, when the US was still relatively weak in the Pacific and Japan (Barely) had the manpower needed to take and hold the territory it considered crucial to their future growth. However, like Barbarossa, as it turned out that no matter how good their initial gains were, they had no way of actually knocking their opponent out of the fight.
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Aug 12, 2014 08:03
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The fleet at Perl Harbor was an implicit threat that Japan could not ignore. With the benefit of hindsight we can discuss exactly what it would have taken for the US to start a hot war with Japan, but the Japanese could not have known for sure and were not completely insane for believing that the buildup in Hawaii represented an attack force that was eventually going to move on them regardless.
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Aug 12, 2014 08:31
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  There is a whole new round of promotions for our generals.  Medium tanks are researched and then sent into production at a second tank factory.  9th Division is cut off, but our recon reports show that the enemy here is extremely weak.  We strike at the city here, but are held off by a few officers in the end,  A second wave clears the city, and our troops march in.  With Fez taken, we have broken the back of the Sultinate resistance on this front.  The Mengoub front is going to be a harder nut to crack. The enemy has brought in a large number of armoured cars. We need our own tanks, and some anti-tank guns.  We clear out most of the pockets – one staff group remains in that HQ trapped behind our lines.  I tweak production once more.   We take some losses as the mechanized Sultinate forces hit us hard. Soylent Pudding increases in rank once more.  After some production issues, our first submarines roll off the slipways and out into the sea under the command of Admiral Yapping Eevee.  Over on the Fez front we all but destroy the Sultinate forces. After they are wiped out, the Kawaii Mechanized Command and the Impyrial Guard shall take up a defensive posture against the Dominion and the Soviet borders.  The last pocket is wiped out, and we move our forced to the border. We do manage to take another raw materials mine.   We lose a sub to an enemy airstrike. But the losses are not quite as bad this turn – it should be noted that these are just the losses in the enemies turn, not total losses.  The main problem for this turn is the fact that the Sultinate has landed troops near Miyazaki!  I don't want to send to many troops there, so I create a single division and stock it with lots of killing power.  And air strike and a submarine movement later, and the enemy division is not looking that healthy. Two more subs go out.  We roll up the flank of the eastern front. We are getting superiority here slowly.  The Fez front is going well. It helps that they have no coastal cities here, so it is very hard for them to resupply their forces.  A Sultinate counter offensive begins.  They are able to do damage to our units and push forwards.   The Sultinate's attacks have cost them badly.  They have advanced several hexes, but only against our older units. This gives me to opportunity to pocket them, if I can hold their offensive off.  First we push back the enemy division that is raiding our lands.  I then use all by bombardment power to soften up the lead Sultinate units. The tank unit with a yellow bar is one I have just reinforced with all this turns production.  Although it costs me some men, I find two HQ units – the men I lost is nothing compared to the damage this will cause to the enemy command structure.  Fez is now all but secure. We have now taken two ore mines from the Sultinate, and the third will be ours next turn. This will cripple their ability to produce machines of war.  I purchase number 2 in our little vote, Rifle/SMG II, as you can see, this gives us a much better anti-tank capability and more hit points. Unfortunately this is not a universal upgrade – we will need to produce more troops.  This brings me to this session question – this is the Gangzhou Fiefdom border. The enemy has a lot more units there.  We are equally thin on the Orleans Dominion border.  These two powers are at war with each other, and for now it seems to have bogged down outside Carcassonne, but we need to think about this. Do we divert troops from the main war to better protect our borders, or do we go all out to defeat the Sultinate on our continent?  Kent State is winning against the Soviets, having taken two cities and three of their strategic material sites.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:09
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I say we Crush the Sultinate , broker a peace deal and prepare all the while for other nations jealous of our successes.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:15
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Yeah finish what we started. If we don't reinforce then they won't think we're massing troops to attack them. Them attacking us isn't a big worry for me as they've already got a fight on their hands which has apparently turned into a meat grinder. End the Sultinate.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:17
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divert troops from the main war to better protect our borders We can finish up the Sultinate without needing our entire army to defeat them.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:26
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Oh, so I get to command the first naval division? Nifty.  Crush the Sultinate.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:29
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It would be folly of the highest order for either of those two powers to open up a second front while their primary area of operations is still so hotly contested. Let's crush the Sultanate for now, but keep an eye on the Carcassonne front.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:31
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simplefish posted:Yeah finish what we started. If we don't reinforce then they won't think we're massing troops to attack them. Them attacking us isn't a big worry for me as they've already got a fight on their hands which has apparently turned into a meat grinder. Agree
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Aug 13, 2014 06:31
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Trade out older units and send them to the other fronts as replacements show up.
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Aug 13, 2014 06:57
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I agree we should finish off the Sultanate. Then we can prepare another attack, perhaps against whoever is winning that other war, to take out the stronger opponent.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:02
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Where is the option to attack the French while they are occupied? I guess Crushing the Sultanate would also work for now.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:08
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Pvt.Scott posted:broker a peace deal IIRC, Grey said that there is no peace treaties or truces in this game, once two factions start fighting, its To The Death.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:24
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shalafi4 posted:Trade out older units and send them to the other fronts as replacements show up. This. Do units replenish at all, or do we just have to build new troopers? Though I would love to see that spearhead pocketed.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:30
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Crush the Sultinate.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:42
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Veloxyll posted:This. Do units replenish at all, or do we just have to build new troopers? Lost squadrons are lost forever, but damaged ones get replenished over time if in supply. I'd say defend your borders but maybe go all out and take Binzhou so this whole army east of it will run out of supplies. More oil won't hurt either.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:48
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Press on, our borders are secure.
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Aug 13, 2014 09:40
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Keep attacking the Sultanate. No sense moving against other countries while our current opponent is still alive and kicking.
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Aug 13, 2014 10:01
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We can afford to do both, but defeating the existing enemy comes first. 1. Crush the Sultanate on land. 2. Rotate out our old infantry from the Kawaii and Imperial Guard as additional border guards as they move east and are fitted out with new infantry. This will give the appearance of weight while our actual combat power finishes off our enemy. 3. When their front begins to collapse, start building a navy to protect our coasts by finishing the job. To summarize, we should move onwards while lightly strengthening our borders with obsolete infantry. No sense in risking another war, we've got the eastern front ably handled as soon as we get the heavy units of Kawaii and Imperial there. Readingaccount fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 10:09
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Pakled posted:It would be folly of the highest order for either of those two powers to open up a second front while their primary area of operations is still so hotly contested. Let's crush the Sultanate for now, but keep an eye on the Carcassonne front. Never underestimate how stupid your enemy can be. Why, I've heard tales of a nation much like our own who attempted a war-ending alpha strike on an enemy of much, much greater industrial capacity! That said, Crush the Sultanate. Slam everything we have on wiping them clean and we'll free up a much more effective border force. Trying to garrison our borders AND defeat the Sultanate is just going to draw out the time it takes to kill the Sultanate, leaving us more vulnerable to sudden attacks.
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Aug 13, 2014 11:41
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Crush the Sultanate
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Aug 13, 2014 13:08
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Crush the Sultanate, see them driven before us, and hear the lamentations of their women.
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Aug 13, 2014 13:33
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Yeah, because there's no way to push for peace, we should probably focus on Crushing the Sultanate before worrying about anyone else. We can beef up the border a little, but I doubt we will get attacked. Also, I thought the AI was too dumb to attack our rear? 
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Aug 13, 2014 15:11
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