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kylejack posted:Yes, it should be released by Gawker, but only if Gawker is certain that they have the right name. The cops should have released it already, but the fact that they haven't is no excuse for being imprecise and possibly getting it wrong and ruining an innocent person's life. Yeah, the Ferguson police would hate for an innocent person's life to get disrupted. I get your point and agree with it but man, not a great way to phrase it. Police are now claiming the officer sustained "facial injuries" in the altercation with Mike Brown. The ever shifting story and again, unwillingness to identify the officer and show proof make me real skeptical
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Aug 13, 2014 22:53
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVrziJOe5x0
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Aug 13, 2014 22:55
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Fried Chicken posted:Yeah, the Ferguson police would hate for an innocent person's life to get disrupted. 
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Aug 13, 2014 23:00
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If the police really cared about the wrong person being mis-identified, they should release the name of the killer.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:02
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/08/13/Missouri-Riots-Let-the-Facts-Determine-the-OutcomeAlfred S. Regnery posted:The world is outraged over the shooting of a black teenager in suburban St. Louis over an altercation with police. The headlines scream that police “executed an innocent young black man” and the head of the St. Louis NAACP says “another teenaged boy has been slaughtered by law enforcement.” ABC News quotes the mother of the deceased boy saying the cop who shot him should get the death penalty, and the Washington Post describes him as a “gentle giant.” But the facts in the case are still virtually unknown to the lynch mob, as well as to the world. Sounds a little like justice in the South in the 1950s.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:05
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Time to read Zinn posted:http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/08/13/Missouri-Riots-Let-the-Facts-Determine-the-Outcome holy poo poo this is loving disgusting
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Aug 13, 2014 23:08
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Why riot now, and not during the Civil Rights Movement? The answer to this question is surprisingly simple: St. Louis, both city and county, are in transition. Let us examine where race riots had occured during the civil rights movements: Neighborhoods which were the most integrated had the most violent riots. In Chicago, riots occured in communities which had 60-40 majority:minority composition without power sharing in representative government. In Detroit, the riots occured in 70-30 minority:majority neighborhoods and spread to 30-70 minority:majority neighborhoods. In St. Louis, there were almost no minority-majority integrated communities during the civil rights movement. Why? Let us examine the history and geology of St. Louis. Unlike other midwestern states, the city is limited by geography the bounds of its expansion. It grew north-south along the river, with expansion inland coming only after the mechanized revolution allowed for cheap drainage of swamps and irrigation canals to be dug. Let us have a snapshot of the city in 1947, after the return of GIs and the beginning of the baby boom: The city's neighborhoods are aligned north-south, with a central core clearly identified by its density. From the core radiated extensive mass transit networks: southwest down Gravois, northwest up Hodiamont were the two primary streetcar arteries. In addition, several northwest-southwest and west-east heavy rail lines had emerged. Further, there was a north-south line which intersected and allowed route switching running along, roughly, the east boundary of Forest Park. Roughly, where the interstates are now, the commuter rail lines went. In addition, almost all the current freight rail infrastructure was used for interurban commuter service until the 60s and early 70s. If one were to make an animated artery map of St. Louis transit in 1947, they would see a distinct north-south flow towards the core in the morning, and an evening rush outward along these same routes. On the weekend, the core district would be considered westward of the current shell of a downtown--roughly where Fox Theatre and Moolah's are. What was the impact of this in 1947? On the ground, mass transit use was composed of integrated ridership along a segregated system. Now, I stated that the city was southern because of how much it lacked integration. To cement that statement, take a look at neighborhood racial composition in 1947. What makes St. Louis a southern city? While northern cities would discourage working class communities from integrating through service cuts, they would not outright prohibit an individual from choosing to live in a mixed community. In St. Louis, citizen's groups would. For instance, in Chicago, several inner-ring commuter suburbs grew because of a racially mixed middle and upper class wishing to separate themselves from lower-class hooliganism. If you lived in Bronzeville and made a fortune through honest business, your ambition would be to move to Beverly Hills or Homewood. In St. Louis, white citizen's militias would firebomb, lynch, or rape any individuals who moved to a neighborhood not designated of their race. Once again, it comes back to transit services: while commuties elsewhere in the Midwest attempted to reign in the rate of service integration by codifying sundown laws, there was no need in St. Louis. If you were out of place racially, you were out of place for a specific purpose. There was no fear that you would rob a white house and then use transit to return home. How could there be? Everyone knew where the Germans lived, where the French landholders gravitated, and where the different colored populations were kept. Yes, there were slums; there were segregated slums, by racial hue, class, religion, and mother language. St. Louis is an old city with an aristocratic French culture. It is slow to change, and only changes when the optics force it to. Why should it do so otherwise? It is the best culture in the world, the most literary, the best artistic, the greatest civil society ever known to man, and it is the responsibility of the masses to recognize the greatness of the elites so that they may share in cultural diffusion. Individuals are resilliant: humans adapt the power structures they understand as beneficial, and work within those systems to advance their social mobility. If you were poor and darker black, you would live in the poor and dark community. You'd receive services as equal to the Swedish neighborhood acrosd the 90 foot wide boulevard and had the freedom to shop there any time. As long as you returned home to your island in this urban sea when the times called, you would live under the system in place which granted you a better chance at clearly-delineated social mobility. You had full rights and opportunity to be represented by your own community, to be policed by your own community, to feel a member in a greater community. In this sense, St. Louis was still very much a model city of the year 1900 in the year 1947. In America, there is an ideological blindness towards history: we see it as a continual march forward of rights, of expanding the franchise, yet do not discuss how Boston Marriage was both universally legal and socially accepted in 1900, while now Americans on the whole find it much less so. Living as a young, dark-skinned black male of Bantu descent in Chicago of 1900 would allow one to perceive a greater chance at social mobility than living in Montgommery in 1947. Similarly, to be born in St. Louis as a baby boomer, one would see life in the city as providing a greater chance at mobility than living that same life in Houston, in Birmingham, in Chicago. And why not? The city had systems and treated everyone equally, as long as you followed the rules and returned home when told to. To resist this command would be unthinkable; your neighborhood would shun you, businesses would boycott you, trains and trollies--conducted by your neighbors--ignore you. Simply, you'd be driven out of Missouri and over to East St. Louis and have to pay the tolls any time you wished to visit. This changed with the interstates. No longer did the exiles have to pay the toll to access the emerald white city; no longer did they have to use clearly known transit routes to return to their homes. The first suburban migration fron St. Louis took place along the major east-west corridor, the modern I-64/40, and was done so by white middle-class individuals looking for the same social dynamics which created the inner-ring suburbs of Chicago and Detroit. They wanted to live with members of other religions, to live with their nice English or Italian or German wife outside their designated neighborhood, to not be shunned by the landed aristocracy for their ethnic mixing. So the Swedish neighborhood experienced out-migration rapidly; so the German neighborhoods moved to Clayton; so the Irish weren't restricted to Soulard's shittiest watering holes and the archgrounds became a quarter-populated slum. So the landed aristocracy of St. Louis was faxing lowered income with equal taxation, and chose to lower rents to a level which even blacks could afford, and so that Swedish-Norweigian area became Kings Oak, became Forest Park Southeast. The city, seeing reduced tax income, cut back on services while following federal incentives to maintain a semblance of a budget. It attempted to create projects to demonstrate to the poor and middle class whites they need not flight from the other whites. Yes, white flight occured in St. Louis, from the city to the county: Unlike the rest of the nation, this white flight was from whites, as had played out in the rest of the nation between 1914 and 1941. Often, you'll find people apt to say St. Louis is a northern city with a southern culture. The only other city in America like this is Washington, D.C.; ask a local if they mean, "Like D.C.?" Here, we find that remnant of French landowning aristocracy living in a city of German neuvo-riche: You can only compare St. Louis to the city founded by George Washington, engineered by Lafayette, that city which is the crowning jewel of the American nation. I'm here to tell you that St. Louis is not D.C., that it is not the seat of highest government for the greatest nation on earth, that while there were plans for it to be, its slaveholding cousins, its namesake compromise, forced those plans abandoned in their civil war. You screwed the pooch, heriditary aristocracy of the southern breed, and now must live with the consequences. Enough moralizing and onto concrete examples. When the first suburbs were built, mass transit still operated within the city. As both city and county cut services, as the Federal government reimbursed states for highway spending [a subject I once drove to the Ike library to research, and upon which I hold as the reason that military integration and basic voting rights passed Congress], as the railroads invented Switchbacking to reduce their tax and operating expenses, as service rates and reliability diminshed, as the environmental laws incentivized building tear-down and parking lots for 'clean water runoff,' the city moved from a planned river hub to an unplanned commuter district. The whites integrated. Instead of asking, where are your parents from, the optics made it better to ask, where did you go to highschool. In that question is revealed the true nature of Eastern Missouri: mass communication has made it unacceptable to discriminate against what majority culture defines as white (we certainly don't, its more important to know your heriditary lineage than 'who sent you' or 'what do you do' or 'what're you inventing today?'. So, instead of accepting those loving kikes or wops, you ask where they went to highschool and learn rapidly to associate the highschool answer with sensible differences: kids from this school smell differently than kids from that school, even if they're just a bunch of drat niggers to me. You know, I like that smell better, at least those niggers are some of the good ones. Please do excuse the crass language; its an accurate representation of the underlying sentiments I observed in St. Louis. And it has sound psychological evidence, sound anthropoligical reasoning. You should never know how connected someone is by looking at them, which is why other cities have been able to intregrate their administrative offices and share access to elite power. In Chicago, you ask where someone's from and you learn the characters of the neighborhoods and suburbs. You don't ask where someone went to highschool. Its drat impolite to use highschool as the primary indicator of status, since it should be assumed everyone has an opportunity to attend highschool. If you associate highschool eith status, you focus on improving the reputation of your answer. Same for neighborhood, except you can improve neighborhoods with community organizing. You can't improve the reputation of your highschool with community organizing, as the reputation of your highschool is directly tied to its associated reputations. So you find that highschool becane the heriditary question asked in St. Louis by the boomers, as its just too impolite to ask their parents' question. And in response, you find that the city implemented a desegregated highschool policy during the civil rights movement. As its neighborhoods were emptied, and their shells segregated by perceived barriers that henceforce had not existed, St. Louis became a city of two races: white and black. And as the civil rights movement occured, this newfound freedom of mobility prevented the riots that had hitherfore been seen elsewhere. Riots, as historical events, are the best off-hand proxy for level of racial and economic integration within communities. Riots occur when the rate of physical integration and social integration are unequal. Riots occur when you're the best city in America, when everyone just needs to listen and obey the system and go home when we tell them to because that's how our parents solved these problems and prevented the city from burning down in the 60s and 70s. No, St. Louis has had a much slower burn, the current burn of Detroit: one house at a time, one empty block followed by another, rather than collective action resulting in mass burns. Another example of concrete policy in St. Louis that is an attempt to cement that "Just return home when we tell you to and everything will be ok" attitude: All the drat roadblocks. You built grid system for a reason--mobility and inter-connection. You built barriers to those grids for another reason--to prevent mobility at the level of the block. While other cities only segregated their working-class neighborhoods with their first highways, St. Louis segregated every community and then went on to segregate every block. Take, for instance, Skinker-DeBalivier and the West End. Both were economic hub communities until the 70s and the outright illegality of purely racial segregation. You can segregate by proxy, never directly. But these neighborhoods? As cars became proxy for individuals, you had to wall off your community from outsiders by creating narrow gateways and restricting access to those who know the locality. Sure, they're sold as measures to 'prevent crime like burglaries,' only because its improper to state that they were erected to prevent access by potential criminals, since this demands that one know who potential criminals are rather than what potential crimes could be. And ask yourself, who do these neighborhoods see as potential criminals? I know the Ferguson PD has its direct answer, for it is the job of the police to know the who, what, where, when, and why of crimes in that order. I mean, christ, I'd go dancing in NoCo with my African friends and, although they are in the global 1%, although they would come to the meeting in a fitted and custom-tailored suit with the same watch that the Schlaffly or Busch daughters wore, they'd be treated by their race as the primary determinant of their wealth status until a local would associate me with them. And this attitude extended to business meetings and finance, of all places, where one would hope fiscal greed to take paramount importance over heriditary attributes. So, what can the city do to prevent future riots? Do you want unrealistic policy suggestions or suggestions of what is possible, politically acceptable, and profitable? The first is easy and has obvious answers, and will never happen. The second may be cynical, borderline illegal, certainly immoral, and would still be better than the status quo.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:09
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SirKibbles posted:Honestly I'm not a big fan of Al so I'll elaborate I don't have a problem with him coming to the protest as an individual but holy hell is he polarizing as gently caress and while calling him a race baiter is racist bullshit he does like the spotlight on him. But honestly that's not a problem limited to Al or Jessie that's an NAACP problem. You sure used a lot of letters to spell "uppity."
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Aug 13, 2014 23:10
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Petr posted:You sure used a lot of letters to spell "uppity." There's legit criticism of Sharpton but unsurprisingly, white folks don't ever seem to mention those things.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:12
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Why riot now? Because we had the civil rights movement 50 years ago and nothing's loving changed.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:13
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bassguitarhero posted:Why riot now? Because we had the civil rights movement 50 years ago and nothing's loving changed. Um excuse me we have a black president.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:13
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Time to read Zinn posted:http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/08/13/Missouri-Riots-Let-the-Facts-Determine-the-Outcome The hottest of takes.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:17
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bassguitarhero posted:Why riot now? Because we had the civil rights movement 50 years ago and nothing's loving changed. Everything's changed. Some cities have a culture that embraces the positive aspects of that change. St. Louis is not one of them. If anything, civil rights in St. Louis have gotten worse. I'd dare say the openness of their attitude is worse than at a Klan rally in Mississippi. As far as I know, the Klan has dropped "ship them all back elsewhere" from its platforn.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:21
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My Imaginary GF posted:Everything's changed. What's changed for people like Mike Brown? e: and Trayvon Martin, Renisha McBride, Kenneth Chamberlain Sr. etc?
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Aug 13, 2014 23:30
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My Imaginary GF posted:So, what can the city do to prevent future riots? Do you want unrealistic policy suggestions or suggestions of what is possible, politically acceptable, and profitable? The first is easy and has obvious answers, and will never happen. The second may be cynical, borderline illegal, certainly immoral, and would still be better than the status quo. Alright, could you elaborate on what this would entail then?
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Aug 13, 2014 23:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:Everything's changed. Some cities have a culture that embraces the positive aspects of that change. St. Louis is not one of them. If anything, civil rights in St. Louis have gotten worse. I'd dare say the openness of their attitude is worse than at a Klan rally in Mississippi. As far as I know, the Klan has dropped "ship them all back elsewhere" from its platforn. Optics changed; reality lags. Colorblind racism now rules the day, burying the same Civil Rights issues of yesteryear under code words and statistics. The driving mechanisms behind St. Louis's institutional racism may be different, but the results are common throughout the U.S., even in cities with supposedly progressive mindsets.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:33
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My Imaginary GF posted:Everything's changed. Some cities have a culture that embraces the positive aspects of that change. St. Louis is not one of them. If anything, civil rights in St. Louis have gotten worse. I'd dare say the openness of their attitude is worse than at a Klan rally in Mississippi. As far as I know, the Klan has dropped "ship them all back elsewhere" from its platforn. Some cities =/= the nation as a whole, and while yes, there are outposts and enclaves where the full brunt of the Civil Rights movement and subsequent struggles for equality between races, genders, etc have been fully embraced, the sad truth is that the majority of the country has not changed and for people like Mike Brown, Eric Garner, etc, etc, it has gotten worse in many ways, as the gains in civil rights and racial equality have been eroded, undermined, or ignored. No denying that there are some specific contextual bases for riots happened in St. Louis instead of NYC, Philly, Houston, etc, but this has been a long time coming no matter where the occasion of brutality and oppression occurred in the US. The Ferguson PD just overplayed their hand and pushed this particular community too far, and media picked up on it before it could be quashed. Edit: And then you have idiots like this who presume that racism is only a problem in places like STL, so why wouldn't you just move away already?! I mean, his GRANDMA did it, why can't you? https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/499551686500036608 https://twitter.com/joshzepps/status/499594932647366656 Mat Cauthon fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 23:34
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Cross-posted from the USPol thread:Aerox posted:Look who's shown up to counter-protest in Clayton (right next to Ferguson). gently caress this country E: Apparently the two are about ten miles apart 
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Aug 13, 2014 23:37
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Magres posted:Cross-posted from the USPol thread: Pretty sure that's been established as fake. Also, Clayton is not anywhere near Ferguson.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:40
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They are ten miles away in a financial/office district. Their "protest" is a joke. Or it's fake.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:40
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SedanChair posted:What's changed for people like Mike Brown? For Brown, he was not even given the chance to integrate into white culture. While the schools had a successful integration program, that's gone away. Now, even kids don't get to know kids outside their race. Trayvon, Renisha, Kenneth were all accepted by their communities, and had a community larger than their block. Its easier to say nothing has change than to admit change is a glacial and layered process. My argument is that St. Louis is unique in America with its brand of horridness, as it markets itself as a city while it runs itself with the social dynamics of a small town. The implication is that change to St. Louis must be designed solely for St. Louis, and that, while certain policy reforms would have a beneficial impact in the rest of America, those same policies implemented in St. Louis do nothing to address the root cause of its horridness and do nothing to change their implementation of policy. E: AstheWorldWorlds posted:Alright, could you elaborate on what this would entail then? Sure. I'll start writing up my suggestions right now; it may take an hour or two until I finish. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 23:41
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Stultus Maximus posted:Pretty sure that's been established as fake. Also, Clayton is not anywhere near Ferguson. Unless google maps is lying, they're about ten miles apart, which is right next to each other even in cities. The thing being fake is a valid concern, but saying saying they're no where near each other is such a "you're not a real city person  " bunch of crap.Like that's walking distance if you do it with a friend and have a couple hours to blow. Especially in a city where the walk is actually interesting. Magres fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 13, 2014 23:41
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I think saying "nothing's changed" is a bit simplified, things have, but to say that racism is greatly reduced is also innaccurate. What's changed is that racism presents itself in different ways and in different terms. Schools are even more segregated now, police are still shooting people for basically being black, inequality is still heavily along racial lines....what's changed is that we have less overt, blatant racism, but "colorblind racism" and "I'm not a racist but" isn't lesser racism, it's just different racism. Sure we don't lynch black kids...the cops simply shoot them. Sure we don't ban blacks from lunch counters, we simply don't go to "sketchy" neighborhoods where blacks eat. That's not to say great strides haven't been made. They have. This is a world where I can marry my fiancee, in a state where it would have been illegal in my grandfathers day, or even my fathers. But not as much has changed as whites like to think.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:45
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My Imaginary GF posted:For Brown, he was not even given the chance to integrate into white culture. While the schools had a successful integration program, that's gone away. Now, even kids don't get to know kids outside their race. Trayvon, Renisha, Kenneth were all accepted by their communities, and had a community larger than their block. What on earth? What makes you say Brown hadn't integrated? He graduated from high school and was going to college. How might he have signaled a sufficient degree of integration?
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Aug 13, 2014 23:48
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My Imaginary GF posted:For Brown, he was not even given the chance to integrate into white culture. While the schools had a successful integration program, that's gone away. Now, even kids don't get to know kids outside their race. Trayvon, Renisha, Kenneth were all accepted by their communities, and had a community larger than their block. I'll wait for your larger argument, but I'd already say that St. Louis is not unique in either of those two regards.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:51
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CNN MSNBC I'M CALLING ALL YOU MOTHERFUCKERS OUT
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Aug 13, 2014 23:52
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Hey at least Obama put out a statement! 
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Aug 13, 2014 23:55
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Magres posted:Like that's walking distance if you do it with a friend and have a couple hours to blow. Especially in a city where the walk is actually interesting.
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Aug 13, 2014 23:57
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Pretty sure that's an LRAD device on the right in this image:  This is all pure intimidation, but it doesn't seem to be working. Didn't the Ferguson police mention that they wanted protests to end before dark? Is that an actual curfew being issued, or is it just a suggestion/veiled threat that they will gently caress them up if they aren't home by the time the streetlights come on?
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Aug 14, 2014 00:11
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Rhesus Pieces posted:Pretty sure that's an LRAD device on the right in this image: The latter. They're putting it in terms of "polite good citizens will end before dark"
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Aug 14, 2014 00:14
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Something about "be in your homes by sundown" is familiar to me but I can't put my finger on it.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:18
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At dark they put up the barricades and let out the helicopter. If you get too close they shoot at you with rubber bullets. They only have the major roads blocked off though so you can still get in if you take residential streets only. There's also a lot of patrol cars on the outer perimeter just sitting in corners.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:19
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SedanChair posted:Something about "be in your homes by sundown" is familiar to me but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe employment with the Ferguson PD was advertised as a chance to police a sundown town.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:20
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Seriously, what the gently caress is this. There's absolutely no need for this. The protesters AREN'T EVEN IN THE STREET, they're on the loving sidewalk in broad daylight. The cops are causing ten times the disruption the protesters are at this point.   They're indistinguishable from national guardsmen or soldiers deployed somewhere in the middle east. The only difference is they have POLICE written on their flak jackets.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:29
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Time to read Zinn posted:http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/08/13/Missouri-Riots-Let-the-Facts-Determine-the-Outcome quote:Intoxicated and high on PCP, he refused to exit the car, resisted arrest and attacked the police officers, who tased him and then hit him with their batons until they could subdue and hand cuff him. Nobody was hurt, nobody initially raised the race issue, and but for the video that a citizen-witness happened to take, the case would have disappeared into obscurity and Rodney King would have probably spent some time in the LA pokey. Wow, in the very next sentence too.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:29
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E: I should shutup and stop derailing about walking distances
Magres fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 00:29
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Magres posted:E: I should shutup and stop derailing about walking distances I guess in this space i'll share my one run in with law enforcement, he was a black man and stopped me for not having a renewed sticker on my license plate. I lied and said it was in the mail and he let me go. Being white rules. D_I fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Aug 14, 2014 |
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Aug 14, 2014 00:32
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Nice ninja edit  Anyway, in actual discussion, has anything else come out about the second shooting? I haven't had the chance to listen to the police radio chatter that got released but I hear it was nothing special. Been stuck in meetings all day so I haven't been able to dig through the internet or twitter or anything to find anything.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:34
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Magres posted:Nice ninja edit Just an average day.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:35
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They are itching to blast that LRAD. I bet they crank those suckers all the way up.
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Aug 14, 2014 00:42
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