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xzzy posted:Horses would be okay for fast travel if tree leaves weren't solid. Which is a shame, but then, if fast travel really were implemented, I feel like there'd be no point in building roads anyway. And that's kind of depressing. Why build a huge, decorated road through a gorgeous wilderness when you just blink from one end to the other? On the other hand, how would you keep that journey from feeling tedious after the first one or two times, and how obnoxious is it to get halfway there and realize you forgot an important item? I don't really know how to fix all this, or where to go from here, but somehow I don't think Minecraft has it quite right yet. Horses never appealed to me much because they always seemed to get caught in crossfire and they were just too finicky. Also, for my money rails are not worth building, even if you don't factor in cost. You have to get all the materials, craft way more rails than you thought you needed, level out or tunnel through lots of terrain, and then there's complications of having the minecart at the proper side and all that. Terraria was actually really brilliant in its implementation: you just use the track and you poof into a minecart, and tracks could be tweaked to be boosters, bouncers, brakes, etc. You didn't need to carry it with you, or have switcher stations, or go "poo poo, I left the minecart at the other end, better walk all the way there", and god forbid you accidentally bump into a sheep or some poo poo along the way, so for true safety the entire track has to be elevated or fenced off or some poo poo, and before you know it the whole thing is a mess and you've got abandoned minecarts in the middle. Worst of all is that even with excessive amounts of booster tracks, minecarts don't even go that fast! Not nearly fast enough to warrant all the setup. It still feels only slightly faster than running, and if you've already cleared a whole path where no slope is higher than 1 block you can just hoof it anyway. Fuego Fish posted:If it wasn't for the fact that mods are always a version or two behind, I'd definitely commit to doing my own custom Minecraft experience and share it with everyone. It'd definitely make for an interesting multiplayer experience, although not being able to customize the base game mechanics is a bit of a sore point. I'd love to introduce a better potion-brewing mechanic, among other things.
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Sep 18, 2014 03:17
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Vib Rib posted:I'm much the same. Once I get settled somewhere I just sort of stay there forever. The thing is that I don't want to do that. Ideally I'd have outposts and secondary bases and little towns and poo poo. When Infdev first came out and we finally got a look at endless worlds, even before there were biomes, I'd build in different places and actually create infrastructure, making long, well lit roads, bridges, and tunnels, all to connect my buildings over long distances. I can't ever say if I just lost interest or if it was the realization that building in different places is pointless finally killed that for me. Fundamentally, the idea of a mineshaft in Minecraft is a joke anyway, because ore doesn't come in veins like in real life, where the entire mineshaft is lined with ore or coal or whatever. It's just a little clump, and those clumps are everywhere at all times. "Mines" and mineshafts are just built as a means to quickly get down to a certain depth or an open cave that's easy to spelunk through. Biome-specific blocks are easily replicated or transplanted and are generally not even that useful to begin with. There's no real reason not to just settle in one place forever. For your thoughts on teleportation/roads, maybe some legit blocks for roads that make you run/walk faster? I've always liked built roads more than rail tracks, aesthetically anyway. Maybe a recipe like cobble/gravel/cobble to make 16 halfblocks of "road". You could lay a shitton down and zip between places. I like the idea of having railways as a means of transporting goods, but it just doesn't seem to work out for me. I wish it was easier to lay down track as I go and when I full up my pack I load it into a chest cart and send it up to my base where it's unloaded into a furnace/hopper/chest/whathaveyou. I always like the idea of making roads and such in multiplayer servers, as well. And I'm seconding what Vib Rib said about Fuego Fish's ideas.
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Sep 18, 2014 03:31
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I honestly think it'd be cool as hell if ores weren't evenly distributed, so only some places would have specific ores. Think Dwarf Fortress-style geology, except less complicated because it doesn't need to be(although it should also have the nice logical mix of different stones, ideally). Basically that and (much)deeper, more varied caves would do wonders for travel/location mattering in Minecraft. Imagine going on a multiplayer server and finding an abandoned mining town, because people went there for ore and didn't find enough or dug it all up so they needed to move on. That'd be so loving rad! What materials are worth depends very heavily on their scarcity, which is why Minecraft has never actually supported any sort of 'economy' even though servers always stick one on. You're almost never gonna trade materials with someone because you can just get it yourself, so there's no value. But if iron isn't easy to find, then it's far more valuable, and so are places that contain it. Not that anything like that will ever happen in vanilla, but a boy can dream.
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Sep 18, 2014 03:33
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Rotten Cookies posted:And I'm seconding what Vib Rib said about Fuego Fish's ideas.
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Sep 18, 2014 03:56
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Please give Fuego Fish 2.5 billion US dollars to build his own Minecraft clone, thanks.IronicDongz posted:I honestly think it'd be cool as hell if ores weren't evenly distributed, so only some places would have specific ores. Think Dwarf Fortress-style geology, except less complicated because it doesn't need to be(although it should also have the nice logical mix of different stones, ideally). Basically that and (much)deeper, more varied caves would do wonders for travel/location mattering in Minecraft. Because you know, that's what minecarts are for. That's why they're called minecarts. Vib Rib fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 04:03
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Vib Rib posted:Everything I've read you write about game design and theory has really struck a chord and all your ideas are great so hey if you ever do come out with this stuff, please do share it, because it sounds awesome. Well my first effort into video game design so far has been an RPG Maker game, which is slow going as gently caress because like an idiot I decided "who needs these default generic fantasy tilesets, I can make my own!" and holy balls it's one Hell of an endeavour for a 2-hour comedy RPG I wasn't even planning on selling for money. Minecraft stuff is a bit more complex because I don't really have the chops for Java, and the idea of having to redo everything every single time the game updates just deadens me to the idea of trying to mod the game myself. Probably why I've been such an outspoken optimist on the API thing. I like the mods which let you customize stuff yourself, like Terrain Control's easy-to-use ini files, or the mod called Ruins which also runs off text files (and is pretty fun), or Custom Stuff 2's truncated Javascript stuff. Ruins is pretty great, you can design buildings (it'll adapt MCedit files, if I remember correctly) that it seeds into the world generation, including things like "25% chance of this block being x, 75% chance of this block being y" which let you do things like this:  That's a graveyard I designed (using gravestones I made in Custom Stuff 2 using some Painterly Pack assets) which was meant to be a more interesting way to spawn mobs than just "they appear at night". I turned off hostile mob generation in all biomes, and had it rely purely on spawners. The graveyard has one open zombie spawner in the middle there, which is an artifact left over from the initial test run. I replaced it with the graves themselves, which work like this: under each patch of dirt, there's a chance to find something.  Might be treasure!  Might be a spawner. There was no way for me to say "the longer this graveyard goes undisturbed, the more mobs it'll produce" so I couldn't really make it more complex than a big open-air dungeon that cranked out the undead. I did a lot of toying around with things that would introduce stuff from "traditional" rpgs into Minecraft, though. Like these!   Barrels! Barrels full of gold coins, as seen in Diablo and countless Diablo clones, that are broken in one hit from a sword or axe. But which also had a chance to spawn a skeleton when destroyed instead, just to keep you on your toes, although for some reason they always spawned without bows and just tried to hug you to death like a zombie instead. Never figured that one out. Ruins had a lot of great potential to introduce some seriously interesting dungeons and other elements - you could make a big-rear end tree a hundred blocks tall, set it as a "ruin" and then have it spawn in forests. I tried that and accidentally typo'd the spawn rate to be 50% instead of 5% and, uh, well. It got a little insane, I'll say that much. Ruins also compatible with Custom Stuff 2, interestingly enough - or at least it was - which meant that I could include the gravestone blocks, or have other weird creations all over the place. I think I designed a spider lair type dungeon, no screenshots to hand unfortunately, which had a bunch of "cocoon" blocks in (along with webs and spider spawners) that contained interesting loot. It's surprising how much interesting the world becomes when you just steal a bunch of poo poo from Diablo and put it in on a whim. If I had the time and energy to do something more original, you can bet it'd be even better. But there's no Minecraft mods out there which let me customize mobs or mechanics at all. Sure, there's ones which introduce new mobs, and new mechanics, but they're all as-is. Nothing that lets you muck around and do what you want. Kinda rambling here, so I'll just cut off and say that if someone were to Vib Rib posted:Please give Fuego Fish 2.5 billion US dollars to build his own Minecraft clone, thanks. I cannot guarantee that all 2.5 billion US dollars would go towards making the clone. I have expenses to think about! But, well, I'd definitely want to make one. I have a whole bunch of ideas and notes on game mechanics and stuff. A couple of billion dollars would buy a lot of programmers.
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Sep 18, 2014 04:18
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I really love the idea of settling somewhere in a sandbox world, and slowly spreading out to search surrounding areas, clear monster dens, find treasure, etc. I think that was the goal for Kleaveland or whatever, the idea of expanding from a central point and trying to clear the world to make it safer to build in. It actually looked really rad, especially some of the stuff they had developed later that didn't show up in this thread, but there's been no news for over a year and I have to assume it's dead. The idea of monsters spawning from nearby lairs/dens/nests/graveyards/whatever is way, way preferable to them just popping in, and it means an easier, understandable method to clearing them out and making your base safer. It means building walls without having to worry about the monsters just spawning into existence behind them. It means the way to clear the area is a fun adventure you have to build up against, prepare for, and have fun setting out into, rather than just... putting a bunch of torches everywhere, every five feet. Barrels, treasure chests, adventure rewards, spider cocoons -- I love loot in games. I loving love it. Weirdly one of my favorite parts in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion was opening those heart-shaped treasure chests at the end of an oblivion tower. There are few moments so enticing as opening a treasure chest and a lot of MMOs and freemium games cash in on that. I think loot containers, dungeons to pillage, stuff like that would really go a long way to make Minecraft more robust. Except that the base game doesn't support it fundamentally. Every time a modpack adds new dungeons or battle towers or whatever, it feels so pointless. First off, I'd love Diablo-style random weapons and armors, like I think hack/mine or whatever tried back in the day, but it falls apart because combat itself is so limited and there's so little that can be done even by the most creative mods within the system's narrow constraints. Some very basic weapon mods like Balkon's add some decent weapon variety with armor penetration and attack speed/reach, and the Aegis Shields mod was great because it turns out a good blocking system is desperately needed in this game (and actually makes skeletons fun to fight) but even those were crippled by the very system they were trying to build in. Then you've got the loot itself. What's really precious that you can give out in Minecraft? Diamonds? You only need a few for a sword and a pick and you're set for ages. In most mod packs, the increased requirements are usually accompanied by increased yields, more ore, or more opportunities to automate or bolster production. Going through a huge dungeon you have to really prep for and getting rewarded with 2 diamonds and 5 iron ingots is pointless. On the other end, putting a nether star in there is even more pointless, because outside of mods, these valuable items are also worthless. What can you really give players that they can't get on their own? You're going to make them slog through a painful combat experience and the reward at the end will probably just be something they could have gotten more of if they'd just spent that same time mining, and more safely. I love the idea of the adventure aspect of Minecraft being fleshed out, but it would have to be built from a fundamental level up. Sticking it in now never seems to work right because the game's basic systems of spawning, combat, and even material scarcity just don't gel with it.
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Sep 18, 2014 05:00
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The game also spent a large part of its buildup to "1.0" in the mistaken delusion that it could be an RPG-like game with NPCs and dragon battles and XP. At that point, at least, I'd have hoped that someone could have sat down and figured out an ideal balance in how to make the world reasonably challenging but rewarding to first survive, then explore, then shape the game around you. I mean, the game already has these moments at the heart of it, but I can't help but feel that the fact that it works at all is just blind luck and could be so much better with some effort (yeah, I know, Minecraft). Hell, even someone to balance the vanilla artwork before all of it (including the new 1.8 stuff) becomes "canonical" through merchandise.
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Sep 18, 2014 05:20
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Vib Rib posted:Except that the base game doesn't support it fundamentally. Yyyyyup, that's been my experience to date. Modding only takes you so far, either the game has to change, or become open to proper total conversions, or I need to kidnap a bunch of programmers tout de suite.
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Sep 18, 2014 05:38
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neurotech posted:Awesome - can you all add me on Steam? done!
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Sep 18, 2014 05:53
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Okan170 posted:The game also spent a large part of its buildup to "1.0" in the mistaken delusion that it could be an RPG-like game with NPCs and dragon battles and XP. Oh, I forgot about repairing. XP also lets you repair your weapons and tools. For some reason.
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Sep 18, 2014 06:20
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Kilroy posted:You could just keep the block size as-is and do the interpolation you're talking about, and it would still look pretty good. And it would keep building simple, which would probably be a nightmare with small blocks like you're suggesting. I actually thought of doing a mod that re-rendered blocks with slopes so if at each intersection there were no other points then that point would be removed meaning that if the top front 2 corners had no other corners at that location it would remove those 2 making a triangular block sloping down. It would be quite simple to do that rendering as well. so you would have pyramid hills. but it would be less blocky, and special blocks would have to render as normal so it would be only Sand, Dirt, rock, cobble, clay, etc - water already does this when it flows.
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Sep 18, 2014 07:20
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IronicDongz posted:I honestly think it'd be cool as hell if ores weren't evenly distributed, so only some places would have specific ores. Think Dwarf Fortress-style geology, except less complicated because it doesn't need to be(although it should also have the nice logical mix of different stones, ideally). Basically that and (much)deeper, more varied caves would do wonders for travel/location mattering in Minecraft. Imagine going on a multiplayer server and finding an abandoned mining town, because people went there for ore and didn't find enough or dug it all up so they needed to move on. That'd be so loving rad! What materials are worth depends very heavily on their scarcity, which is why Minecraft has never actually supported any sort of 'economy' even though servers always stick one on. You're almost never gonna trade materials with someone because you can just get it yourself, so there's no value. But if iron isn't easy to find, then it's far more valuable, and so are places that contain it. Applied Energistics 2 does something like that, to make the chips you need schematics for the imprinter, You find these by finding meteors that have crashed, and in the middle of the meteor is a chest you find these schematics. A friend and I went round the world yesterday finding these, we now have multiple copies of some of them which if i get round to opening a store we could sell on the store... On that note, i want the store to be only able to sell what has been bought so i can have a true player driven economy, I have seen the auction plugins but am wondering if there is a shop like chestshop but that automatically allows any items purchased(from players) to be sold as stock? (Imagine Minecraft Jita 4-4 ....)
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Sep 18, 2014 07:27
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Vib Rib posted:XP alone is such a mess. Nothing about it is very coherent, and its only use is for enchanting, which is super random for no good reason. No, no, you can always repair things (sort of, in the crafting grid). The XP just allows you to preserve the enchants on the tool. There is some kind of consistency there, just... not well-shown... or well-handled.
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Sep 18, 2014 07:29
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TheresaJayne posted:I actually thought of doing a mod that re-rendered blocks with slopes so if at each intersection there were no other points then that point would be removed meaning that if the top front 2 corners had no other corners at that location it would remove those 2 making a triangular block sloping down. 
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Sep 18, 2014 07:35
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Serifina posted:No, no, you can always repair things (sort of, in the crafting grid). The XP just allows you to preserve the enchants on the tool. There is some kind of consistency there, just... not well-shown... or well-handled.
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Sep 18, 2014 07:56
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Yo, you can do all sorts of wacky poo poo with the new command block scripts, like make tiny robots or trophy cases, but can you hide nametags for the whole server yet? All I want to do is make elaborate hide and seek maps but the entire concept of using them relies on holding your shift key for like 15 minutes at a time if you want to actually hide
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Sep 18, 2014 08:49
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You could use a command block to set an infinite/timed duration invisibility effect, and then honor system that players have to wear armor so they aren't fully invisible.
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Sep 18, 2014 09:04
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chrisf posted:You could use a command block to set an infinite/timed duration invisibility effect, and then honor system that players have to wear armor so they aren't fully invisible. Heck, I'm pretty sure you can use command blocks to force users to keep armor on (as in the moment an armor slot is detected as "empty" it replaces it with the appropriate armor, could even go with leather armor and have the replace armor dyed a certain color to show who was trying to cheat on a round  ).
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Sep 18, 2014 10:45
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Vib Rib posted:XP alone is such a mess. Nothing about it is very coherent, and its only use is for enchanting, which is super random for no good reason. I have looked at every conceivable possibility and I've never been able to find an applicable use for experience points, so if I could? Out they go.
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Sep 18, 2014 13:34
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TheresaJayne posted:I actually thought of doing a mod that re-rendered blocks with slopes so if at each intersection there were no other points then that point would be removed meaning that if the top front 2 corners had no other corners at that location it would remove those 2 making a triangular block sloping down. Google voxel marching cubes, this idea was developed back in the 80's.
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Sep 18, 2014 13:56
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TheresaJayne posted:I actually thought of doing a mod that re-rendered blocks with slopes so if at each intersection there were no other points then that point would be removed meaning that if the top front 2 corners had no other corners at that location it would remove those 2 making a triangular block sloping down. There's already a couple mods that do this, but I can't for the life of me remember what they're called.
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Sep 18, 2014 16:03
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xzzy posted:Google voxel marching cubes, this idea was developed back in the 80's. Minecraft 2? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3lOI8McEec
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Sep 18, 2014 16:11
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Waldo P Barnstormer posted:Minecraft 2? Might as well be, as it looks like they're using the same basic method of a noise function choosing biome placement. Deserts right next to snow fields? Sure!
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Sep 18, 2014 16:47
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Hopefully they increase the height of the map at some point too. After seeing the disrepair of Lincoln Building I wanted to build it in Minecraft, and I had to cut like ten floors (among other compromises) because of the height limit    Still missing the stuff around ground floor, but a man gotta eat once in a while.
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Sep 18, 2014 16:50
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Are the 1 block high things on the ground a template used to build or are you going to create a full skyline of buildings in that area? I never saw you earlier stuff, but scrolling through your post history is cool. You do a really good job.
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Sep 18, 2014 17:28
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I'm not going to chime in strongly one way or the other on the whole Microsoft thing, but I do have a bit of a concern with this merger, only because I have a written, but informal, agreement with Mojang on using some of their textures through the customizer, what and how much of the Minecraft name and branding I can use with the site, and any merch/promotional stuff I do, and other behind the scenes sort of stuff of that nature. While this shouldn't affect Painterly unless they get extremely anal about the brand, there's still an outside possibility that Microsoft decides they don't like what I'm doing or whatever, and I'm fairly dubious that they are going to actually acknowledge or honour any of these previous agreements I've had with Mojang - so I remain somewhat cautious about the whole affair moving forward.
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Sep 18, 2014 17:30
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Ihmemies posted:Hopefully they increase the height of the map at some point too. After seeing the disrepair of Lincoln Building I wanted to build it in Minecraft, and I had to cut like ten floors (among other compromises) because of the height limit 
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Sep 18, 2014 17:33
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A fair number of voxel engines use marching cubes for landscape. Landmark does too; you can terraform and chunk out their terrain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjvYIV4B5jg
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Sep 18, 2014 17:40
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stuxracer posted:Are the 1 block high things on the ground a template used to build or are you going to create a full skyline of buildings in that area? Thanks! The 1 block high things on ground are a template I kept tweaking. Sometimes it's pretty hard to get blocks to line up nicely. Usually odd numbers are best in Minecraft. For the three big arches on top I had to have an odd amount of blocks, since even numbered arches don't look that good. I hosed around like two hours trying to get everything to fit and somewhat symmetrical, so I ended up with 3-3-3 windows. With 2 wide windows I could have made the floors 1 block lower and thus fit like 10 floors more. I don't like to do megaprojects alone, since those never get finished  Also they have boring parts like gardening, roads and stuff like that. I simply want to build things! Maybe I could participate to some bigger builds in MP, but Not going to lay blocks one by one like a peasant  Finding a good creative server whose admins want to give me WorldEdit permissions...
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Sep 18, 2014 17:51
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Fuego Fish posted:
Ok, this is a really neat idea and you've inspired me to make "loot crates" for our server to sprinkle around areas we hold events so that people can grab healing items, arrows, etc on the fly. Been looking for a way to keep the momentum going for events instead of having to come to a full stop every 15 min in order for people to reequip themselves or heal up. CS2 is a really cool mod and is what I used for our server's overhaul on tool, weapon and armor crafting.   I've also been working on potion belts that allow people to condense 8 of the same potions into a singular item slot and field bandages that allow players a cheap, stackable, way to giver other players minor healing on the fly. We got events pretty much down to an art at this point, it is just dealing with the necessary downtime that comes with so much stuff going on that we've been trying to figure out. So again, thanks for posting this, great inspiration.
Enzer fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 18:02
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Fuego Fish posted:I have looked at every conceivable possibility and I've never been able to find an applicable use for experience points, so if I could? Out they go. You really don't use enchanted tools? Efficiency V gives almost 4 times the normal digging speed. Previously that was pain in the rear end to repair, but that became much easier in 1.8 thanks to lower costs.
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Sep 18, 2014 18:42
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kas posted:I'm not going to chime in strongly one way or the other on the whole Microsoft thing, but I do have a bit of a concern with this merger, only because I have a written, but informal, agreement with Mojang on using some of their textures through the customizer, what and how much of the Minecraft name and branding I can use with the site, and any merch/promotional stuff I do, and other behind the scenes sort of stuff of that nature. I know you don't need any more work, but has there ever been any requests for alternate Painterly player skins? I love my custom Painterly pack, but am a little sick of the same old Steve.  Or maybe they're already there and I missed them because I'm slow. 
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Sep 18, 2014 18:54
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Ihmemies posted:Thanks! If you build stuff like that I'll totally give you worldedit permissions on my server. It's modded though.
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Sep 18, 2014 18:59
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Enzer posted:Ok, this is a really neat idea and you've inspired me to make "loot crates" for our server to sprinkle around areas we hold events so that people can grab healing items, arrows, etc on the fly. Been looking for a way to keep the momentum going for events instead of having to come to a full stop every 15 min in order for people to reequip themselves or heal up. I recall these blocks from way back, and the post that described them in detail. Where is this server at, I meant to ask then because it sounded like a ton of fun.
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Sep 18, 2014 19:01
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Haha Microsoft just laid off 2100 employees. Chances of Mojang still being employed?
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Sep 18, 2014 19:43
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Harminoff posted:Haha Microsoft just laid off 2100 employees. Chances of Mojang still being employed? They need them because they know the code best, as of right now at least. In the future however, who knows.
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Sep 18, 2014 19:50
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Magmarashi posted:I recall these blocks from way back, and the post that described them in detail. Where is this server at, I meant to ask then because it sounded like a ton of fun. Custom Stuff 2 sounds really great overall and probably what I'd want to do with modding now that I've realized any competency I once had with it is gone. I just wish it were more prevalent and more regularly updated so stuff other people and I might make for it could be more easily distributed.
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Sep 18, 2014 19:51
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Enzer posted:So again, thanks for posting this, great inspiration. What you can do is create a "spawn loot crate" block which does a little countdown and then spawns a new loot crate in the space above it, provided that space is empty air (and not filled with an existing crate, for instance). I've done a similar mechanic for getting reed-like blocks to grow. Set the timer to, say, every 1000 ticks or something, and you can have a system where there's a slow-but-steady constant supply of loot crates. I think there's even a way to only get it to spawn the new block if there's nobody within a certain distance, which would be nice to discourage camping. Assuming you'd want to discourage that, of course. I don't know how your events go. adhuin posted:You really don't use enchanted tools? Efficiency V gives almost 4 times the normal digging speed. I didn't mean from an in-game perspective, I meant from a mechanics perspective. Experience points, as a mechanic, aren't very good. They're what's called a "legacy mechanic", something that gets put into games to appeal to tradition. Mojang considers Minecraft to be a sort-of RPG, so it includes traditional RPG elements. That's why there are skeleton archers and giant spiders, and that's why there's experience points. You could pretty much do away with experience points and rely entirely on resources instead, which is halfway where they've gone with the enchants-need-lapis thing they put in. They just were too tied in to this legacy mechanic thing, which (to be fair) is a trap that any designer can fall into. I should really do a proper design document write-up or something. I'm pretty excited about this "journal" mechanic I've come up with that would replace the need for the wiki and make the whole "discover things for yourself" aspect of Minecraft a lot more plausible.
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Sep 18, 2014 19:52
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Kamrat posted:They need them because they know the code best, as of right now at least. The developers, yes. But what about the employees who work with merchandise? Marketing? Any other department that doesn't have the job of 'making Minecraft'? Unfortunately Microsoft may very well see those jobs as now being redundant and expendable.
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