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Finlander posted:And right now, the stakes are that there are literally thousands being murdered in Ukraine in horrific ways, in an illegal proxy war the likes of which haven't been seen in decades, which will continue unless Putin backs down and Ukraine is given the means to fight off the terrorists that he had sent in. If you honestly think that Ukraine can do either of these by itself, then you are an absolute tool. The world HAS to put pressure on Putin, because if he thinks he can get away with it, he'll take anything he wants and kills anyone he wants. Sanctions are pretty much the only thing the rest of the world can do that won't cause the crisis to spill over into other areas, and quite frankly, the rest of the world doesn't care about Ukraine enough to go to war with Russia over it, or start a proxy war over it. We will continue to put pressure on Putin as we have thus far, and if he re-invades or steps up his support of the terrorists, we'll probably put more economic pressure on him. But the cavalry is not going to be riding in over the status of Luhansk, because having a peaceful and constructive relationship with Russia simply matters more to the rest of the world. It's not moral, it's not "right," but them's the facts - this is realpolitik. quote:And you're a hundred times more the idiot if you think even for a second that Putin won't continue to escalate regardless of US/NATO action. We already know that he has absolutely no care for any losses, be they economical, diplomatic, or human, I don't think we know that at all. In fact, I dispute this. I think Putin's game in Ukraine has lasted up to this point because the potential benefits outweighed the likely costs to him. Now it doesn't look like he's going to gain much more by re-invading or anything, and I doubt he's going to invade any other countries bordering Russia as long as they don't try to join NATO (and aren't already part of NATO obviously). I mean, if you can show me evidence that Putin isn't a rational actor, and will continue to act aggressively regardless of whether or not he's likely to gain anything out of it, I'd be willing to discuss it with you. But right now, it looks to me like he's playing a very rational game.
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Sep 20, 2014 01:24
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Is Putin really a rational actor? I doubt that he is in the long term. (long term = several decades) Also: who does he act for? The Russian people? Or just his friends?
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Sep 20, 2014 01:31
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Is Putin really a rational actor? I doubt that he is in the long term. (long term = several decades) I think he thinks he acts for the Russian people, but he primarily acts for the State as an entity - the Russian government. Everything he does as President seems to be in line with the long pattern of historical Russian rulers. He's definitely in it to enrich his friends, too, but people have complicated motives. I don't think one can say it's just one or the other for anybody, and I don't think one can say it for Putin himself.
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Sep 20, 2014 01:33
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Also: who does he act for? The Russian people? Or just his friends? Doesn't he basically act for what he thinks, Russia should be? Old school nationalism and all that? It's about how Russia, as an entity is seen by the outside powers and other countries, favourably, feared?
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Sep 20, 2014 01:34
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skipThings posted:Doesn't he basically act for what he thinks, Russia should be? Old school nationalism and all that? It's about how Russia, as an entity is seen by the outside powers and other countries, favourably, feared? Tips to reading Marjorian posts: Pretend he's arguing about appeasement of Germany in the 1930s, instead of the appeasement of Russia in the 2010s. Certainly the world will be better off if that pesky League of Nations stopped spooking Germany and just let them have whatever they wanted!
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Sep 20, 2014 01:41
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Those are good points. And it is important to keep in mind that Putin is actually trying to do the best for Russia under his given constraints. Also what he thinks is best for Russia is certainly not 100% identical with what is good for the Russian people. On the other hand... DEATH TO PUTIN! DEATH TO THE SEPARATISTS!
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Sep 20, 2014 01:42
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Nill posted:You want to talk provocation, Russia just bought PBR. Nothing is safe. Finally, a boycott that I'll take part in and actually be hurt by. Colt 45, too! Next you'll tell me they're buying Thunderbird. (As a completely classless broke drinker, I assure you I'm not being sarcastic in the least)
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Sep 20, 2014 01:42
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Cuntpunch posted:Tips to reading Marjorian posts:  The difference between Hitler and Putin is, Hitler was clearly driven by a utopian ideology that called for more conquest than just the Sudetenland. There was plenty of evidence that he wouldn't stop there, and since his economy and military was resurgent, there wasn't much to stop him. In contrast, there is nothing ideological or utopian about Putin, and his economy is not in a particularly great spot. It's unlikely that he will continue to act aggressively, at least in the short-term. It's ridiculous to compare the two cases. Shame on you for making such a stupid post. Lucy Heartfilia posted:Those are good points. And it is important to keep in mind that Putin is actually trying to do the best for Russia under his given constraints. Also what he thinks is best for Russia is certainly not 100% identical with what is good for the Russian people. I do think these two viewpoints aren't mutually exclusive, although I also think taking Putin out would just mean someone worse would replace him. \/\/\/\/\/please do\/\/\/\/\/ Majorian fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 01:45
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Send all hipsters to Russian gulags! Problem solved.Majorian posted:
I honestly wouldn't be to sure about that. putin is human after all. Edit: DEMOCRACY AND RULE OF LAW TO RUSSIA! would be better than DEATH TO PUTIN but even more unrealistic. 
Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 01:45
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Majorian posted:
I'm going to read this now like you're arguing that Germany will stop its expansion as soon as we let them have just a little more I mean it's not like Napoleon is leading them across Europe!
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Sep 20, 2014 01:49
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Cuntpunch posted:I'm going to read this now like you're arguing that Germany will stop its expansion as soon as we let them have just a little more I mean it's not like Napoleon is leading them across Europe! Well, nobody's arguing that we should let them have a little more of anything, but you go ahead and do that hoss.  Lucy Heartfilia posted:I honestly wouldn't be to sure about that. About him being non-ideological? Eh, there's ideology and then there's ideology. I think he has the same level of ideology that Ivan the Terrible did, ie: the world is a better place when Russia is really strong and feared.
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Sep 20, 2014 01:52
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Majorian posted:About him being non-ideological? Eh, there's ideology and then there's ideology. I think he has the same level of ideology that Ivan the Terrible did, ie: the world is a better place when Russia is really strong and feared. The tragedy of the whole situation is that Russia could do so much more for Russians (Russia =/= Russian people ofc.) by improving itself than by bullying and suppressing its neighbors.
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Sep 20, 2014 02:04
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:The tragedy of the whole situation is that Russia could do so much more for Russians (Russia =/= Russian people ofc.) by improving itself than by bullying and suppressing its neighbors. Doubly so, since attempting to chill out and modernize/westernize means they'd stop getting shifty looks from their neighbors!
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Sep 20, 2014 02:08
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:The tragedy of the whole situation is that Russia could do so much more for Russians (Russia =/= Russian people ofc.) by improving itself than by bullying and suppressing its neighbors. Yeah, I think they would be on a much better path if they didn't feel they got so screwed over in the 90's. But they're going to have to feel like they're not in danger of getting overrun by the West if they're going to start taking on better policies. Cuntpunch posted:Doubly so, since attempting to chill out and modernize/westernize means they'd stop getting shifty looks from their neighbors! They tried this.  e: I checked your history in this and the previous thread, and I'm having a hard time finding a post of yours that isn't bleating on about appeasement. If Douglas Feith had a blog, I imagine this is how it would read. Majorian fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 02:08
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Majorian posted:
And largely your posts are "I'm not saying Russia are good guys, but if you think about it they're the victims in all of this" vOv Sorry for caring about the lives of innocents and the concern that if we let Russia run rampant then in 15 years we can see the death toll escalate to fix something that we could smother in its cradle right here and now.
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Sep 20, 2014 02:38
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Cuntpunch posted:And largely your posts are "I'm not saying Russia are good guys, but if you think about it they're the victims in all of this" Nope, I've actually said "Putin and his government are the bad guys" pretty frequently. quote:vOv Sorry for caring about the lives of innocents and the concern that if we let Russia run rampant No one's saying we should do that.
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Sep 20, 2014 02:39
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Nill posted:You want to talk provocation, Russia just bought PBR. Nothing is safe. PBR is pretty popular in China. Quite possibly a good long term investment.
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Sep 20, 2014 03:08
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Nill posted:You want to talk provocation, Russia just bought PBR. Nothing is safe. "And nothing of value was lost."
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Sep 20, 2014 03:10
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Drinking a PBR right now. Some concerns are just beyond geo-pol.
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Sep 20, 2014 03:11
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Berke Negri posted:Drinking a PBR right now. Some concerns are just beyond geo-pol. Apparently those concerns involve a pee-drinking fetish! 
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Sep 20, 2014 03:14
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Hey, I always look for the union label.
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Sep 20, 2014 03:15
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Ugh, if that's what unions do, maybe the Tea Party was right all along!
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Sep 20, 2014 03:17
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"Orthodox Jihad" 
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Sep 20, 2014 04:33
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:"Orthodox Jihad" Is that a confederate flag on the lower left windshield?
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Sep 20, 2014 04:52
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Of Course.
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Sep 20, 2014 04:54
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icantfindaname posted:Is that a confederate flag on the lower left windshield? It's surely just the Novorossija flag
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Sep 20, 2014 04:55
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icantfindaname posted:Is that a confederate flag on the lower left windshield? Didn't you know? Them boys're the Knyazes of Hazzardskaya Oblast.
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Sep 20, 2014 07:14
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Majorian posted:Didn't you know? Them boys're the Knyazes of Hazzardskaya Oblast. The idea that a hundred years from now, Ukrainians around Donetsk would drive around with "The East Will Rise Again!" bumper stickers makes me chuckle. Although to be honest, the more likely outcome will be Western Russians with "Ukraine Will Rise Again!" bumper stickers. Or Poland. poo poo, or Germany the way things have been going.
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Sep 20, 2014 07:26
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Majorian posted:Didn't you know? Them boys're the Knyazes of Hazzardskaya Oblast. The car is named The General Zhukov.
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Sep 20, 2014 07:27
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Majorian posted:Nope, I've actually said "Putin and his government are the bad guys" pretty frequently.
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Sep 20, 2014 07:37
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Majorian posted:Nope, I've actually said "Putin and his government are the bad guys" pretty frequently.
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Sep 20, 2014 07:47
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His thread is dedicated to discussing Russia vs NATO not "things posters in this thread don't agree with". Stop being such a giant baby.
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Sep 20, 2014 07:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I think maybe people are going by the thrust of your statements in general, not cheap "I totally think the people I've been making excuses for or whose decision-making I've been portraying as much less selfish than it probably is are actually bad guys"-statements. The fact that you can't tell the difference between what one thinks is right and how one thinks things are going to play out doesn't show you to be terribly intellectually mature, just FYI. We can continue to discuss this in the Clancychat thread, though, if you'd like. e: Also, I did talk about the fact that a quarter of my family were murdered during the Soviet period, to illustrate that I genuinely do emphathize with those who have been oppressed and killed by the Russian government over the centuries. But if that's a cheap excuse to you or whatever, welp, sorry I guess. Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 07:55
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quote:Washington (AFP) - Six Russian MiG 35 fighter jets entered a US "air defense identification zone" Friday and were intercepted by American and Canadian warplanes near Alaska, two US defense officials said. The weird thing to me is that the MIG 35 isn't suppose to be out of the prototype stage yet, maybe they meant SU-35s or the Russians have kept that project under very tight wraps. Edit: Nevermind, I check another story and they had completely different aircraft, they just goofed. http://news.yahoo.com/us-canadian-jets-intercept-8-russian-aircraft-232846452.html Ardennes fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 08:00
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Majorian posted:The fact that you can't tell the difference between what one thinks is right and how one thinks things are going to play out doesn't show you to be terribly intellectually mature, just FYI. We can continue to discuss this in the Clancychat thread, though, if you'd like. Of course this is made even worse by your interpretation seeming to consistently favor the (official) Russian interpretation, as well as your weird desire to portray Putin as being essentially at the mercy of public opinion in Russia instead of also a driver of it, which makes any risk-reward balancing suspect. Majorian posted:e: Also, I did talk about the fact that a quarter of my family were murdered during the Soviet period, to illustrate that I genuinely do emphathize with those who have been oppressed and killed by the Russian government over the centuries. But if that's a cheap excuse to you or whatever, welp, sorry I guess.
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Sep 20, 2014 08:29
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Being completely unwilling to risk any sort of confrontation when you have the power to improve the lives of millions is a moral position. This is the crux of your argument, and it's where you're the most wrong. The US and NATO getting directly involved in this crisis would provoke a greater response from Russia, which would make most Ukrainian lives a lot worse. The reason why I oppose NATO intervention isn't because I don't empathize with the Ukrainian people; it's because I know that the US' and its allies' capacity to make this situation better is limited. Working indirectly, through sanctions and diplomacy, has a greater chance of saving Ukrainian lives and getting them partially out from under the Russian boot. quote:Sorry, I must have missed that. Doesn't change your arguments though. No, but maybe it will change yours, because I do empathize with the Ukrainian people, more than you know. It's precisely for that reason that I don't want to turn the country into a battleground for a proxy war. e: Let's take this to the other thread, if you want to continue it. Majorian fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 09:13
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Major explosion at the factory in Donetsk, no details at the moment According to some sources, it was a mining equipment plant 
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Sep 20, 2014 11:27
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The third humanitarian aid convoy from Russia to Ukraine has arrived in Donetsk. I hope they have another Matryoshka truck! https://twitter.com/Kosarev_RT/status/513286272342061056 People are posting pictures online concerned they are seeing some sort of chemical agent reaction.   quote:Conflict Reporter @Conflict_Report 47m Weird photobomb. 
HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 12:47
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fatherboxx posted:Major explosion at the factory in Donetsk, no details at the moment What kind of mining equipment makes a fireball that big?
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Sep 20, 2014 13:23
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Majorian posted:This is the crux of your argument, and it's where you're the most wrong. The US and NATO getting directly involved in this crisis would provoke a greater response from Russia, which would make most Ukrainian lives a lot worse. The reason why I oppose NATO intervention isn't because I don't empathize with the Ukrainian people; it's because I know that the US' and its allies' capacity to make this situation better is limited. I've been reading your posts on both threads and despite your occasional statements that "Putin is the bad guy" the actual content of your posts boils down to: «My neighbor slaps his wife and kids every night but we shouldn't say anything because it will only escalate things and he'll start belting them and it will be all your fault because everybody knew that would happen. Furthermore he is right to feel jealous and paranoid, he is an unemployed drunkard and just the other day she was at the grocery store and she was talking with one of the neighbors who dresses very snazzy and has a brand new sportscar. In fact this is all that neighbors fault, he should know better than to talk to another man's wife, what did he expect would happen next? For years now these yuppie neighbors have provoked him, strutting around in their fancy clothes trying to seduce his wife. She says it was just innocent talk but that could easily change at any moment and suddenly he'd find himself a cuckold so even if I don't support him I can totally understand why he is doing it. None of this would have happened if they had been more considerate of his legitimate fears and desires. Oh no, he's a total rear end in a top hat, I've said that many times. It's just that in the end this is all the neighbors fault, they knew how he was, if they didn't want him to beat his wife why do they keep provoking him? And now they are talking about escalating this whole thing further by maybe calling the cops? For shame! Will these provocations know no end?» quote:Working indirectly, through sanctions and diplomacy, has a greater chance of saving Ukrainian lives and getting them partially out from under the Russian boot. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 13:27
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