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Vaan Ratsbane is basically the cameraman of FFXII, and that's just fine.
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Oct 2, 2014 03:47
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Tupperwarez posted:Vaan Ratsbane is basically the cameraman of FFXII, and that's just fine. This is the best analogy I've heard regarding FFXII and Vaan. I feel like once you understand this, the story gets a little more enjoyable. Mind you, I love the hell out of that kind of stuff because I am insane. Or something, anyways since none of my friends like it. 
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Oct 2, 2014 04:02
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A movie where they introduce the cameraman to the audience, give him some basic relevance to what's going on and then dump it in the middle is one weird movie.
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Oct 2, 2014 04:09
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LJN92 posted:A movie where they introduce the cameraman to the audience, give him some basic relevance to what's going on and then dump it in the middle is one weird movie. It's called the Found Footage genre.
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Oct 2, 2014 04:11
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LJN92 posted:A movie where they introduce the cameraman to the audience, give him some basic relevance to what's going on and then dump it in the middle is one weird movie. Welcome to corporate decisions infringing on Matsuno's brilliant vision. The vision being sticking worldbuilding behind chocobo massacres and blurring the line between Star Wars homages and rip-offs.
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Oct 2, 2014 04:17
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Welcome to corporate decisions infringing on Matsuno's brilliant vision. Hey, once you scrape off all the Star Wars BS there's a really cool story in FFXII!
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Oct 2, 2014 04:51
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Welcome to corporate decisions infringing on Matsuno's brilliant vision. Both of them just crib heavily from the Hero's Journey.
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Oct 2, 2014 04:54
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Waffleman_ posted:Both of them just crib heavily from the Hero's Journey. In this day and age, and in fact for the last ten+ years, what doesn't?
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Oct 2, 2014 04:57
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Waffleman_ posted:Both of them just crib heavily from the Hero's Journey. The design on the Judges definitely says that they were trying to evoke Star Wars in specific, but then again this is nothing new in Final Fantasy (remember, the series where they started naming bit characters in every single game after Biggs Darklighter and Wedge Antilles after a point) so it's hardly unique to FFXII. Granted I haven't actually played FFXII so I dunno how deep that particular rabbit hole goes.
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Oct 2, 2014 05:13
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Rita Repulsa posted:It's called the Found Footage genre. But the thing is that they introduce these plot threads like they're supposed to mean something, and then they just poof somewhere along the line. Like Reks. Who remembers Reks? You play as him at the start of the game, you learn he's Vaan's brother and stuff. Then there's this thing where Rasler (anyone remember him? Ashe's lover who got killed in the conflict) kinda looks like him, and Vaan sees the ghost of Rasler at the same time Ashe does. Then you find out the ghost was made by the Occuria and Vaan can't see it now for some reason. It seems like they're building up to something, and maybe you can vaguely interpret the events to mean something, but it just seems like something that leads to nothing significant. I've heard theories that it's because Vaan wasn't out for revenge so the Occuria didn't need him to have a ghost guide but it still seems like a waste of time to me. Even in a Found Footage memory, if they wave something seemingly meaningful in your face, it ought to lead to something significant later on.
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Oct 2, 2014 05:59
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LJN92 posted:But the thing is that they introduce these plot threads like they're supposed to mean something, and then they just poof somewhere along the line. Like Reks. Who remembers Reks? You play as him at the start of the game, you learn he's Vaan's brother and stuff. Then there's this thing where Rasler (anyone remember him? Ashe's lover who got killed in the conflict) kinda looks like him, and Vaan sees the ghost of Rasler at the same time Ashe does. Then you find out the ghost was made by the Occuria and Vaan can't see it now for some reason. It seems like they're building up to something, and maybe you can vaguely interpret the events to mean something, but it just seems like something that leads to nothing significant. I've heard theories that it's because Vaan wasn't out for revenge so the Occuria didn't need him to have a ghost guide but it still seems like a waste of time to me. Eh, the thing with Vaan seeing phantoms isn't really "theory"- it's just that XII is generally more subtle with its storytelling. There's a lot more stuff that goes unsaid, and you just sort of have to pick up. It's actually one of the reasons I like Vaan more than most people- he goes through a realistic character arc and ends up reaching mature character growth much faster than Ashe. FFXII spoilers: The Occuria were looking for someone to use the nethicite to destroy the Empire, and so were guiding candidates who also wanted to destroy the Empire. They were showing a ghost of Rasler to Ashe, and a ghost of Reks to Vaan. But Vaan learns to accept his losses and look for new meaning in his life instead of focusing on his drive for revenge relatively early on, which means he loses his appeal as an agent of destruction for the Occuria. At that point he stops seeing the ghosts. Meanwhile Ashe is going through the same general character growth, but takes much longer to put aside her revenge fantasies- which is why she continues to see the ghosts and is the one the Occuria choose to take the nethicite. The point of the whole thing is that Vaan is acting as a foil to Ashe; we get to compare how his coming to terms with his loss changes his path as compared to Ashe, who hasn't let go.
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Oct 2, 2014 06:33
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Waffleman_ posted:Yeah, I recently reread the Clock Tower 3 LP and there was a fair bit of iffy language, but it's an LP from 2007. I think he chilled out later on, especially with Nier, which he hardly sassed at all. Let's be honest though: Cadia practically did TheDarkId's job for him.
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Oct 2, 2014 06:48
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SirPhoebos posted:Let's be honest though: Cadia practically did TheDarkId's job for him. The challenge was really having the strength of will to withstand Cavia's trolling rather than having the sense of humor to bring the game to life.
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Oct 2, 2014 07:05
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Waffleman_ posted:Both of them just crib heavily from the Hero's Journey. The hero's journey isn't something you crib from, it's just a bunch of folks who want to pretend Star Wars is an object for intellectual discussion going on about storytelling archetypes.
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Oct 2, 2014 07:06
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paragon1 posted:I've always read JRPG characters going "..." as them issuing some kind of non-committal or dismissive grunt. No idea why. I liked it when Grant Morrison used "Hh" and "Tt" by Bruce and Damian Wayne respectively to indicate a dismissive grunt or dismissive tongue cluck.
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Oct 2, 2014 07:57
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I always think of it as an angry/"SO DEEP IN THOUGHT"/speechless silence
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Oct 2, 2014 10:03
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I've never really gotten the hate for the dreaded "..." personally. Now obviously some games abuse it too much, but back in the day there was only so much you could when it came to characters expressing thoughts and emotions because we didn't have voice acting or modern graphics, plus text space was fairly limited. And unlike say, books, there rarely is an outside narrator to tell us that the character looked deep in thought for a moment or grunted quietly to themselves. I think the precise reason why it's so common is exactly this: paragon1 posted:I've always read JRPG characters going "..." as them issuing some kind of non-committal or dismissive grunt. No idea why. simplefish posted:I always think of it as an angry/"SO DEEP IN THOUGHT"/speechless silence Which is to say, because it's very versatile. Depending on the context it can mean any of these things and more so it's a simple and understandable way to communicate them without relying on *describing an emotion* or some other character always pointing out that Dave just sighed quietly. Another example that comes to mind is someone looking displeased, something that's very hard to communicate when you're completely reliant on character dialogue alone. Kanfy fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Oct 2, 2014 |
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Oct 2, 2014 12:46
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We need one update commented entirely in ...
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Oct 2, 2014 13:10
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George posted:The hero's journey isn't something you crib from,
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Oct 2, 2014 15:05
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Xander77 posted:It's literally a list of steps and archetypes. If there's any literary archetype that you can "crib from", it's the hero's journey.
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Oct 2, 2014 15:23
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George posted:The hero's journey isn't something you crib from, it's just a bunch of folks who want to pretend Star Wars is an object for intellectual discussion going on about storytelling archetypes. The Monomyth existed and was identified way before Stars Wars was even thought of.
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Oct 2, 2014 18:51
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Not to mention that The Hero With A Thousand Faces, which is the main work outlining the hero's journey, was published decades before Star Wars was made and that Lucas has openly cited it as an influence when making Star Wars.
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Oct 2, 2014 20:07
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George posted:Hey, once you scrape off all the Star Wars BS there's a really cool story in FFXII! So what if you quit right when the mayor of Cloud City betrays you to the Empire? I still feel like I'm wiping wookiee spooge off my face from that farce.
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Oct 4, 2014 04:22
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Yeah I didn't mean "hero's journey" I meant "person from desert place lives under imperial rule after said empire killed their loved ones and goes on a quest of self-discovery that culminates in the destruction of the empire's superweapon." Beyond that there's visuals like Giruvegan that are more or less lifted from Star Wars. It's crazy.
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Oct 4, 2014 04:32
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Well, this is the series that started off as a DnD ripoff, so I'm not surprised if FFXII did steal a bunch of stuff from Star Wars. It's funny how far this thread has come from talking about Hojo's crotch. Anyway, has anyone done a comparison between the original Japanese script of FFVII compared to the English release? I'm real curious about how much the translator mangled the game.
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Oct 4, 2014 05:23
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FFII did the Star Wars thing first.
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Oct 4, 2014 05:31
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Scalding Coffee posted:FFII did the Star Wars thing first. I'm pretty sure FFI didn't rip off Star Wars though. It just ripped off MechWarrior.
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Oct 4, 2014 06:15
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It ripped off Dungeons and Dragons shamelessly. Like, in an almost illegal sense.
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Oct 4, 2014 06:24
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Which ripped off Tolkien Hell nothing in Star Wars was original either, especially not the cinematography
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Oct 4, 2014 06:30
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Jazzimus Prime posted:I'm pretty sure FFI didn't rip off Star Wars though. It just ripped off MechWarrior.
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Oct 4, 2014 06:41
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Scalding Coffee posted:I am pretty sure as well. I only know of the SNES version. Fister Roboto posted:It ripped off Dungeons and Dragons shamelessly.  It was the NES "version" that ripped off Star Wars and FFI ripped off Wizardry and Ultima.
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Oct 4, 2014 06:55
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Jazzimus Prime posted:I'm pretty sure FFI didn't rip off Star Wars though. It just ripped off MechWarrior. Warmech was awesome  e. I dunno if that's even what you meant but just wanted to say that is all
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Oct 4, 2014 07:00
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FFI literally has Otyughs in it. They are now series staples. Also, Sahuagins and Mindflayers. And spells per day.
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Oct 4, 2014 07:04
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Alkarl posted:This is the best analogy I've heard regarding FFXII and Vaan. I feel like once you understand this, the story gets a little more enjoyable. It's one of my favorites in the series. There are dozens of us!
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Oct 4, 2014 07:32
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There is literally a Beholder in Final Fantasy 1. Its English name was changed, but the appearance is still spot on. Granted yes, it also ripped off Wizardry and Ultima super hard too. It ripped off a lot of things super hard.
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Oct 4, 2014 08:00
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andipossess posted:And spells per day. Uh, D&D cribbed Vancian Casting from Jack Vance's Dying Earth series  
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Oct 4, 2014 08:24
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Also Bahamut comes from D&D, which in turn was lifted from Arabian mythology. Fun fact: Bahamut was described as a giant fish, and on the back of Bahamut rode a bull named Kujata. Also, Bahamut has the same origin as the word behemoth. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 08:28
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MartianAgitator posted:So what if you quit right when the mayor of Cloud City betrays you to the Empire? I still feel like I'm wiping wookiee spooge off my face from that farce. Yo, that betrayal--and the nature of the "Rebels vs. Empire" conflict--is taken in legitimately interesting directions that are more Matsuno than Star Wars.
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Oct 4, 2014 11:02
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simplefish posted:Which ripped off Tolkien
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Oct 4, 2014 11:07
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quakster posted:Everything that exists is a combination of things that came before. Precisely. And even if it wasn't, focus groups would reject it because it wouldn't be a trope that they're familiar with.
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Oct 4, 2014 11:12
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