Our social networks are broken. Here's how to fix them.

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Our social networks are broken. Here's how to fix them.

Caros: May 14, 2008

Eripsa posted:

I'm imagining state capitalism as Godzilla-style monsters rampaging across the earth, and a digital network assemblage arising captain earth style ("with our powers combined") and wrestling the gozilla monster to the ground.

None of you fuckers called him on this while I was typing that giant wall?

It is Captain Planet. Eripsa how can I even take you seriously when you can't even remember the name of a cartoon superhero? :colbert:

quote:

Most of that wasn't written by me. I was actually told to lay easy on the rewrites because "not everyone has a phd".

I suspected as much to be honest because it was mostly legible. I'm actually quite good at determining voice, I just directed my complaints at you since you're in the thread.

Caros fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Oct 20, 2014

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:01

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# ? May 21, 2024 11:46

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Adar posted:

also, didn't digg essentially do 80% of this like ten years ago and partly get brought down by people gaming the system because it was really trivially easy five years ago

but you don't understand, we just need to make a system that's impossible to game. it's so simple only a genius like me could think outside the box like this

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:02

Eripsa: Jan 13, 2002; Proud future citizen of Pitcairn.

Pitcairn is the perfect place for me to set up my utopia!

Obdicut posted:

This is my favorite completely nonsensical part. Apparently the monetization of facebook confuses me about what my neighbors live like. How? Nobody knows, it's a mystery.

The amount of meat I eat in my meals is almost entirely a function of my dining company: in some cases quite a bit, and in some cases not at all. The fact that we eat together means these people have a huge influence on my diet. Significant changes in their diet imply significant changes in mine, and vice versa.

My online friends have some influence on my diet; they will occasionally post meals and recipes that I try myself. But the connection between their eating habits and mine are almost entirely divorced apart from these very few interactions. People clearly like talking about and sharing their meals online, and that same sharing offline results in coordinated eating habits. But online it doesn't have that effect, because my friends meal is shown alongside corporate advertisements and the social signals I'm getting about what food I should be eating is all hosed up.

So a functioning digital community would have eating habits that are easier to influence as a collective this way and that, as influential community members coordinate or conflict in their actions. And in this way that community can become an active political block: working in conjunction to oppose certain business or farming practices say, or whatever else. Again not because the individuals themselves have taken up a cause, but because the population moves as a herd that we all can't ignore.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:03

Eripsa: Jan 13, 2002; Proud future citizen of Pitcairn.

Pitcairn is the perfect place for me to set up my utopia!

Caros posted:

None of you fuckers called him on this while I was typing that giant wall?

It is Captain Planet. Eripsa how can I even take you seriously when you can't even remember the name of a cartoon superhero?

See how eager people are to do work when they care about something?! <3<3

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:04

Caros: May 14, 2008

Eripsa posted:

See how eager people are to do work when they care about something?! <3<3

You are a loving idiot.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:05

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

Caros posted:

You are a loving idiot.

Who, apparently, would slowly starve to death if left alone long enough as he lacked enough external points of reference to determine whether to make a ham sandwich or fry an egg instead.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:07

Kalman: Jan 17, 2010

Eripsa posted:

The amount of meat I eat in my meals is almost entirely a function of my dining company: in some cases quite a bit, and in some cases not at all. The fact that we eat together means these people have a huge influence on my diet. Significant changes in their diet imply significant changes in mine, and vice versa.

My online friends have some influence on my diet; they will occasionally post meals and recipes that I try myself. But the connection between their eating habits and mine are almost entirely divorced apart from these very few interactions. People clearly like talking about and sharing their meals online, and that same sharing offline results in coordinated eating habits. But online it doesn't have that effect, because my friends meal is shown alongside corporate advertisements and the social signals I'm getting about what food I should be eating is all hosed up.

So a functioning digital community would have eating habits that are easier to influence as a collective this way and that, as influential community members coordinate or conflict in their actions. And in this way that community can become an active political block: working in conjunction to oppose certain business or farming practices say, or whatever else. Again not because the individuals themselves have taken up a cause, but because the population moves as a herd that we all can't ignore.

Now tell me how this social network will magically make Thanksgiving dinner appear.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:07

Caros: May 14, 2008

Captain_Maclaine posted:

Who, apparently, would slowly starve to death if left alone long enough as he lacked enough external points of reference to determine whether to make a ham sandwich or fry an egg instead.

On the plus side he now has extra incentive to make a feature complete version of his vaporware, because if he does (he wont) I get banned.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:10

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

Kalman posted:

Now tell me how this social network will magically make Thanksgiving dinner appear.

Creepy-obsessive uncle post incoming!

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:10

Kalman: Jan 17, 2010

Oh, I also missed the "defensive patent" thing.

I cannot wait to see the 101 and 112 rejections Eripsa is going to earn on that. I mean, you can't even settle on a single definition for common words and you think you aren't going to earn continuous indefiniteness rejections for having terms with no clear definition?

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:13

Numb Three Ers: Jul 7, 2007; What do you mean it's pronouced "numbers"?

Eripsa posted:

So, for instance, if my shopping habits (in terms of brand selection or store location, say) were available for everyone in my social network to investigate and compare to their own, then my shopping habits might have more chance to influence that social network overall. So my making better choices about food actually provides feedback to the overall network about what counts as good food. Now maybe they don't imitate my behavior, maybe they react deliberately against it. But either way, we have the basis for organization, because the community structure and its relation to my individual behavior are clear.

In a functioning attention economy, instigating wide-spread social change is really about convincing the influential figures to make those changes, because for the most part the network will follow along. I'm proposing a social network in which it is easy to spot the influential figures on a community-by-community basis because I'm claiming it will assist the organizational development of the network. I'm also arguing that the problem with the existing system is that the don't recognize this social function, and often simply obstruct it from sheer ignorance. Representative democracy is based on the absurd premise that we can simply appoint the person with influence, not recognizing that influence grows organically; "corruption" in government is just the pull of influences outside its appointment. Online social networks make it all but impossible for anyone but advertisers to have any sense of influence or identity. Both of these processes break the link between individual and community that is required for these systems to function.

Are the people who are the best at attaining influence and attention in their community necessarily the people we should listen too? This system is tailor made to promote people who are popular and liked online, not people who know what they are doing. Arguably, the most popular person online is YouTube superstar Pewdiepie. He has over 31 million YouTube subscribers and over 4 million twitter followers. He obtained this "influence" by screaming over footage of video games. Some preliminary research shows that he has raised between 1-2 millions dollars with his "influence". Why hasn't Pewdiepie instigated massive social change? Why hasn't the person with the most "influence" online changed the world for the better? How will your system prevent the flavor of the week from amassing all the power and swaying the group?

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:16

Caros: May 14, 2008

Oh geeze, dumb, dumb Caros. In my list of the first three Social Media... but with Bitcoin! examples that I found I foolishly forgot to include Disapora. It is technically Social Media... but distributed! but I think it still counts all things considered.

I find it hilarious that Eripsa thinks that his idea is something where we have a "unique opportunity" to make it even though similar projects have existed since as early as 2008. Nothing new under the sun and all that.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:19

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Eripsa posted:

I will happy attempt to publish a paper from these assembled writings if you all can suggest a particular, narrow thesis you'd like me to defend and this would be most likely to make it to print. I will post a draft here, submit it for publication, and keep you all in on the editing and drafting process if you'd like.

Hell, if you want to help me to it, I'd give full authorship credits to the thread itself.

Are you loving making GBS threads me? Do you not understand that publication is for your sake, not ours?

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:20

Sharkie: Feb 4, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Eripsa posted:

The amount of meat I eat in my meals is almost entirely a function of my dining company: in some cases quite a bit, and in some cases not at all. The fact that we eat together means these people have a huge influence on my diet. Significant changes in their diet imply significant changes in mine, and vice versa.

My online friends have some influence on my diet; they will occasionally post meals and recipes that I try myself. But the connection between their eating habits and mine are almost entirely divorced apart from these very few interactions. People clearly like talking about and sharing their meals online, and that same sharing offline results in coordinated eating habits. But online it doesn't have that effect, because my friends meal is shown alongside corporate advertisements and the social signals I'm getting about what food I should be eating is all hosed up.

So a functioning digital community would have eating habits that are easier to influence as a collective this way and that, as influential community members coordinate or conflict in their actions. And in this way that community can become an active political block: working in conjunction to oppose certain business or farming practices say, or whatever else. Again not because the individuals themselves have taken up a cause, but because the population moves as a herd that we all can't ignore.

But your "functioning" digital community would also have advertisers. How does that not invalidate everything you say here?

Other thoughts:
-how will you know when a digital community is "functioning"?
-is it pronounced "cinna-rio" like something Ned Flanders would say?
-wouldn't it be trivially easy for Nestle to buy enough AMPs or RIOs or whatever to flood the market?
-How will you keep child pornography off Synereo?

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:21

Caros: May 14, 2008

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Are you loving making GBS threads me? Do you not understand that publication is for your sake, not ours?

You're talking to a person who thinks Bitcoin is something good. Keep that in mind and you'll go far in this thread.

Sharkie posted:

But your "functioning" digital community would also have advertisers. How does that not invalidate everything you say here?

Other thoughts:
-how will you know when a digital community is "functioning"?
-is it pronounced "cinna-rio" like something Ned Flanders would say?
-wouldn't it be trivially easy for Nestle to buy enough AMPs or RIOs or whatever to flood the market?
-How will you keep child pornography off Synereo?

Because he is using a different 'meaning' of the word advertisers. When he says it in the quoted post he means advertisers, but when he says it in his sales pitch he means advertisers. Its like the two different forms of the word want.

You just don't understand the nuances.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:25

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Sharkie posted:

-wouldn't it be trivially easy for Nestle to buy enough AMPs or RIOs or whatever to flood the market?

no, synerio would be designed from the ground up to prevent this from happening. please read the thread

don't ask how, it's just a given ok????

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:28

Caros: May 14, 2008

quote:

Sounds to me like they want us to buy their currency and if we buy enough of it then they can afford to make us a place to use it. :/

This is the top rated post on the reddit thread about Synereo. Even Bitcoiners think that this is vaporware, and they are by definition some of the stupidest people on the loving planet.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:30

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

CheesyDog posted:

Eripsa, I would like you to address my points about quantification of human behavior.

Actually I'd like to see you try to design a psychology or sociology experiment and realize how extremely narrow your focus and assessments have to be in order to measure the behavior in question and not confound it with multiple related behaviors

Don't bother, I kept pushing him about this in the last thread and he never really answered it.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:33

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

*shoots marbles at fishmech*

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:33

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

"If you poindexters can manage to distill a thesis from my fevered ramblings, I might condescend to publish and take credit for it."

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:36

CheesyDog: Jul 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Kalman posted:

Now tell me how this social network will magically make Thanksgiving dinner appear.

You must have missed his Thanksgiving dish preference algorithm from the last thread.

This is not a joke.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:38

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

SedanChair posted:

"If you poindexters can manage to distill a thesis from my fevered ramblings, I might condescend to publish and take credit for it."

"Mental illness in Tier-3 Research Institutions: A Case-Study of One Male Philosophy Undergraduate"

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:38

Eripsa: Jan 13, 2002; Proud future citizen of Pitcairn.

Pitcairn is the perfect place for me to set up my utopia!

Sharkie posted:

But your "functioning" digital community would also have advertisers. How does that not invalidate everything you say here?

Advertisers play by the same rules of community and influence that anyone else does.

quote:

Other thoughts:
-how will you know when a digital community is "functioning"?

A functioning community persists.

quote:

-is it pronounced "cinna-rio" like something Ned Flanders would say?

You can pronounce it however you want. I just say "scenario". I have academic things to say about the latin roots of scenario and the greek roots of synereo but you probably don't care.

quote:

-wouldn't it be trivially easy for Nestle to buy enough AMPs or RIOs or whatever to flood the market?

It'll also be trivially easy to block messages from sources you don't want to see (including advertisers). You set the terms of your communities, and advertisers have the play ball if they want your attention.

quote:

-How will you keep child pornography off Synereo?

You can't keep child porn off a distributed network any more than you can keep ISIS off diaspora.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/21/islamic-state-isis-social-media-diaspora-twitter-clampdown

quote:

Hogan explained that the only way to combat this kind of propaganda was to not share it, not report it and not give those posting it a platform.

�It�s a collective, social responsibility to ensure that violent, potentially contagious content that could reinforce messages that we find problematic does not spread,� said Hogan.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:43

Eripsa: Jan 13, 2002; Proud future citizen of Pitcairn.

Pitcairn is the perfect place for me to set up my utopia!

SedanChair posted:

"If you poindexters can manage to distill a thesis from my fevered ramblings, I might condescend to publish and take credit for it."

I said explicitly that I would not take credit for it, that I would give the byline solely and entirely to the SA D&D forums.

edit: I released my diss into the public domain too if any of y'all want it

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:44

gipskrampf: Oct 31, 2010; Nap Ghost

I have to give it to Eripsa, at long last he tries to empirically test his claims. If Synereo ever gets off the ground, it would be interesting to see if it really does all these wonderfull things he promises. Even if it possible to synthesize all these ideas into a coherent and consistent whole and realize Synereo, I doubt it ever reaches widespread adoption. I don't think the common person is really interested in Bitcoin-like networks, selling their attention and all that jazz. Basically the target audience is just to small to have any significant impact.

gipskrampf fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Oct 20, 2014

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:45

Obdicut: May 15, 2012; "What election?"

Eripsa posted:

The amount of meat I eat in my meals is almost entirely a function of my dining company: in some cases quite a bit, and in some cases not at all. The fact that we eat together means these people have a huge influence on my diet. Significant changes in their diet imply significant changes in mine, and vice versa.

My online friends have some influence on my diet; they will occasionally post meals and recipes that I try myself. But the connection between their eating habits and mine are almost entirely divorced apart from these very few interactions. People clearly like talking about and sharing their meals online, and that same sharing offline results in coordinated eating habits. But online it doesn't have that effect, because my friends meal is shown alongside corporate advertisements and the social signals I'm getting about what food I should be eating is all hosed up.

Yeah, because there's no corporate advertising of food except online, everyone's eating habit sis just purestrain individualism.

quote:

So a functioning digital community would have eating habits that are easier to influence as a collective this way and that, as influential community members coordinate or conflict in their actions.

This already happens: in my digital 'community', I pay attention to the food posts from my friends who are good cooks. The fact that there are also ads doesn't negate this, or even impede this. In fact, it may help this: if I am searching for recipes for chicken, I may get served up a corporate advertisement (oh noes!) telling me where I can go buy chicken. To you, this is somehow bad, but for the exact purposes you're claiming you want--people being influenced by others and following their examples when they want--it would be helpful.

You also make the stupid, magical, nobody-believes it leap from 'people share recipes.... political action!'. This is fantasy, you haven't even attempted your magical handwave for how this would happen, just asserted it. How would sharing recipes lead to political action on farming practices? What is the connection? Why would this happen?

Eripsa posted:

I said explicitly that I would not take credit for it, that I would give the byline solely and entirely to the SA D&D forums.

edit: I released my diss into the public domain too if any of y'all want it

I will literally sue you if you attempt to attach my name to anything you ever do.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:50

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Eripsa posted:

Advertisers play by the same rules of community and influence that anyone else does.

So you're just assuming that the interests of advertisers align with the interests of individuals as well as the community?

Drink more Ovaltine!

Eripsa posted:

I said explicitly that I would not take credit for it, that I would give the byline solely and entirely to the SA D&D forums.

Why do you think you're remotely qualified to talk about incentives when you can't recognize that zero people want this?

Eripsa posted:

It'll also be trivially easy to block messages from sources you don't want to see (including advertisers). You set the terms of your communities, and advertisers have the play ball if they want your attention.

How then will your system function if people can selectively remove themselves from it? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of tracking everything?

Eripsa posted:

You can't keep child porn off a distributed network any more than you can keep ISIS off diaspora.

This is not actually a good thing. In the decade I've been on Facebook, I have never seen child porn. I count this as a positive feature of Facebook.

boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Oct 20, 2014

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:55

Sharkie: Feb 4, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Eripsa posted:

Advertisers play by the same rules of community and influence that anyone else does.

But advertisements are still there. Therefore, "social signals I'm getting about what food I should be eating is all hosed up," unless you're giving people the option to block and ignore ads, in which case, why would advertisers want to use it?

Eripsa posted:

A functioning community persists.

But you've also said:

Eripsa posted:

In a functioning community, the strength of the signal tends to correlate with the urgency of the message. The messages that spread the fastest are usually the biggest emergencies requiring the most immediate attention. The messages that spread the widest tend to be the information people need for coordinating their activities across great distances.

and

Eripsa posted:

Existing social networks don�t function that way at all: our engagement is harvested for advertisers, and whatever feedback it generates is lost in the noise of the greater economy.

So according to one of these definitions, Facebook is a functioning community because it has persisted, but according to that second quote, it's not a functioning community. You should fix that contradiction.

Eripsa posted:

You can't keep child porn off a distributed network any more than you can keep ISIS off diaspora.

So you're admitting that Synereo will carry child pornography. Cool. So wouldn't this dissuade normal people and advertisers from wanting to use it?

edit - Don't you feel any moral qualms about developing a network you claim you know will be used to disseminate child pornography?

quote:

Hogan explained that the only way to combat this kind of propaganda was to not share it, not report it and not give those posting it a platform.

�It�s a collective, social responsibility to ensure that violent, potentially contagious content that could reinforce messages that we find problematic does not spread,� said Hogan.

This is exactly what you're trying to do, btw.

Sharkie fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Oct 20, 2014

# ? Oct 20, 2014 18:57

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

CheesyDog posted:

You must have missed his Thanksgiving dish preference algorithm from the last thread.

This is not a joke.

That was the joke.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:03

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Sharkie posted:

But advertisements are still there. Therefore, "social signals I'm getting about what food I should be eating is all hosed up," unless you're giving people the option to block and ignore ads, in which case, why would advertisers want to use it?

But you've also said:

and

So according to one of these definitions, Facebook is a functioning community because it has persisted, but according to that second quote, it's not a functioning community. You should fix that contradiction.

So you're admitting that Synereo will carry child pornography. Cool. So wouldn't this dissuade normal people and advertisers from wanting to use it?

edit - Don't you feel any moral qualms about developing a network you claim you know will be used to disseminate child pornography?

This is exactly what you're trying to do, btw.

Advertisements don't have as much influence upon you as individuals with genuine social capital.

Eripsa, how will you keep nazis off your social network, and why would anyone normal want to use your nazi network?

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:03

Gerund: Sep 12, 2007; He push a man

Eripsa posted:

No, actually, my present is pretty good. I have regular employment for the first time in two years, I completed a degree that's been hanging around my neck for a decade, and people want to collaborate on me with projects I care about.

I'm talking about things generally. I'm particularly worried about the most inhumane of problems, climate change. I think we need a serious restructuring of our modes of government and of production if we're going to tackle the problem, and we need it faaaaaast because poo poo's going to get real bad real soon.

I'm imagining state capitalism as Godzilla-style monsters rampaging across the earth, and a digital network assemblage arising captain earth style ("with our powers combined") and wrestling the gozilla monster to the ground.

You all might think I'm silly for trying to imagine monsters, but the godzilla monster is real and it's tearing poo poo up outside and I don't see anything else around that can stand up to it. I also see a lot of tech enthusiasts talking seriously about unfriendly AI as if it's a real threat to humanity, and virtually no one telling the positive story about how all these networked technologies we've been building for the last 20 years hook up into something that looks like a controlled system again.

My crazy belief is this: I think we're going through Internet Puberty right now. It's our awkward phase where we're tripping over our own feet and we look weird and we can't do anything right. But in a few years (if we survive) we'll be mature enough to actually handle some real responsibilities. Like ourselves.

The crux of your metaphor is that you believe that the Internet is somehow not a product and inherent part of a capitalist system. Wrestling the capitalist system to the ground will hurt some people involved with the internet, and so you'll have a large and concerned minority working against you, constantly. No amount of perverse incentives is going to get around people wanting to continue using their high-coltan products to use the internet.

So therefore, a question: how exactly does one develop a 7 billion member middle-class internet-cyborg fantasy-universe without depleting the planet of its resources?

(the answer is that you're a milquetoast singularian who doesn't understand scale, like most sci-fi writers)

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:08

Eripsa: Jan 13, 2002; Proud future citizen of Pitcairn.

Pitcairn is the perfect place for me to set up my utopia!

gipskrampf posted:

I have to give it to Eripsa, at long last he tries to empirically test his claims. If Synereo ever gets off the ground, it would be interesting to see if it really does all these wonderfull things he promises. Even if it possible to synthesize all these ideas into a coherent and consistent whole and realize Synereo, I doubt it ever reaches widespread adoption. I don't think the common person is really interested in Bitcoin-like networks, selling their attention and all that jazz. Basically the target audience is just to small to have any significant impact.

It's very likely that you are right. I have no interest in bitcoins myself and I'm very distrustful of the community. But like it or not these are also the communities thinking about infrastructural technologies at the level of abstraction that I'm working at, so it is easiest to frame the project in the terms these communities trade in. Also, there's a lot more people looking to others for answers and ideas, so there's also a better chance to be heard. I'm pretty sure Kane and his partners aren't trying to swindle anyone; I could be wrong and I'd be disappointed if that were the case. I hope I'm not and see no reason to think they are doing anything but acting on what they think is an idea with potential.

I know I'm not trying to swindle anyone. I might have a bad reputation here, but I've never asked anyone for anything other than marbles and words. Maybe I've given nothing apart from carpal tunnel to myself in return. I'm okay with that. Today's a good day to die.

But in case I live tomorrow, I'd like for it to be better. Some references have already come up in the thread, if others know of projects with similar comprehension and focus (especially outside science fiction) I'd find it very useful.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:09

Kalman: Jan 17, 2010

We don't think you're trying to swindle anyone, Eripsa.

Unfortunately, that just makes it sadder.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:11

Who What Now: Sep 10, 2006; by Azathoth

Obdicut posted:

I will literally sue you if you attempt to attach my name to anything you ever do.

Same here, we can make it a Class Action!

Eripsa, you seemed to have completely missed the point of people telling you to submit an article to a journal. We don't want to select a topic for you, we don't want to help you edit it, and we sure as poo poo don't want any credit* because we don't want you to get published. We want you to fail, because in failing you will have what you came here looking for, impartial critique of your work.

But you don't want that because you're afraid, terrified even, of what they'll send back. That's why you won't do it, not because you don't want recognition (you loving liar, you) or because you don't want to pad you CV. It's all because you don't want someone to pull your stupid bullshit apart in a way that you can't weasel out or convince yourself that they're the wrong ones. Actually being accountable for what you say scares you to death, and it shows.

On another, lighter note, I'll :toxx:

myself that if Synero or whatever the gently caress it's called can get 1 million distinct and active users and keep them for an entire year I will buy you 100 AMPs at full market share.

*can you even credit a loving subforum? How would anyone check that? There's a loving paywall for chrissakes.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:12

Caros: May 14, 2008

Eripsa posted:

It's very likely that you are right. I have no interest in bitcoins myself and I'm very distrustful of the community. But like it or not these are also the communities thinking about infrastructural technologies at the level of abstraction that I'm working at, so it is easiest to frame the project in the terms these communities trade in. Also, there's a lot more people looking to others for answers and ideas, so there's also a better chance to be heard. I'm pretty sure Kane and his partners aren't trying to swindle anyone; I could be wrong and I'd be disappointed if that were the case. I hope I'm not and see no reason to think they are doing anything but acting on what they think is an idea with potential.

I know I'm not trying to swindle anyone. I might have a bad reputation here, but I've never asked anyone for anything other than marbles and words. Maybe I've given nothing apart from carpal tunnel to myself in return. I'm okay with that. Today's a good day to die.

But in case I live tomorrow, I'd like for it to be better. Some references have already come up in the thread, if others know of projects with similar comprehension and focus (especially outside science fiction) I'd find it very useful.

Wow... Really Eripsa? You are just the biggest loving liar in the world, you know that?

quote:

1) AMPs can be bought during an initial crowdfunding phase which will fund the development of Synereo and its deployment. We are in touch with various escrow service providers to provide our backers with a smooth and secure solution. Sign up on Synereo.com to receive updates!

Unless you expect that people are going to be paying for AMPs with marbles and words, you are asking for money. I don't care if you didn't write this, your name is on the staff list at the bottom, and if you happen to be successful (which you won't) you will benefit as a result of asking for that money.

But please, go ahead and tell me how being on the team developing a this garbage somehow doesn't mean that you are asking for money even though they are. Or how you totally don't get any benefits out of it (other than prestige, and accomplishing your personal goals) so it totally doesn't count.

Or wait, maybe you mean that you've never asked anyone here for anything other than marbles? I can't really loving tell because you are awful at communicating points.

Caros fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Oct 20, 2014

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:16

CheesyDog: Jul 4, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Pesmerga posted:

Don't bother, I kept pushing him about this in the last thread and he never really answered it.

Maybe he can get his "psychologist girlfriend" to explain some of it to him.

Let me give you an example of how hard it is to quantify and research human behavior, Eripsa. My last research project involved looking at a two related but still distinct behaviors that were potential predictors of academic performance, so it was essentially dealing with quantification of two behaviors and their relationship to a quantifiable third behavior.

Precisely defining the three behaviors under examination, addressing areas of ambiguity with those definitions, linking those definitions to prior research that justified those definitions, and addressing why alternative definitions were not selected ended up at 45 pages, before getting into the design, results, and application portion of the project.

You can't just slap badges on arbitrary poo poo and call it quantifying behavior.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:24

Eripsa: Jan 13, 2002; Proud future citizen of Pitcairn.

Pitcairn is the perfect place for me to set up my utopia!

Sharkie posted:

So according to one of these definitions, Facebook is a functioning community because it has persisted, but according to that second quote, it's not a functioning community. You should fix that contradiction.

Gerund posted:

The crux of your metaphor is that you believe that the Internet is somehow not a product and inherent part of a capitalist system.

Yes! Yes! Brilliant! You are following along!

This is precisely the issue: facebook is functioning as an organ of (state) capitalism, organizing us according to the needs and rhythms and incentives of state capitalism: namely, that we are standardized homogeneous consumers that can be shoveled slop at industrial scales.

This is not good for people, it's also not good for the planet, and it's also fascism. But I'm being descriptive and explaining how it also disrupts our social organizing algorithms. Hence: it is nonfunctional.

Our organizing algorithms use the distribution of activity we observe from our social environment to decide what to do. eviltastic nailed this on his page 1 summary, which is really the most interesting part of the idea and the only that has received the least attention in these threads.

eviltastic posted:

3(d) - "We have no other tools for judging the success of our activity online except in terms of raw audience size."
3(e) - This is because the general user lacks power to do anything, and so must hope for catching the attention of someone with it.
3(f) - That's a poor way to handle local or non-immediate problems.
3(g) - The distribution of attention within a social network is used by members to determine their own participation.
3(h) - Users want the social network to be changed by their participation in a way that reflects the content generated by that participation.
3(i) - That doesn't currently happen, because the social networks are structured to generate content for entities that aren't participating community members (advertisers).

So: Facebook persists as a functional arm of capitalism, but not because we've constructed it to persist as such. Facebook rises and falls with that capitalist system, and not with our labor. Nevertheless it is only our labor that has constructed it; the problem is not that we've done anything wrong (sharing cat memes is fine!). The problem is that the results of that labor aren't made available for social organization. Obdicut, who has been arguing all thread in the dualism of real and digital life, claims that sharing food with friends on instagram is can influence behavior. This is true, but that influence is radically different from the influence that comes from preparing and eating meals together. You can share food pictures online, but eating with a person daily will change your habits-- again, not always to bring them into alignment, but always in response to the other.

So I'm saying: when we share pictures of our food, we're expecting the result of this sharing to approximate the sharing that happens when we eat together. That real-world sharing has huge political consequences; what we eat has a huge impact on the economy, and if we are all doing it in coordination it could literally move mountains. And we're doing the best we can to do the same thing online, but that interaction gets broken up and commodified by the social network, not to communicate the most relevant organizing information but instead to maximize profit revenue.

You know, maybe the profit motive was okay for managing certain kinds of agricultural and industrial systems. But when we're talking about managing the basic social infrastructure it's reasonable to step back and rethinking our approach. Because Facebook is persistent and huge and amazing, but it's not what we would have built for ourselves, and I'm pretty sure we can do a gently caress of a lot better if we just had the proper tools.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:28

Caros: May 14, 2008

CheesyDog posted:

Maybe he can get his "psychologist girlfriend" to explain some of it to him.

Let me give you an example of how hard it is to quantify and research human behavior, Eripsa. My last research project involved looking at a two related but still distinct behaviors that were potential predictors of academic performance, so it was essentially dealing with quantification of two behaviors and their relationship to a quantifiable third behavior.

Precisely defining the three behaviors under examination, addressing areas of ambiguity with those definitions, linking those definitions to prior research that justified those definitions, and addressing why alternative definitions were not selected ended up at 45 pages, before getting into the design, results, and application portion of the project.

You can't just slap badges on arbitrary poo poo and call it quantifying behavior.

I ought to actually ask my sister to read these threads and give me a professional opinion. I'm sure it'd be incredibly enlightening.

quote:

You can't keep child porn off a distributed network any more than you can keep ISIS off diaspora.

I just want to go on the record and point out that this is loving repugnant and you should be ashamed of yourself.

You want to talk advantages that centralization has? For one thing they can keep criminal acts off their sites so that I don't run the risk of seeing child porn, or of accidentally storing child porn on my computer because something something blockchain!

Here, I'm going to throw a third question in with my other two since I haven't asked them in a while:

Do you accept the possibility that your assumption that people want a home out of Social Networking could be wrong?
Do you accept the possibility that you could be wrong that if you gave people a home, they would inevitably take political action?
Does it concern you that by your own admission, Synereo will host Child Pornography?

And just so we're clear, Unless you answer I'm pretty sure everyone in the thread is going to be right there with me in assuming that your answer to all three is No.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:29

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# ? May 21, 2024 11:46

Eripsa: Jan 13, 2002; Proud future citizen of Pitcairn.

Pitcairn is the perfect place for me to set up my utopia!

CheesyDog posted:

Maybe he can get his "psychologist girlfriend" to explain some of it to him.

Let me give you an example of how hard it is to quantify and research human behavior, Eripsa. My last research project involved looking at a two related but still distinct behaviors that were potential predictors of academic performance, so it was essentially dealing with quantification of two behaviors and their relationship to a quantifiable third behavior.

Precisely defining the three behaviors under examination, addressing areas of ambiguity with those definitions, linking those definitions to prior research that justified those definitions, and addressing why alternative definitions were not selected ended up at 45 pages, before getting into the design, results, and application portion of the project.

You can't just slap badges on arbitrary poo poo and call it quantifying behavior.

Yes of course. If I were suggesting any particular ways of quantifying human behavior I'd have a lot more work to do.

But I'm giving a social network design philosophy at the level of abstract theory and social criticism. Surely you see how this kind of intellectual labor (again: community organizing and its theories) must occur alongside the lab work and developments in other fields?

Surely philosophy ("how things in the broadest possible sense of the term hang together in the broadest possible sense of the term") still has a place in the discourse?

# ? Oct 20, 2014 19:33

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Our social networks are broken. Here's how to fix them.

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