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aejix posted:This is much harder than it sounds. At the very least, there is a massive amount of, if not directly contradictory, then very confusing information out there. 10 years ago if you ate eggs a couple times a week, your loving DOCTOR would tell you that you're going to have a heart attack by age 12 (minor exaggeration, you get my point). Nowadays it's just 'eat all the eggs. Maybe not a dozen per day but enjoy those drat tasty eggs'. Fat was just 'fat'. Now there's simple fats, complicated fat, good fats, bad fats, trans fats, good cholesterol, bad cholesterol, on and on the list goes. Every 5-10 years the whole concept of 'a healthy diet' seems to have had huge changes, if not complete re-writes. Paleo poo poo, the food pyramid, Atkins, activated almonds, free radicals in the body.. who the gently caress knows what you're supposed to concentrate on eating/avoiding anymore? Yeah pretty much. This thread has seen multi page de-rails about what constitutes healthy, with people trying to simplify it to energy in energy out, and others getting mad about that, and the original thermodynamics supporters getting mad in response, etc etc. The whole culture of being healthy is full of jargon, bullshit, and dogwhistle fat shaming. My solution, Amethyst, is too go back to the original issue being discussed and allow gastric banding surgery to be an option in public health care.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:14
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Les Affaires posted:Some formula based on the amount of sugar/salt/calories per gram would do it. Taxing calories is a stupid idea, taxation would only be passed on to the consumer and as high tax on cigarettes and alcohol shows, does nothing to deter them from consuming such items. It would be basically just a poor tax, because poor people tend to only be able to afford items that are high in calories/sugar/fat because that's what is cheap. Decent and healthy food is more expensive to buy which is something we should address first. Sugar content in food is something else that needs to be addressed, but not by taxation.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:17
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I agree that gastric banding is essential as a hugely effective treatment of obesity, but I also think a preventative approach in tandem is a good idea.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:17
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CrazyTolradi posted:Taxing calories is a stupid idea, taxation would only be passed on to the consumer and as high tax on cigarettes and alcohol shows, does nothing to deter them from consuming such items. [citation needed]
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Nov 3, 2014 03:18
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The problem with surgery is it treats the symptoms. If you're eating badly you're still probably going to have long term issues that come from that even though you've dodged the ones related to excess weight. Eating health can be quick and easy but it takes time and effort learning how to do it. There's also a shifty couple of weeks where your body has withdrawal symptoms from all the sugar. Emphasis should be education in schools.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:23
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Nibbles! posted:The problem with surgery is it treats the symptoms. If you're eating badly you're still probably going to have long term issues that come from that even though you've dodged the ones related to excess weight. Don't start this again. An actual doctor came in last time and said you're wrong.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:26
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I remember at primary school in the 80s we had "Charlie the Fresh Fruit Koala", but I guess with the cut backs on education, especially public schools, that program is dead in the water
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Nov 3, 2014 03:26
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You Am I posted:I remember at primary school in the 80s we had "Charlie the Fresh Fruit Koala", but I guess with the cut backs on education, especially public schools, that program is dead in the water Those programs are still running and in fact have likely been expanded since you left school.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:27
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You Am I posted:I remember at primary school in the 80s we had "Charlie the Fresh Fruit Koala", but I guess with the cut backs on education, especially public schools, that program is dead in the water I don't see how charlie the fresh fruit koala can compete with the freddo caramel koala...
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Nov 3, 2014 03:29
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Nibbles! posted:The problem with surgery is it treats the symptoms. If you're eating badly you're still probably going to have long term issues that come from that even though you've dodged the ones related to excess weight. As Amethyst pointed out, this is completely bullshit. Medical studies show gastric banding works, and diet and exercise only works in like 5% of cases. This idea of 'JUST EAT HEALTHY, FATTIES' serves no purpose except to make fat people feel bad about themselves.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:29
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Don't worry, when Tony Abbott places McDonalds in charge running schools and developing the national curriculum, I'm sure that sure that children will receive an excellent education on healthy eating and nutrition.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:30
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aejix posted:This is much harder than it sounds. At the very least, there is a massive amount of, if not directly contradictory, then very confusing information out there. 10 years ago if you ate eggs a couple times a week, your loving DOCTOR would tell you that you're going to have a heart attack by age 12 (minor exaggeration, you get my point). Nowadays it's just 'eat all the eggs. Maybe not a dozen per day but enjoy those drat tasty eggs'. Fat was just 'fat'. Now there's simple fats, complicated fat, good fats, bad fats, trans fats, good cholesterol, bad cholesterol, on and on the list goes. Every 5-10 years the whole concept of 'a healthy diet' seems to have had huge changes, if not complete re-writes. Paleo poo poo, the food pyramid, Atkins, activated almonds, free radicals in the body.. who the gently caress knows what you're supposed to concentrate on eating/avoiding anymore? Almost all of these are published by vested interests - who would've thought that a Winegrowers Australia study would find that drinking 2 glasses of red a night is great for your health!
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Nov 3, 2014 03:33
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Excise rates for alcohol in Australia. Holy poo poo this is confusing. Simple-ish question: What would a bottle of my favorite beer, Lolita by Goose Island, cost in Australia? What would it cost to produce a small-batch beer using old wine casks purchased from your wine industry to age the beer for 6 to 24 months in? E: webmeister posted:Almost all of these are published by vested interests - who would've thought that a Winegrowers Australia study would find that drinking 2 glasses of red a night is great for your health! My understanding is that the stress reduction that occurs with limited alcohol consumption adds more to an individual's longevity, with a certain limit reached based upon how stressed you are and how many drinks you have a day. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 03:37
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Nov 3, 2014 03:38
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Splode posted:As Amethyst pointed out, this is completely bullshit. Medical studies show gastric banding works, and diet and exercise only works in like 5% of cases. This idea of 'JUST EAT HEALTHY, FATTIES' serves no purpose except to make fat people feel bad about themselves. Didn't say it didn't work, saying it doesn't address the causes. Bad diet is responsible for a slew of problems that isn't dependent on your weight.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:38
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Nibbles! posted:Didn't say it didn't work, saying it doesn't address the causes. Bad diet is responsible for a slew of problems that isn't dependent on your weight. It's lucky that getting weight loss surgery also includes consultation with a dietitian and psychological assessment(/therapy as needed) then, isn't it?
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Nov 3, 2014 03:43
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UrbanLabyrinth posted:It's lucky that getting weight loss surgery also includes consultation with a dietitian and psychological assessment(/therapy as needed) then, isn't it? Yes the government is well known for providing adequate psychological care under the MBS.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:47
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CrazyTolradi posted:Taxing calories is a stupid idea, taxation would only be passed on to the consumer and as high tax on cigarettes and alcohol shows, does nothing to deter them from consuming such items. It would be basically just a poor tax, because poor people tend to only be able to afford items that are high in calories/sugar/fat because that's what is cheap. Decent and healthy food is more expensive to buy which is something we should address first. Sugar content in food is something else that needs to be addressed, but not by taxation. Cigarette usage in Perth has almost been eliminated. Yes, applying taxation to those items would work, because it both encourages the consumer to find cheaper options, and it also encourages the producer to produce items that attract less tax.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:49
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Nibbles! posted:Didn't say it didn't work, saying it doesn't address the causes. Bad diet is responsible for a slew of problems that isn't dependent on your weight. I made a small effort-post in last month's thread which I'll just summarize here. I'm very sympathetic to the point you're making about the psychological determinants of overeating and you're right in pointing out that the surgeries don't address these things. It's important to point out, though, that the psychological determinants interface with the body and GIT in a well-understood way and the actual chemicals that signal hunger (not just, hunger-hunger but also hunger triggered psychosomatically) are actually released by many of the same stomach areas that are destroyed through the surgery. Put simply, some of these surgeries actually change the biochemical feedback loop such that food is actually rendered incapable of meeting the same psychological drives. Obviously it's much more complex than that and obviously it's not going to completely override all drive to eat but there is pretty near universal consensus among the medical literature that gastric sleeve surgeries in particular eliminate many/most hunger cravings regardless of whether they're precipitated by a physical or psychological drive. I think this point isn't well-understood among the lay-public... I understand that bad diet is a complex interaction of environment, social, psychological factors in addition to physiological but it does have a relatively specific interface with a very specific endocrine feature of the gut and it is this physiological mechanism that is tinkered with (in modern surgeries, at least... lap bands do nothing to address this mechanism but they're rapidly coming out of favour).
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Nov 3, 2014 03:50
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To use another example, let's say instead of taxing junk food, we pay McDonalds and the other big fast food companies to find ways to reduce obesity. Then we can get those same companies to bid against each other using projects to stop obesity and the ones with the best project get awarded funding.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:54
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Les Affaires posted:Cigarette usage in Perth has almost been eliminated. The last 11 smokers in Perth must follow me around then, because every loving time I go to either Royal Perth Hospital or Sir Charles Gardiner Hospital, I have to walk through a crowd of people smoking. Don't stand outside the advanced lung disease clinic and loving smoke.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:57
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Les Affaires posted:To use another example, let's say instead of taxing junk food, we pay McDonalds and the other big fast food companies to find ways to reduce obesity. Then we can get those same companies to bid against each other using projects to stop obesity and the ones with the best project get awarded funding. I remember reading about a city-run farmers market in the US that gave bonus "points" for money spent in the market that could only be redeemed on vegetables and healthy food. Obviously it's not a perfect solution but the authors of the article pointed out that the scheme had people walking out with big bags of fresh vegetables that they wouldn't have otherwise left with. Apparently the consumption of vegetables was higher than during a period when they just massively reduced the price because people saw they were getting a $3.99 head of broccoli for free and perceived greater value than just a head of broccoli that cost $0.99. Clearly there are problems with that but I do picture a solution that attempted to encourage healthy habits through reward rather than punitively via tax increases and the like. **edit** why isn't fresh produce heavily discounted? I understand that unhealthy, calorie dense foods are easy to prepare and are more attractive to busy people but discount the cost of a salad of $0.25 and I bet people would find the time to make one if it means they're not spending $3.00 on a sausage roll or pie... Serrath fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 03:59
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GoldStandardConure posted:The last 11 smokers in Perth must follow me around then, because every loving time I go to either Royal Perth Hospital or Sir Charles Gardiner Hospital, I have to walk through a crowd of people smoking. Y-yeah... hanging out at a hospital is bound to give you a different view of life.
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Nov 3, 2014 03:59
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Les Affaires posted:To use another example, let's say instead of taxing junk food, we pay McDonalds and the other big fast food companies to find ways to reduce obesity. Then we can get those same companies to bid against each other using projects to stop obesity and the ones with the best project get awarded funding. This is a direct action joke, right? Serrath posted:**edit** why isn't fresh produce heavily discounted? I understand that unhealthy, calorie dense foods are easy to prepare and are more attractive to busy people but discount the cost of a salad of $0.25 and I bet people would find the time to make one if it means they're not spending $3.00 on a sausage roll or pie... Yeah, this seems like a better idea than taxing junk food. It often costs me less or the same amount to eat out than it does to make something with a bunch of vegetables in it, so there's a lot of incentive to just go "oh gently caress it" and order something vaguely unhealthy for dinner. No please don't tell me about your $2 chilli recipe. Splode fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 04:08
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Police have spoken to a man who witnesses said taxied his plane down the main street of a Pilbara town to get to the pub. Officers were called to the Newman Hotel about 2:00pm on Friday. Witnesses told police the light aircraft, with its propeller running, had taxied from one end of town to the other. The aircraft did not have wings. Newman Sergeant Mark Garner said the incident was being treated very seriously because there were children walking home from school at the time. He said police had CCTV footage and were speaking with the plane's owner, who is aged 37. "When we arrived we found a Beechcraft two seater prop-driven plane parked in one of the bays," Sergeant Garner said. "There was no-one there. The wings were off the plane. "We made some inquires with some of the people in the pub and witnesses nearby and ended up speaking to a 37-year-old male." He said the fact that the plane did not have a steering wheel made the situation very dangerous, and the propeller could also have caused significant damage. "The danger obviously taxiing a prop plane down Newman Drive, bearing in mind that kids have just come out of school," he said. "It's a busy Friday afternoon. I know it's Newman but we do get a fair bit of traffic." Witnesses have been asked to contact police.
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Nov 3, 2014 04:11
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Splode posted:This is a direct action joke, right? The problem with making fruit and vege cheaper is when restaurants and other vendors take advantage of the subsidy to reduce their cost of ingredients. You want those benefits to go directly to people eating fruit by itself or using it domestically, not necessarily to the vendors. Taxing the vendors puts the choice directly in the hands of consumers. Those taxes should then go towards an increase in welfare subsidies to offset the pain.
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Nov 3, 2014 04:16
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Serrath posted:I made a small effort-post in last month's thread which I'll just summarize here. I'm very sympathetic to the point you're making about the psychological determinants of overeating and you're right in pointing out that the surgeries don't address these things. It's important to point out, though, that the psychological determinants interface with the body and GIT in a well-understood way and the actual chemicals that signal hunger (not just, hunger-hunger but also hunger triggered psychosomatically) are actually released by many of the same stomach areas that are destroyed through the surgery. Put simply, some of these surgeries actually change the biochemical feedback loop such that food is actually rendered incapable of meeting the same psychological drives. I'm not against surgery or saying that it doesn't work. It clearly works. It's the idea that a) surgery is the one stop that fixes everything and b) that it's impossible to achieve the outcome any other way. Plus the other issues that can crop up. From my understanding you're supposed to be even more diet concious after gastric as with those bits of your stomach gone you don't absorb calories and nutrients as well any more? Serrath posted:I understand that unhealthy, calorie dense foods are easy to prepare and are more attractive to busy people but discount the cost of a salad of $0.25 and I bet people would find the time to make one if it means they're not spending $3.00 on a sausage roll or pie... I think it's more that people simply don't know how to cook. It's far cheaper to buy chicken breast per kg then the sausage roll, but then you're left with preparing it and making it taste good.
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Nov 3, 2014 04:21
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Les Affaires posted:Cigarette usage in Perth has almost been eliminated. Evidence? Seriously, I'm not joking, you can't make that huge a claim and not have anything to back that up. You might think it's been eliminated, you might not know anyone who smokes, but you can bet your backside cigarette sales are still a thing in Perth. Cigarettes are treated as loving gold by supermarket chains, because it's an item they know will keep selling. EDIT: And as to impact in cigarette sales, taxation did nothing. Plain packaging and not being able to display cigarette/tobacco goods has done far more to impact on sales than taxation ever did. Why do you think big tobacco cried blue murder when Labor passed plain packaging and fought it as far as they possible could (and still are, I think?). Also, E-cigs have become a big thing and obviously are taking cigarette market share. CrazyTolradi fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 04:23
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https://www.google.com.au/search?q=tobacco+price+smoking+rates http://www.nhpa.gov.au/internet/nhp...ctober_2013.pdf If anyone actually cares about smoking rates by city. open24hours fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Nov 3, 2014 |
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Nov 3, 2014 04:26
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CrazyTolradi posted:Evidence? Seriously, I'm not joking, you can't make that huge a claim and not have anything to back that up. You might think it's been eliminated, you might not know anyone who smokes, but you can bet your backside cigarette sales are still a thing in Perth. Cigarettes are treated as loving gold by supermarket chains, because it's an item they know will keep selling. I don't mind backing away from "huge claims" but all I was trying to point to was the significant reduction in smoking rates I've seen in Perth. What's more curious to me is the sense I get of your hatred for taxation as a macro-economic tool. Why?
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Nov 3, 2014 04:32
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CrazyTolradi posted:EDIT: And as to impact in cigarette sales, taxation did nothing. Plain packaging and not being able to display cigarette/tobacco goods has done far more to impact on sales than taxation ever did. Why do you think big tobacco cried blue murder when Labor passed plain packaging and fought it as far as they possible could (and still are, I think?). Also, E-cigs have become a big thing and obviously are taking cigarette market share. This is just plain wrong. You see declines in smoking rates as the cost goes up even in countries without plan packaging.
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Nov 3, 2014 04:32
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Les Affaires posted:I don't mind backing away from "huge claims" but all I was trying to point to was the significant reduction in smoking rates I've seen in Perth. Anecdotes aren't data, though. u got a ciggy butt brain m8
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Nov 3, 2014 04:34
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Thanks for the link Open, it shows Perth's rates at 16% for both metro areas, and 12% for Fremantle - significantly less than the national average. A lot of what has contributed to reduced smoking are tighter regulations in public spaces and businesses, and a culture more sensitive to smoking. Again, anecdotes, but the people I know who used to smoke complained of being ostracised as the places they could go to do so become far more limited, and more isolated. Handwaving taxation away as a contributor to the fall in smoking rates is not a good idea though, because in the end the decision to stop smoking (and it is a decision) is often motivated by a confluence of factors, cost being one of them. So transfer that experience across to obesity - how do we enact a similar experience when fighting the fight for peoples health? With the smoking population, it was easy to just say "do not smoke in this public area" because it affected other people. Unfortunately eating junk food doesn't do that, or at least not noticably. "Sorry pal, could you please go eat that burger elsewhere? You're making me want to barf" <- a thing that probably won't work culturally.
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Nov 3, 2014 04:39
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The other issue with eating healthy is that you do need to plan ahead - sure, you can grab a few kilos of chicken breast and go to town but you need to know what you're going to use it for and when. If you only use 1 kg and the rest spoils since you left it in the fridge too long you'll be trucking down to Macca's faster than you can say "what's that smell?"
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Nov 3, 2014 04:43
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If only there were prevalent negative societal attitudes towards fat people
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Nov 3, 2014 04:44
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Les Affaires posted:Thanks for the link Open, it shows Perth's rates at 16% for both metro areas, and 12% for Fremantle - significantly less than the national average. Pass a law that says you can't market a "burger" unless it has egg (runny centre), pineapple and beetroot and is guaranteed to dribble sauce down your fingers as you eat it.
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Nov 3, 2014 04:45
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Les Affaires posted:Thanks for the link Open, it shows Perth's rates at 16% for both metro areas, and 12% for Fremantle - significantly less than the national average. Problem is, healthy fast food is outrageously expensive (capitalises on a niche demographic), and preparing your meals takes time. You have to solve this problem first, you can't just make cheap fast food expensive. Well, you can, but you've hosed over a lot of low income people who work full time.
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Nov 3, 2014 04:48
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chyaroh posted:Pass a law that says you can't market a "burger" unless it has egg (runny centre), pineapple and beetroot and is guaranteed to dribble sauce down your fingers as you eat it. You monster
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Nov 3, 2014 04:50
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Les Affaires posted:Thanks for the link Open, it shows Perth's rates at 16% for both metro areas, and 12% for Fremantle - significantly less than the national average. They just need to update the building codes and make all the doors narrower. The fatties will start to feel ostracised and start eating better food, which will now be cheaper than unhealthy poo poo thanks to the great big new tax on fatty food. They'll be able to call a similar service to the Quit Line (the Lard Line) to get a pack of diet advice and instructions on how to get onto the Biggest Loser posted out to them. Problem solved.
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Nov 3, 2014 04:52
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chyaroh posted:Pass a law that says you can't market a "burger" unless it has egg (runny centre), pineapple and beetroot and is guaranteed to dribble sauce down your fingers as you eat it. wouldn't solve anything, everyone could just take the beetroot out and make the burger edible again.
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Nov 3, 2014 04:58
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