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suboptimal posted:Speaking of Erdogan, he's now claiming that Muslims discovered North America 300 years before Columbus did. So just 200 years after the Vikings did? 
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Nov 15, 2014 18:15
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Libluini posted:So just 200 years after the Vikings did? Africans were in South America before Jesus was even thought of. 
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Nov 15, 2014 18:24
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Libluini posted:So just 200 years after the Vikings did? Well...the King of Mali did but He's WAAAAY OFF!
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Nov 15, 2014 18:29
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Well technically every being is born in a state of Fitra and is therefore a muslim so.
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Nov 15, 2014 18:31
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Radio Prune posted:Does anyone have ABM's new video? I heard it's pretty flashy. https://archive.org/details/welayat.sena.sawla.HD.quality Yeah, they REALLY bumped up the production values on this one.
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Nov 15, 2014 18:32
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Cued up to a musical number that's all about projecting peace and stability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6ArIuTiHgo&t=1281s
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Nov 15, 2014 19:02
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McDowell posted:Cued up to a musical number that's all about projecting peace and stability. SPITTING IMAGE OWNS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFrvr7EB66g 54.4 crowns fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Nov 15, 2014 |
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Nov 15, 2014 19:27
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vanbags posted:What exactly is preventing Iran from going all-in on ISIS in Iraq? And why aren't we encouraging them to do so? Wouldn't it be preferable to have their troops on the ground rather than American ones? Same thing that prevent them from going all out on the Taleban earlier after the Talebs took Kabul and butchered the Iranian embassy. You dont invade other countries as a regional power if you are on the USAs shitlist, even with a totally excellent Casus Belli, and even if other powers in the region may back you on this (Russia would propably back Iran vs. the Taleban even before 9/11, India would back Iran to spite Pakistan, China would remain neutral and Pakistan would of course back their proxies). Vietnam paid a considerable price in going all out on the Khmer Rouge (Irans casus Belli against the IS isnt actually as good as Vietnams CB against the Khmer Rouge yet, IS would have to gratiously massacre Iranian civilians on Iranian soil for that), and Iran believes it would likewise pay a prize for going after IS.
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Nov 15, 2014 19:34
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Something else than Syria. http://tinyurl.com/mqcd8bu quote:Last week, the remaining 500-year-old Ottoman columns, commemorating the Prophet’s ascent to heaven, were destroyed, Dr Irfan Alawi of the UK-based Islamic Heritage Research Foundation, told The Independent. http://tinyurl.com/ns2vfbc  quote:Photos taken by activists in Saudi Arabia showing the destruction of the Grand Mosque
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Nov 15, 2014 19:49
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AstroWhale posted:Something else than Syria.  What the gently caress. How is this even possible?
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Nov 15, 2014 19:52
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Literal, without exaggeration, cartoon villany. Jesus loving christ.
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Nov 15, 2014 19:55
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I mean, I guess this is par for the course of the Saudi government cowtowing to the Wahabi clerical elite by bulldozing tombs and landmarks, but I don't really think that replacing them with loving malls and high-rises is exactly what they have in mind by that.
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Nov 15, 2014 19:58
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The pilgrimage to Mecca always struck me as a brilliant scheme to drive tourism, so maybe the Wahabis think demolishing 'idols' to build new hotels is in line with Mohammed's original intent.
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Nov 15, 2014 20:03
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The Saudi's are the number-one destroyers of Islamic culture. This is partly due to Wahhabi paranoia regarding idolatry, and partly due to the rapacious consumerism that drives Saudi policy. Don't read the sites they've destroyed unless you want to be really upset: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia To draw a crude comparison to Christianity, it is like arch-conservative "prosperity gospel" evangelicals were in charge of vatican city. There would be a profound contempt for what they're charged with protecting, which they would have to reconcile with their desire to make money.
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Nov 15, 2014 20:08
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Just to round up some little Iraqi news nuggets from the past week or so I haven't seen mentioned in the thread, Abadi dismissed a bunch of senior military figures following the Ashura break, including the Chief of Army Staff and Anabar Operations commander, in an effort to "restore confidence in the security forces". Ostensibly the dismissals targeted corruption and incompetence but there has been murmurings some were politically motivated and targeted detractors in the military opposed to Abadi's decision to halt the barrel-bombing of ISIS held civilian areas. The KRG and the central government reached a temporary deal over oil payments with the KRG agreeing to send 150,000 bpd to Baghdad in exchange for an upfront payment of $500 million, above the market price. It's a wonderfully kludgy deal that doesn't directly address the underlying issue of whether or not the KRG has the right to export oil independently or really address the issue of back-dated funds owed to the KRG. Regardless, it's a positive move and may indicate the KRG is growing cautious about their reliance on Turkey to facilitate their oil deals. The Albu-Nimr, an Anbari tribe from the Dulaim confederacy who have sided with the government over ISIS (and have been killed en mass by ISIS as a reward), have struck a controversial deal with the Sadrists that will see about 3,000 militiamen deployed to Anbar to assist Albu-Nimr fighters. This is well outside of the normal Shiite militia area of operation and may polarize the nascent anti-ISIS coalition that the US has been trying to build in Anbar. FP put up an article recently identifying the mystery organization that drafted the Syrian ceasefire proposals that David Ignatius leaked. Turns out it was Humanitarian Dialogue who are some very influential people, knowing they are behind the report makes it a lot harder to dismiss talk of a ceasefire as fantasy - FP makes it sound like the final report has been authored by David Harland who was the chief author of the Srebrenica Report in 1999 and is pretty highly respected. Interestingly the report seems to claim (according to FP anyway) that they have evidence of Regime/Rebel collaboration near Damascus against ISIS. I'm curious if Obama's recent pronouncements on the need to remove Assad were prompted by the possibility floated by the report that Assad's survival could be compatible with a long-term ceasefire. Maybe trying to avoid another al-Bashir style situtation?
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Nov 15, 2014 20:11
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With a good book-burning campaign and a forced conversion program, we could erase Islam from the world with the help of the Saudi.
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Nov 15, 2014 21:08
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Cat Mattress posted:With a good book-burning campaign and a forced conversion program, we could erase Islam from the world with the help of the Saudi. You need to replace it with something else that requires thousands of people to travel there every year or they won't be on board.
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Nov 15, 2014 21:11
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What's stopping them from bulldozing the Ka'ba? I mean, obviously, beyond the revenue in pilgrims, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's yet another thing the hardliners want. Daesh wanted to do that too, if I recall correctly.
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Nov 15, 2014 21:52
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Back to Erdogan's "interesting" historical claims, as seen on Facebook:
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Nov 15, 2014 22:05
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Libluini posted:So just 200 years after the Vikings did? I've always been intrigued by that - was there any interest in or even knowledge of Vinland in the rest of Europe? How long did it take before people in mainland Europe made the connection between the Americas and the Icelandic sagas? It's like Iceland had a brief explosion of vitality and creativity immediately after it was settled, before settling into utter misery and obscurity for the better part of the last millennium.
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Nov 15, 2014 22:22
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I'm not an expert, but I think it only looks that way to us 800 years later. It's not like the Vikings were trying to find India or even actively exploring for the sake of it; they just wanted another place to farm (and raid) and it turned out that there was another place west of Greenland that looked settle-able. For that matter, the Greenland colony was by far more important than the Newfoundland one and lasted a few hundred years longer. Only the mini ice age killed it. The Vikings tried to haul timber from Newfoundland to Greenland, not the other way around, and at the time the conditions were good enough this must've made sense. As far as Vinland, it appears well-educated people knew that it existed but nobody was certain what or where it was until at least the 19th century.
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Nov 15, 2014 23:06
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It's just that during the first few centuries after Iceland was settled, Icelanders were exploring in every direction and doing all sorts of cool poo poo that they would write sagas about hundreds of years later, and then it just kind of stopped. I know soil degradation and climate change made things harder for them, but it seems like it happened even before that. None of them ever said 'hey, maybe we should have another go at exploring that place that we've heard so much about in our legends'. I suppose there are indications that they may have continued to visit Vinland by way of logging expeditions, but that just makes it more intriguing. Were continental Europeans at all interested in Vinland prior to Columbus, if only to christen the heathen Skraelings? The history of Greenland is even more unsettling. The King of Denmark sent out a fleet to contact the Norse colony there in 1605, which is (probably) a century and a half after said colony had died out. Even if you take into account the fact that, by then, Greenland was blocked by ice for most of the year, how could it have taken so long for them to find out about the fate of the Greenlanders? I don't understand. Surely Icelanders must have known by then.
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Nov 15, 2014 23:33
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The answer to these historical mysteries is, of course, Aliens.
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Nov 15, 2014 23:37
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Phlegmish posted:It's just that during the first few centuries after Iceland was settled, Icelanders were exploring in every direction and doing all sorts of cool poo poo that they would write sagas about hundreds of years later, and then it just kind of stopped. I know soil degradation and climate change made things harder for them, but it seems like it happened even before that. None of them ever said 'hey, maybe we should have another go at exploring that place that we've heard so much about in our legends'. I suppose there are indications that they may have continued to visit Vinland by way of logging expeditions, but that just makes it more intriguing. Were continental Europeans at all interested in Vinland prior to Columbus, if only to christen the heathen Skraelings? This was a time when it took weeks and months to cross the ocean. Even during the time of the independence war, a fleet from Great Britain to the colonies took about three weeks in good weather conditions. There was also no communication possible except per ship, so poo poo happens. If the Icelanders never got around to explicitly tell the Danish or the Norwegians that the colony in Greenland didn't exist anymore, welp the King of Denmark I'm pretty sure just consulted his archives or something instead of risking to look like a dolt by sending a question to Iceland and wait a few months for the answer. Just too bad it happens the colony wasn't there anymore. Edit: Also holy poo poo the Dutch and the Danish had a small miniature war about Greenland during the 18th century, I didn't knew that! Libluini fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Nov 15, 2014 |
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Nov 15, 2014 23:45
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I had never even heard of this Muslim Cuba claim before this story. It's loving bizarre.Phlegmish posted:It's just that during the first few centuries after Iceland was settled, Icelanders were exploring in every direction and doing all sorts of cool poo poo that they would write sagas about hundreds of years later, and then it just kind of stopped. I know soil degradation and climate change made things harder for them, but it seems like it happened even before that. None of them ever said 'hey, maybe we should have another go at exploring that place that we've heard so much about in our legends'. I suppose there are indications that they may have continued to visit Vinland by way of logging expeditions, but that just makes it more intriguing. Were continental Europeans at all interested in Vinland prior to Columbus, if only to christen the heathen Skraelings? "Let's go exploring" was not the mentality that drove the Norse to Iceland and beyond. Iceland, Greenland, and Vinland were all discovered by accident - someone blew off-course, lived to tell about it, and others went out in search of their own new land to settle and farm, because land was at a premium in Norway (and eventually Iceland). The motivations that drove the later Spaniards - gold, slaves, souls, status, royal recognition - were not present here, so when Vinland proved to be unfarmable (because you'd be too busy dodging arrows), Norse interest evaporated.
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Nov 15, 2014 23:58
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Phlegmish posted:It's just that during the first few centuries after Iceland was settled, Icelanders were exploring in every direction and doing all sorts of cool poo poo that they would write sagas about hundreds of years later, and then it just kind of stopped. I know soil degradation and climate change made things harder for them, but it seems like it happened even before that. None of them ever said 'hey, maybe we should have another go at exploring that place that we've heard so much about in our legends'. I suppose there are indications that they may have continued to visit Vinland by way of logging expeditions, but that just makes it more intriguing. Were continental Europeans at all interested in Vinland prior to Columbus, if only to christen the heathen Skraelings? Not many people came in and out of Greenland even while the Colony was at its peak, Basically you had voyages that may have left or arrived once a year at most, the window for getting there was very short considering the arctic winter and poor condition of boats back then. While the colony was active not much came out of it, and there wasn't much known further beyond and the societies in Greenland were small and thus couldn't produce enough to attract merchants for what would have been the medieval equivalent of a voyage to Pluto, so nobody really had any reason for going there. Its most important resource that could fetch a pretty penny abroad was ivory from Narwhals and Walrus, and this trade kept contacts open between Greenland and Europe for several centuries after its foundation, but as the middle-ages progressed easier sources of Ivory to Europe were made available from Africa or through the middle-east. In addition sending people to hunt for ivory in Greenland was not ideal, it would tie up a significant amount of able-bodied males in dangerous expeditions in a society that had very few such people to spare for a resource that really was non-essential to most Greenlanders. They would also have to hunt in the summer which was the most critical time of year for them to be around at home to make use of the extremely short growing and grazing season, as such Greenland couldn't produce much ivory and as ivory prices dropped there most important link with the outside world evaporated. Combine this with the daunting task of visiting the arctic in a medieval ship and the worsening sea conditions as the medieval warm period ended and I don't think its that surprising that everyone forgot about Greenland.
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Nov 16, 2014 00:08
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suboptimal posted:https://archive.org/details/welayat.sena.sawla.HD.quality Very considerate of them to save that copy of the quran from the car full of Muslims they'd just shot up.
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Nov 16, 2014 00:09
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Dilkington posted:The Saudi's are the number-one destroyers of Islamic culture. This is partly due to Wahhabi paranoia regarding idolatry, and partly due to the rapacious consumerism that drives Saudi policy. Wow, this disregard for Islamic culture and heritage would give Dick Cheney pause.
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Nov 16, 2014 00:32
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More accurate to the Middle East, what you're looking for is dhow tradelanes and average transit times. I'm of the firm belief that fishermen from West Africa knew of the Americas, if only for the rich fishing possibilities. Folks discount the evidence there is of this since they refuse to grant human ancestors the samw autonomy and ingenuity as we currently have, with an added subtext of racial issues. Technically, there is nothing preventing trans-atlantic trade during the pre-modern era, with some evidence from antiquity which survives. I don't discount the possibility of South American->African contact either. Hell, I read a recent population study using phylogenetic sequencing and molecular clock analysis shows that Polynesians reached Chile in the 1100's +-300 odd years. I'm of the opinion that additional evidence will show it more likely than not that, as was the case of feathers and dinosaurs, human ancestors were just as cunning and innovative as we are now. This outlook does influence my understanding of ME state development, current policy, and historical interactions. While the Erdogan thing could be laughed out of hand, its not impossible at all, and if he's willing to finance best-practices archeological explorations to test his hypothesis, then why stop him? E: Usually, during the pre-Napoleonic era, the motivation for 'lets go exploring' was more 'lets find more fish and not starve to death' and less 'lets spread the word of the One True Prophet everywhere' for the vast majority of individuals. Fishing, and the fish trade, is a poor man's history, so don't expect volumuous works on its merits and exact methods to abound outside of legendary tales and myths. E2: Lustful Man Hugs posted:Wow, this disregard for Islamic culture and heritage would give Dick Cheney pause. The Sauds promote a narrative that Muhammed was one individual, with a distinct birth, life, and death, and destroy any evidence of culture and gradients that go contrary to this. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 00:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:More accurate to the Middle East, what you're looking for is dhow tradelanes and average transit times. I'm of the firm belief that fishermen from West Africa knew of the Americas, if only for the rich fishing possibilities. Folks discount the evidence there is of this since they refuse to grant human ancestors the samw autonomy and ingenuity as we currently have. Well that, or the fact that there's actual irrefutable archaeological evidence that proves that the Vinland colony existed and given that it was apparently the only serious attempt at westward exploration and colonization coming out of Europe during the entirety of middle ages perhaps it isn't that much about other people underestimating our ancestors as it is about the fact that successfully crossing the Atlantic using primitive boats is a pretty big deal that not too many people have seemingly pulled off.
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Nov 16, 2014 00:47
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My Imaginary GF posted:The Sauds promote a narrative that Muhammed was one individual, with a distinct birth, life, and death, and destroy any evidence of culture and gradients that go contrary to this. And yet they still venerate the Kaaba and the Black Stone which has always mystified me.
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Nov 16, 2014 01:01
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Well that, or the fact that there's actual irrefutable archaeological evidence that proves that the Vinland colony existed and given that it was apparently the only serious attempt at westward exploration and colonization coming out of Europe during the entirety of middle ages perhaps it isn't that much about other people underestimating our ancestors as it is about the fact that successfully crossing the Atlantic using primitive boats is a pretty big deal that not too many people have seemingly pulled off. Why is it a pretty big deal, though? And what you call "primitive boats," I label as generations worth of technological improvements that result in:  Which we know to have made the Pacific crossing to the Americas, as compared to:  Which regularly made the Indian Ocean triangle trade between the horn of Africa and Yemen, coastal Iran, India, and Zanzibar. Really, only phylogenetic sequencing of a broader sample of humanity will be able to tell us a more accurate picture of pre-European trade networks. Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:And yet they still venerate the Kaaba and the Black Stone which has always mystified me. Don't you dare go and suggest that the Kaaba was constructed by Semitic tribes and transformed into a Jewish temple before the consolidation of Islamic oral tradition when Persian slavers sold Chinese peasants who worked in the paper trade to some Baghdadis, you'll go and piss off everyone. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 01:06
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Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:And yet they still venerate the Kaaba and the Black Stone which has always mystified me. It brings in the pilgrims, and their money. That trumps what the hardliners want.
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Nov 16, 2014 02:17
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ME Chat: I'd kill for a complete copy of Al-Bakri's Books of Roads and Kingdoms. Anyone have some suggested English translations of pre-12th century muslim geographies?
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Nov 16, 2014 02:20
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Surely destroying the kaaba would bring down such a violent backlash from the rest of the Muslim world that even the Saudis must hesitate, beyond its value as a tourism magnet?
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Nov 16, 2014 02:25
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Tardigrade posted:What's stopping them from bulldozing the Ka'ba? I mean, obviously, beyond the revenue in pilgrims, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's yet another thing the hardliners want. Daesh wanted to do that too, if I recall correctly. The structure has been smashed, burned down, renovated and remodeled many times. I'm sure people would still do Hajj even if the Saudis built a McDonalds over the Kaba- it's not necessary to touch its walls or the Black Stone. Wahhabis believe that mosques and shrines cannot be built over graves, and prayer directed towards anyone but Allah is idolatry (shirk). The Saudis can justify destroying just about any site based on those stipulations, but the Kaba is afforded explicit protection in the Quran: God has interceded directly to defend it, and it says that the final destruction of the Kaba won't occur until the end times. To tear down the house of God would invite too many comparisons to the historical (and prophesied future) enemies of Islam. Regarding the ISIL threat to destroy the Kaba: that was never confirmed as originating from official ISIL PR. I could understand why they would want to prohibit people from making du'a to the structure, but actually destroying it I think would be pure nihilism. My Imaginary GF posted:The Sauds promote a narrative that Muhammed was one individual, with a distinct birth, life, and death, and destroy any evidence of culture and gradients that go contrary to this. The bold part isn't unique to the Saudis though- it must necessarily be true for people for whom the sunnah is at the center of their deen. What they do is utilize dubious interpretations of hadith and privilege the behavior of the companions over the past 1400 years of work by the ulama. edit: sp Dilkington fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 03:08
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Lot of people reporting L Jinny was wounded in an airsrike. With any luck, the fucker will bleed to death.
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Nov 16, 2014 09:00
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Apocalypto is a good depiction of Sharia Law.
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Nov 16, 2014 09:04
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ISIS just released a video of Kassig being executed.  Sua sponte.
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Nov 16, 2014 09:09
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For the record: Cindy Sheehan- Leave ISIS alone The Pope- Kill ISIS Oh saint Sheehan show us the way, we look to you for guidance oh great one.
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Nov 16, 2014 09:11
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