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RoadCrewWorker posted:Speaking of, what is Bobbins spoiler policy for this thread? Can't find anything in the OP besides the whole "no respect" thing, but i assume it's better to get into stupid plot points as/after they happen instead of frontloading that mess. I didn't mention it because we're back to standard policy: please use spoiler tags when mentioning future events, and try to avoid extended discussions about such until the whole thread can follow along.
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Nov 16, 2014 02:07
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Antistar01 posted:Edit: Actually, while I'm here, Yahtzee's Zero Punctuation video on Thief 2014 was mentioned earlier I think, but there's a link to it. It's a good summary. Some minor spoilers there, but nothing that wasn't detailed in trailers for the game, or that you couldn't easily predict based on the tired tropes trotted out in said trailers or in what we've seen of the game so far. I mentioned it. Here is Yahtzee's review of the thief series prior to Thief 4: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/544-Thief-The-Dark-Project There isn't much plot-related in it, as he focuses mostly on mechanics, game industry history, and game design.
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Nov 16, 2014 07:57
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This mini-essay in video form by Extra Credits is extremely relevant as well. I highly recommend giving it a look over if you want to really understand why The Dark Mod is good, and Thiaf sucks.
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Nov 16, 2014 11:41
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While we are posting video essays, I love this one from Errant Signal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIhEtXPGzgs (PS: the follow-up he makes on THI4F (which is SPOILER HEAVY) is really good: I found it to be a much more level-headed take on the games design goals and successes and failures in execution.) insanityv2 fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 17:48
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Just quickly: The Thief series is currently on sale at GOG for $8.67(NZD) for the next 18 hours. http://www.gog.com/promo/big_fall_thief_bundle_161114
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Nov 16, 2014 20:31
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insanityv2 posted:While we are posting video essays, I love this one from Errant Signal. It was kind of grating how much time he spent using the thieves guild quest as an example of excessive level design. He brings up all legitimate criticisms for that particular mission but didn't seem at all aware it was cut content. Otherwise he's pretty spot on, other than the levels being 'too large.' Easily my favorite thing from thief was just how expansive and daunting it was. insanityv2 posted:Requiem, Heart of Lone Salvation, No Honor Among Thieves, WS2 Home Again. Thanks for this! So far I've tried out everything except the No Honor mission which I couldn't find among the main darkmod fm downloads page. Is there another good source? Heart of Lone Salvation went from a solid manor romp to something really special once I unlocked the creepy tiny hatch at the top of the spiral staircase. 
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Nov 16, 2014 22:28
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The Protagonist posted:It was kind of grating how much time he spent using the thieves guild quest as an example of excessive level design. He brings up all legitimate criticisms for that particular mission but didn't seem at all aware it was cut content. Otherwise he's pretty spot on, other than the levels being 'too large.' Easily my favorite thing from thief was just how expansive and daunting it was. Pretty sure he wasn't aware of it until after the video was posted. Which sums up the problem with these video essays: doing a follow-up/correction is a lot more costly than writing another blog post/article. I still like the guy obv but I'm getting less and less interested in video essays/opinionating. double nine fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Nov 16, 2014 |
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Nov 16, 2014 23:09
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Iunnrais posted:This mini-essay in video form by Extra Credits is extremely relevant as well. I highly recommend giving it a look over if you want to really understand why The Dark Mod is good, and Thiaf sucks. That's a pretty good video; though, I thought much of what it touched on was obvious. Maybe that's been the problem - I assumed such things were obvious and yet other people have completely missed it. Good stealth games are puzzles that reward creative thinking and exploration, and enable emergent gameplay. It's the same reason I was unsurprised at Minecraft's success - it's perfection when it comes to emergent gameplay and exploration, and creative thinking is at its core. The reason Minecraft did so well is because so few games have these intrinsic qualities at their core; we have a high demand and low supply of these sort of games.
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Nov 17, 2014 02:28
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Cartheon posted:That's a pretty good video; though, I thought much of what it touched on was obvious. Maybe that's been the problem - I assumed such things were obvious and yet other people have completely missed it. Good stealth games are puzzles that reward creative thinking and exploration, and enable emergent gameplay. It's the same reason I was unsurprised at Minecraft's success - it's perfection when it comes to emergent gameplay and exploration, and creative thinking is at its core. The reason Minecraft did so well is because so few games have these intrinsic qualities at their core; we have a high demand and low supply of these sort of games. I think the main non-obvious thing to mention is that thief is about "making waiting engaging". That the key mechanic involves a tense LACK of action while you plan, as opposed to action in executing a decision.
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Nov 17, 2014 02:47
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Iunnrais posted:I think the main non-obvious thing to mention is that thief is about "making waiting engaging". That the key mechanic involves a tense LACK of action while you plan, as opposed to action in executing a decision. There's also some tension-release interactions going on, which I think is part of why stealth and horror gameplay have a good amount of synergy. Both types of these games work best when the waiting/anticipating state is able to build an engaging amount of tension in order to make the payoff especially satisfying. In Thief's case, this is the sense of triumph when you finally carry out your plan and get your hands on the valuables. Whereas in horror games you might not be waiting, but you're in a period between scares or high points which might otherwise be a dull point in other genres. These are obviously combined when you're trying to sneak by some sort of monster or avoid a scare.
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Nov 17, 2014 03:01
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Maybe it'll appear later, but does this Thief game not have the little gem that told you whether you were visible or not? It doesn't seem like it does but maybe I missed it.
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Nov 17, 2014 03:33
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That got replaced with shadows on the edge of the screen. The further in darkness you are, the less vision you have overall.  Also technically that little orb next to your health, but it doesn't have much variation beyond bright and dark.
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Nov 17, 2014 03:40
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Brainamp posted:That got replaced with shadows on the edge of the screen. The further in darkness you are, the less vision you have overall. That's another thing I liked about the Thief games versus modern horror/sneaking games: they had to choose between making darkness dark, or giving you the ability to see and an indicator of whether or not you were in shadow. What they went with works better because not being able to see anything isn't fun, it's just annoying.
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Nov 17, 2014 03:56
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BottledBodhisvata posted:Maybe it'll appear later, but does this Thief game not have the little gem that told you whether you were visible or not? It doesn't seem like it does but maybe I missed it. It's the circle in the lower-left corner that the health bar wraps around. There was a tutorial pop-up about it at around 6:45 in the video. There are only three levels of visibility, though.
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Nov 17, 2014 03:57
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I was very disappointed they didn't call this Thi4f because I wanted to go around calling it "thourf."
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Nov 17, 2014 05:37
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Petr posted:I was very disappointed they didn't call this Thi4f because I wanted to go around calling it "thourf." You could still call it "taff" 
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Nov 17, 2014 13:42
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   Newspaper: The Benefits of Strict Curfew Lockdown Regulations Newspaper: Clock Tower Stops Again! Lygrove's Letter Newspaper: Who Watches the Watch Hounds? Newspaper: Lockdown!
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Nov 17, 2014 18:01
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Bobbin isn't one to self promote, and I don't want to take away from the LP he's doing, but you should check his youtube channel for a somewhat different video he uploaded.
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Nov 17, 2014 18:20
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Dammit Bobbin, stop getting caught! You're better at Thief than that! I've seen alternate videos on cleaning out the jewelry store, one guy followed teh guard making a circuit and cleaned out everything behind him. Didn't knock out anyone and left with everything. That was interesting to watch.
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Nov 17, 2014 19:21
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After that safe showed up, I think this is relevant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Hec3BJBSo Also everyone know the best secret lairs are the ones that are big obvious landmarks that people leave alone because "whoooo haunted!". It's not like people try to get other people to go to haunted places on dumb bets or something. Man this is awful.
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Nov 17, 2014 19:22
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Zoig posted:After that safe showed up, I think this is relevant. To be fair, in the Thief universe, ghosts are real and so are zombies and awful skeleton undead monsters and there's really good reason not to poke around places like that. Well I guess we don't know if that's the case anymore but we all saw how much "fun" Garrett had exploring the tombs in Thief 1.
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Nov 17, 2014 20:38
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Don't forget the dinosaurs.
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Nov 17, 2014 20:38
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anilEhilated posted:Don't forget the dinosaurs. Burricks aren't dinosaurs, they're bulettes by another name.
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Nov 17, 2014 20:49
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Sorry, don't forget the landsharks.
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Nov 17, 2014 20:57
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My god, I'm not three minutes into this video, and this sound design is already loving atrocious. I can barely hear or understand anything that's being said, and on top of that, the subtitles are poorly placed! Not to mention incomplete... Is this how it's going to be for the whole game!?
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Nov 17, 2014 21:35
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I think that might be because you were still watching the cutscene, which has some horrible sound desync. Once you get into the game proper its a bit less awful.
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Nov 17, 2014 21:38
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I have no idea why the locational audio in this game is so horrendous when there's been standard solutions for doing it right out for years at this point. Also, I hate hate hate the way Garret admires all collectable loot for seconds after picking it up since you can't really do anything while he's doing that. I'll defend one thing though: The kind of stuff Garret picks up is what an actual thief would probably steal from residents. It's more like the loot Garret in 1-3 SHOULD be stealing as a burglar living hand-to-mouth. Basically anything made of precious metal has some value. Like, a merchant-class family that didn't sell jewelry wouldn't likely have a ton of worthwhile jewelry nor big stupid piles of coins laying in the open but they would likely have decent silverware, maybe a fancy gold/silver pen/letter opener, silver/gold mirrors/brushes as heirlooms, etc. Q: for Bobbin since I have forgotten and got to the paintings late- when does the first collectable painting show up again? Because well Garret's taste in art... 
Fabricated fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 22:18
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Niggling complaing #138982 about Thi4f: how unlikeable the guards are. Personally I think it was pretty key to the first 3 Theif games that the guards were actually sort of likeable, despite the fact that they'd kill you as soon as they saw you. Drunk Benny at Truart's estate :3. It made not killing them more satisfying too. In Thi4f I wanted to kill everyone. My second playthrough of this game I actually reduced the difficulty so that it would allow me to murder civilians. It felt real good to put an arrow in the throat of every fool babbling about this Orion idiot. This was probably not the emotional response the writers were seeking to evoke, but its the one they got from me and many others. What I'm saying is that the writers are poo poo. See also, Erin dying. I sure do feel things about that! It's satisfaction. insanityv2 fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 23:06
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insanityv2 posted:Niggling complaing #138982 about Thi4f: how unlikeable the guards are. edit: For those not in the know: Scurry off, or you'll acquire some unnecessary ventilation! anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Nov 17, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 23:08
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That doom mod looks infinitely better than than 7h14f
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Nov 17, 2014 23:09
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anilEhilated posted:Devoted, too. I don't think I'll ever forget LADY VAN VERNON'S SHOUTY GUARDSMAN. To this day in real life, I will call people a camel-mannered tunic-wearing mollycoddle. More Thi4f thoughts: I will defend the lockpicking minigame. It's especially nice if you turn off the UI and use an controller to rely entirely on feel. As far as lockpicking minigames go, I think Thief 3 had the best iteration, and thi4f's is basically teh same except without a visible indicator (in Thief3, the lock had a handle that would jiggle as you got close to the right position. The fact that failure could wake sleeping guards is pretty cool too IMO, but I thnk that feature was poorly used by the level designers, especially in conjunction with the poor sound design. Making lockpicking more tense was a good idea but the terribad sound design made the guard's hearing seem inconsistent. A click would alert a sleeping guard knocking out a dude right by that guard would not? As I sperg about Thi4f, you'll find this to be a common theme in my criticisms: cool gameplay feature misused/underused by the designers. The level designers, like the writers, were poo poo. I'll also defend the idea of collectibles: unique items of loot with a little backstory blurb. It's a great way to convey some world-info without shoving it down your throat in a cutscene. See also, item descriptions in Dark Souls. However, I agree that Garrett keeping them is incredibly dumb and out of character. Here's an idea, maybe there's an NPC who would wants the full set, and will pay progressively more for every peice you turn in to him? Again, cool gameplay feature misused/underused by the designers. The looting animations are sloppy. Notice how the coins that Garrett grabs from the safe seem to be glued together? insanityv2 fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Nov 18, 2014 |
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Nov 17, 2014 23:09
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quote:I'm going to the bear pits tomorrow.
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Nov 17, 2014 23:13
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So these guys have mechanical cash registers, light switches, and printing presses, but their cards still carry swords and wear armor. Okay.
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Nov 17, 2014 23:15
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paragon1 posted:So these guys have mechanical cash registers, light switches, and printing presses, but their cards still carry swords and wear armor. Okay. That's been the setting since the beginning though. A bit odd to think about, but if you're going to put the world together with that kind of sorta-steampunk arrangement as a backdrop to Garrett's exploits then it's perfectly valid. Thief 2 even had autonomous robots with cannon arms, mind-control masks, and submarines.
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Nov 17, 2014 23:25
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paragon1 posted:So these guys have mechanical cash registers, light switches, and printing presses, but their cards still carry swords and wear armor. Okay.
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Nov 17, 2014 23:32
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RickVoid posted:Bobbin isn't one to self promote, and I don't want to take away from the LP he's doing, but you should check his youtube channel for a somewhat different video he uploaded. Crap. I am working on an assassin novel with Thief elements for NANOWRIMO. Now I need to throw it out and start over. It looks like a very interesting novel, Bobbin. It sounds like Plato's Republic (the metallic castes) meets the industrial revolution. I'll have to check it out when I get done with DUNE.
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Nov 17, 2014 23:47
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The Protagonist posted:
http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/15212-no-honor-among-thieves-20/page__st__75 Unfortunately it seems that there was a show-stopping bug with this mission when run in TDM2.02 and people will have to wait until 2.03 to do so if you haven't already. It can be downloaded here: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142554 but you would have to roll back your install of TDM to version 2.00 to garantee that it would work. Bobbin, you should probably take note of this before you try to make a video. insanityv2 fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Nov 18, 2014 |
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Nov 18, 2014 00:16
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See, collectibles would work if the person who held onto the collectibles was some sort of weird noble with a underground collection of thing HE considers to precious to sell. Say, garret finds one of those, tries to sell it, fence tells him its too hot for him to take, and tells him thats there is this guy who takes things like that. garret finds the guy, guy buys thing off of him, and gives him a list of things he heard were in the city that he wants, and tells him he will pay extra for a full set. honestly thats just one of the ways to do it, but no matter what you can say, garret not selling them flat out doesnt work. hell even the game just taking note and saying "hey, this is a unique collectible, they are worth lots of money, find them." would work better then this crap.
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Nov 18, 2014 00:18
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Jeez... we're in for a bumpy ride, aren't we? Garrett just keeping valuables in a chest where he doesn't even look at them, just admiring them like a dumbass while he's stealing them, the lack of punishment for killing, or getting caught, or stealing too much, or anything at all really... About the only thing it has going for it are the visuals. Also, all these pricks as guardsmen... man, even the guards in friggin' Dishonored weren't as bad as these jerks, even the blatantly evil ones. I miss Benny  And speaking of Dishonored... mysterious plague, steampunk city, jerky guards, strange powers- I see a black-eyed fellow and I'm done.
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Nov 18, 2014 00:23
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There is no joy like gleefully evading drunk benny and having him run out of breath. Thourth is just joyless.
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Nov 18, 2014 00:31
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