EuroPol: abide by D&D values or don't post

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EuroPol: abide by D&D values or don't post

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

You know that old saying about "the best argument against democracy is 5 minutes with the average voter"?

Well, the best argument against the European Parliament is this guy:

quote:

Nigel Farage�s new friend in Europe: �When women say no, they don�t always mean it�

Korwin-Mikke, the far-right Polish leader whose deal gave Ukip more power in Brussels, reveals his views on Hitler and rape

Dapper in bow tie and blazer, Nigel Farage�s new European ally likes to welcome a woman to his grey-walled, grey-carpeted Brussels office by stooping to kiss her hand. There is a danger, though, that he will follow up this display of old-fashioned courtesy by sharing some old-fashioned views about her inferiority.

Janusz Korwin-Mikke is the eccentric head of Poland�s Congress of the New Right. With his agreement, a member of the party, Robert Iwaszkiewicz, has just joined Ukip�s parliamentary alliance, Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy (EFDD), pushing it over a threshold of 25 parliamentarians from seven countries and thus securing more than �1m in funding for Ukip alone.

A friend in need is a friend indeed. But Korwin-Mikke has the potential to be an embarrassing ally. For instance, he thinks women�s opinions are shaped by the sperm of the men they sleep with, that they are �on average� less clever than men, and that nearly half of women who tell a man they don�t want to have sex with them are feigning reluctance and should be ignored.

�Semen probably is not wasted, because nature usually makes use of the material it has, and there is a hypothesis that the attitudes of men are passed to women by way of the semen which penetrates the tissue,� he told the Observer, in the tone a science teacher might use for a basic lesson.

Giggles only prompt an admonition. �It is not a political statement. There is a very strong argument for this hypothesis, that now when contraceptives are much more in use, the women become much more independent.�

Korwin-Mikke, 72, is an extreme libertarian. A veteran with half a century�s political experience, he throws out his bizarre views in rapid-fire sentences, broken by the easy smile of a man used to deference, which only makes them seem more disturbing. There is no proof Hitler knew about the Holocaust, he has argued for years, and he told the Observer that Mussolini, who stripped Jewish citizens of property and civil rights, then sent thousands to German concentration camps, �was trying to protect Jews�.

He would like to abolish not just the European Union but democracy altogether, replacing it with an absolute monarchy, which he considers the gold standard for government. His main objection to dictatorship is that it leaves open the question of who succeeds a leader.

He hungers for what he says is a lost Europe of dog-eat-dog economic rules, the freedom to buy arsenic over the counter by the kilo, drive without seatbelts and give free rein to the aggression that he says made the continent great. �If someone gives money to an unemployed person he should have his hand cut off because he is destroying the morale of the people,� Korwin-Mikke said, adding that the state should not give anyone a cent either. �Europeans were very aggressive and now the boys are taught not to be aggressive � Give them the pistol, give them a sword.�

Apparently practising what he preaches, this summer he slapped a leftwing Polish politician in the face. Shortly before the attack, France�s far-right Front National, led by Marine Le Pen, decided he was too extreme for an alliance. But now Korwin-Mikke�s party has come to the rescue of Ukip�s parliamentary alliance.

After a defection by a Latvian parliamentarian jeopardised access to speaking time in parliament and millions of euros in EU cash, Iwaszkiewicz joined the group, ensuring it held on to its funding. An EFDD spokesman said the Pole was invited and joined as an individual, and there was �no deal with any political party�, but both Iwaszkiewicz and his leader presented the move as a party decision, to the Observer and voters at home. �That is the only group which is organised and Eurosceptic in the parliament,� Iwaszkiewicz, a businessman-turned-politician, said in an interview in the corridors of parliament, as his aides scowled at Eurocrats tucking into a free buffet lunch. �That is why we wanted � not only me but all four MEPs of the Congress of the New Right � to help the EFDD to stay alive.�

Korwin-Mikke was gleeful about striking a deal with Ukip, although evasive about specifics, saying only that it might lead to more alliances in future. �If we create our own group, perhaps Mr Farage can lend us a member of his party also.�

Polish academic and anti-racism campaigner Rafal Pankowski dismissed the distinction between Iwaszkiewicz and his party as a false one. The MEP rode into parliament on the back of Korwin-Mikke�s outsize personality, and although he may take a slightly more moderate public stance, has never attempted to distance himself from his leader�s views.

�I have never found any indication of any kind of policy difference between them � on the contrary, he has often defended [Korwin-Mikke�s views] in public,� said Pankowski. �The bottom line is that he wouldn�t have been in the European party without the leader. People voted for the Korwin-Mikke party, hardly anyone knows Robert Iwaszkiewicz.�

Rabbi Shneur Odze, chairman of Ukip Friends of Israel and a party candidate for next year�s general election, said Korwin-Mikke was �not our responsibility� because he was not in the EFDD group. Iwaskiewicz�s only comment on Hitler �was that he was an evil man who should have been executed. Hardly a Holocaust denier,� he added.

But although Iwaszkiewicz is more circumspect, he has not rushed to repudiate his leader or clarify his own position. �I think many expressions of [Korwin-Mikke] are taken out of context and put in a bad light,� he said. Asked if he believed Hitler knew about the Holocaust, he would only say: �That is how I imagine it.�

The Congress of the New Right�s hardline economic views actually make it an uneasy bedfellow for Ukip on immigration issues. Korwin-Mikke wants all borders opened and the welfare state shut down, while Farage wants borders largely shut so at least parts of the welfare state can better serve those inside them.

The two parties share a more important goal though, both Polish politicians say. �He wants to destroy the European Union, and even Lucifer or Beelzebub who is against the European Union is our ally, because it is the greatest danger to Europe,� said Korwin-Mikke, who wants to convert part of the EU headquarters into a giant brothel.

�The building of the European commission is much better, there are small rooms,� he said, trailing off to glance around his small, dark office with a new, appraising eye.

Part of his distaste for modern Europe is driven by the position of women, who he says have replaced �privileges� with �equal rights�, a phrase Korwin-Mikke spat out as if it was an insult. Most want to stay at home to raise families, and can�t be trusted to vote, said the twice-married father of six. They are also, he claims, �less tall, less heavy, less intelligent, on the average�. And he adds: �Women usually vote for the more handsome man.�

Asked how German chancellor Angela Merkel had come to power in a country where women vote, he changed the topic to sports teams coached by men. �Women want to be led by men,� he claimed. They particularly like to be led to the bedroom, he added, saying that men should often ignore a partner who said no to sex. �Women usually pretend that they don�t want [sex]. You must be competent enough to differentiate whether she seriously doesn�t want,� he said. �The percentage of women who pretend that they don�t want to have sex, but they do want in fact, is about 30 or 40%.�

Asked how a rape trial could be prosecuted if a woman�s words were not accepted as evidence of her intentions, he said men should not be convicted unless there were two witnesses to the crime.

�If you don�t have two testimonies, he must be acquitted,� he said. �Or some proof or some visible sign of rape, but if it is only her words and his words, there cannot even be a trial.�

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/08/nigel-farage-ukip-europe-janusz-korwin-mikke

# ? Nov 9, 2014 21:33

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 9, 2024 04:20

Forgall: Oct 16, 2012; by Azathoth

Junior G-man posted:

You know that old saying about "the best argument against democracy is 5 minutes with the average voter"?

Well, the best argument against the European Parliament is this guy:

Sweet, you elected Rush Limbaugh into europarlament.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 21:49

Stefu: Feb 4, 2005

Korwin-Mikke is like if someone had actually given one of those Dark Enlightment neoreactionaries some political power.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 21:50

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Stefu posted:

Korwin-Mikke is like if someone had actually given one of those Dark Enlightment neoreactionaries some political power.

My main question is just 'what in Reagan's unholy name is going on in loving Poland?' and 'who the gently caress elects this guy?'

# ? Nov 9, 2014 22:14

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Junior G-man posted:

My main question is just 'what in Reagan's unholy name is going on in loving Poland?' and 'who the gently caress elects this guy?'

It's from eating all that questionably produced polish meat I tell you. :arghfist:

# ? Nov 9, 2014 22:59

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

I think Janusz Korwin-Mikke has become my favourite European politician.

Right after Putin of course.

Edit: And Berlusconi. I nearly forgot that old scoundrel.

Riso fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Nov 10, 2014

# ? Nov 10, 2014 11:16

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

Junior G-man posted:

My main question is just 'what in Reagan's unholy name is going on in loving Poland?' and 'who the gently caress elects this guy?'

Poland is awful and incredibly right-wing, but Korwin basically runs a political cult. His followers are mostly either geriatric reactionaries (who vote for hating progress) and nerdy angry white internet males (who vote for FYGM and libertarianism).

# ? Nov 10, 2014 12:15

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Guildencrantz posted:

Poland is awful and incredibly right-wing, but Korwin basically runs a political cult. His followers are mostly either geriatric reactionaries (who vote for hating progress) and nerdy angry white internet males (who vote for FYGM and libertarianism).

Poland is obviously far better than Russia in that regard, but to be honest in many ways I think Russian and Polish culture have many ironic similarities. I wonder what would have happened if Poland had centralized during the late Middle Ages and had remained a dominant power after the 17th century.

Being part Polish-American, I crack up when I hear Americans say that "Polish people are so different culturally than those Russkis."

# ? Nov 10, 2014 12:40

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

Guildencrantz posted:

Poland is awful and incredibly right-wing, but Korwin basically runs a political cult. His followers are mostly either geriatric reactionaries (who vote for hating progress) and nerdy angry white internet males (who vote for FYGM and libertarianism).

It was still not enough - Korwin usually scored about 1-2% of votes. This year, however, after Palikot faded into obscurity, he became the only politician seen as challenging the status quo.

Ardennes posted:

Poland is obviously far better than Russia in that regard, but to be honest in many ways I think Russian and Polish culture have many ironic similarities. I wonder what would have happened if Poland had centralized during the late Middle Ages and had remained a dominant power after the 17th century.

Being part Polish-American, I crack up when I hear Americans say that "Polish people are so different culturally than those Russkis."

Polish are largely different when it comes to the worship of strongmen types, though. I can't see an equivalent of Putin rising to power here - everyone would immediately start hating his guts in the moment he climbed to the top. On the other hand, Poles do love wealthy influentiwl types as long as they can hope to become one of them. If Poland were in a similar situation as Russia, it would probably become a mess of oligarchs trying to gently caress each other over. Which was pretty much what the Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth was.

# ? Nov 10, 2014 14:58

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

I missed this when it was first published, but it's interesting (although consider the source...) story about power struggles within the ECB over QE and stimulus, with Draghi concealing documents from the German members and the Germans trying to orchestrate a quiet coup to effectively strip him of authority.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11211973/Mario-Draghis-efforts-to-save-EMU-have-hit-the-Berlin-Wall.html

quote:

Mario Draghi has finally overplayed his hand. He tried to bounce the European Central Bank into �1 trillion of stimulus without the acquiescence of Europe's creditor bloc or the political assent of Germany.
The counter-attack is in full swing. The Frankfurter Allgemeine talks of a "palace coup", the German boulevard press of a "Putsch". I write before knowing the outcome of the ECB's pre-meeting dinner on Wednesday night, but a blizzard of leaks points to an ugly showdown between Mr Draghi and Bundesbank chief Jens Weidmann.
They are at daggers drawn. Mr Draghi is accused of withholding key documents from the ECB's two German members, lest they use them in their guerrilla campaign to head off quantitative easing. This includes Sabine Lautenschlager, Germany's enforcer on the six-man executive board, and an open foe of QE.
The chemistry is unrecognisable from July 2012, when Mr Draghi was working hand-in-glove with Ms Lautenschlager's predecessor, Jorg Asmussen, an Italian speaker and Left-leaning Social Democrat. Together they cooked up the "do-whatever-it-takes" rescue plan for Italy and Spain (OMT). That is why it worked.
We now learn from a Reuters report that Mr Draghi defied an explicit order from the governing council when he seemingly promised to boost the ECB's balance sheet by �1 trillion. He also jumped the gun with a speech in Jackson Hole, giving the very strong impression that the ECB was alarmed by the collapse of the so-called five-year/five-year swap rate and would therefore respond with overpowering force. He had no clearance for this.

The governors of all northern and central EMU states - except Finland and Belgium - lean towards the Bundesbank view, foolishly in my view but that is irrelevant. The North-South split is out in the open, and it reflects the raw conflict of interest between the two halves.
The North is competitive. The South is 20pc overvalued, caught in a debt-deflation vice. Data from the IMF show that Germany�s net foreign credit position (NIIP) has risen from 34pc to 48pc of GDP since 2009, Holland's from 17pc to 46pc. The net debtors are sinking into deeper trouble, France from -9pc to -17pc, Italy from -27pc to -30pc and Spain from -94pc to -98pc. Claims that Spain is safely out of the woods ignore this festering problem.

...

Mr Draghi is of course right to force the issue. The ECB is missing its 2pc inflation target by a mile, with crippling effects on the crisis states. This itself is a violation of the ECB's legal mandate. The refusal of the German-led hawks to do anything serious about this is indefensible, and remarkably stupid unless their intention is to break up EMU, a possibility one can no longer exclude.
The European Commission's Autumn forecast this week is a cri de coeur. It warns of a "snowball effect" as deflationary forces causes debt trajectories to accelerate upwards by mechanical effect.
Brussels admits that something has gone horribly wrong, obliquely blaming stagnation on the "policy response to the crisis". It halved the growth estimate for France to 0.7pc next year, and for Italy to 0.6pc, a ritual with each report.
It says the eurozone faces a "home-grown" malaise, left behind as the US and Britain pull away. "It is becoming harder to see the dent in recovery as the result of temporary factors only. Trend growth has fallen even lower due to low investment and higher structural unemployment," it said. Now they tell us.
The collapse of investment is not some form of witchcraft. It is entirely due to the folly of deep cuts in public investment - pushed by the Commission itself - at a time of private sector deleveraging, all made much worse by monetary paralysis. Italy's rate of investment fell by 7.4pc in 2012 and 5.4pc in 2013. Even Germany's fell 0.7pc in each year.

Draghi: open your wallets for gently caress's sake or we'll all go down
Germany:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoMgnJDXd3k

# ? Nov 10, 2014 15:13

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Gantolandon posted:

Polish are largely different when it comes to the worship of strongmen types, though. I can't see an equivalent of Putin rising to power here - everyone would immediately start hating his guts in the moment he climbed to the top. On the other hand, Poles do love wealthy influentiwl types as long as they can hope to become one of them. If Poland were in a similar situation as Russia, it would probably become a mess of oligarchs trying to gently caress each other over. Which was pretty much what the Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth was.

More or less my point, if Poland had once tended toward centralization it wouldn't be that different. Poles are still plenty fond of paternalism and there is still a big social reactionary streak. Honestly, being a serf in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth wasn't that different as as it is "lauded" as noble republic.

As day to day attitudes and the way people think, it isn't as stark different as many Americans pretend it to be (especially since they probably don't know any Polish or Russian people, or have been to Poland or Russia). Poland is better off obviously, but that is from a lot of different factors and even though there is a perception gap.

# ? Nov 10, 2014 15:42

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

Ardennes posted:

More or less my point, if Poland had once tended toward centralization it wouldn't be that different. Poles are still plenty fond of paternalism and there is still a big social reactionary streak. Honestly, being a serf in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth wasn't that different as as it is "lauded" as noble republic.

As day to day attitudes and the way people think, it isn't as stark different as many Americans pretend it to be (especially since they probably don't know any Polish or Russian people, or have been to Poland or Russia). Poland is better off obviously, but that is from a lot of different factors and even though there is a perception gap.

It's pretty pointless (other than just as a fun thought exercise) to imagine an alternate-timeline modern Polish culture in that scenario. We're talking about a country whose identity is shaped to such a massive extent by the trauma of the past couple hundred years, the loss of statehood, mythology of uprisings, nearly getting genocided and so on that the legacy of a successful centralized PLC would be completely unrecognizable to. It's like saying somewhere is "just like Britain except if they'd never had a global empire" - you're taking away the defining aspect of the country's modern history.

That said, yeah, there are obvious similarities, especially since we were in the Russian sphere of influence (or outright part of Russia) for the better part of three centuries. Outside of simple everyday stuff like potatoes and alcoholism, the social conservatism is a big one. Paternalism and passivity also, although it's important to note that paternal roles are generally reserved for religious figures like JP2, politicians have no chance of that.

Korwin-Mikke's following, however, is a really bad example. It stems IMO from the exact thing that's perhaps the biggest difference between Poland and Russia, namely our deeply ingrained distrust of and hostility to central authority. The intentionally abrasive reactionary crap gets him attention, but the part that gets votes is the libertarian message of "gently caress the state, government is a bad thing that has to be kept down as much as possible, even absolute monarchy is fine because government should be so limited it wouldn't matter how it's chosen". Even the homophobia and overall horrible opinions are popular, at least among the KNP voters I've had the misfortune of talking to, not because they actually care about the "moral fabric of society" and more because something something political correctness something something censorship, i.e. it's good because it offends people and therefore protects individual liberty. ( :psyduck:

, I know, but that's their logic) This is something that would completely fail to resonate in Russia, where even reactionary homophobia has a collectivist slant. After all, Putin is successful because he strengthened the authority of the state, which is something Russians generally like and Poles generally, well, don't.

# ? Nov 10, 2014 18:19

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Guildencrantz posted:

It's pretty pointless (other than just as a fun thought exercise) to imagine an alternate-timeline modern Polish culture in that scenario. We're talking about a country whose identity is shaped to such a massive extent by the trauma of the past couple hundred years, the loss of statehood, mythology of uprisings, nearly getting genocided and so on that the legacy of a successful centralized PLC would be completely unrecognizable to. It's like saying somewhere is "just like Britain except if they'd never had a global empire" - you're taking away the defining aspect of the country's modern history.

There existed a Poland and Polish identity before that though, if anything I think national myth making is used to cover up a lot of dirty laundry and awkward similarities.

quote:

That said, yeah, there are obvious similarities, especially since we were in the Russian sphere of influence (or outright part of Russia) for the better part of three centuries. Outside of simple everyday stuff like potatoes and alcoholism, the social conservatism is a big one. Paternalism and passivity also, although it's important to note that paternal roles are generally reserved for religious figures like JP2, politicians have no chance of that.

To be honest, I think the similarities are far more than simply "Russian influence" rather than commonalities that always existed. Most Polish-Americans skipped the 20th century of that experience, and I don't know if Russian influence from the 19th century is what made them who they were (beyond America itself).

quote:

Korwin-Mikke's following, however, is a really bad example. It stems IMO from the exact thing that's perhaps the biggest difference between Poland and Russia, namely our deeply ingrained distrust of and hostility to central authority. The intentionally abrasive reactionary crap gets him attention, but the part that gets votes is the libertarian message of "gently caress the state, government is a bad thing that has to be kept down as much as possible, even absolute monarchy is fine because government should be so limited it wouldn't matter how it's chosen". Even the homophobia and overall horrible opinions are popular, at least among the KNP voters I've had the misfortune of talking to, not because they actually care about the "moral fabric of society" and more because something something political correctness something something censorship, i.e. it's good because it offends people and therefore protects individual liberty. (, I know, but that's their logic) This is something that would completely fail to resonate in Russia, where even reactionary homophobia has a collectivist slant. After all, Putin is successful because he strengthened the authority of the state, which is something Russians generally like and Poles generally, well, don't.

Granted, if anything libertarianism ultimately itself leads to authoritarianism, he is just hiding the ball a bit more than Putin does. Russians ultimately trust the state more for a variety of reasons, but even there there is always tension, historically Russia was far more decentralized until the rise of Muscovy and you can still see much of it in how the country works. Most of the rest of Russia access as a source of labor/resources but gets little in return.

I think the better explanation is they see the state as more necessary for survival rather than the Poles but on a personal level, but plenty of paternalism exists in Polish culture in my experience. I still remember a Polish Szlachta professor I had, it really opened my eyes on exactly how paternalism works.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Nov 10, 2014

# ? Nov 10, 2014 19:08

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

If you want to be really pessimistic, the endgame for everything is authoritarianism.

# ? Nov 10, 2014 19:12

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Riso posted:

If you want to be really pessimistic, the endgame for everything is authoritarianism.

Libertarianism seems a pretty quick route though.

# ? Nov 10, 2014 19:14

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

Ardennes posted:

There existed a Poland and Polish identity before that though, if anything I think national myth making is used to cover up a lot of dirty laundry and awkward similarities.

To be honest, I think the similarities are far more than simply "Russian influence" rather than commonalities that always existed. Most Polish-Americans skipped the 20th century of that experience, and I don't know if Russian influence from the 19th century is what made them who they were (beyond America itself).

Granted, if anything libertarianism ultimately itself leads to authoritarianism, he is just hiding the ball a bit more than Putin does. Russians ultimately trust the state more for a variety of reasons, but even there there is always tension, historically Russia was far more decentralized until the rise of Muscovy and you can still see much of it in how the country works. Most of the rest of Russia access as a source of labor/resources but gets little in return.

I think the better explanation is they see the state as more necessary for survival rather than the Poles but on a personal level, but plenty of paternalism exists in Polish culture in my experience. I still remember a Polish Szlachta professor I had, it really opened my eyes on exactly how paternalism works.

Yes and no. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth also had a huge influence in shaping the current Polish mentality, but it was reinterpreted and fed to the Polish population mostly by writers from 19th century, like Mickiewicz or Sienkiewicz. They pretty much glossed through the ugly elements and presented it as a liberal paradise. I don't think the real Commonwealth had such an impact on the Polish culture like its Romanticist and Positivist reinterpretations, because before the Partitions pretty much no one except the nobility really gave a poo poo. Nationalism finally started to gain traction among the common people when Poland finally got a liberal constitution and Catherine the Great intervened to bring it down.

Most of the Polish national identity is built on the struggle against the Russia and Prussia and, during the Romanticism, every previous event was redefined to fit this narrative. The Battle of Tannenberg, for example, which was the clash of proto-Commonwealth and the Teutonic Knights was presented as an important Polish victory against the Germans - despite the fact that the belligerents was a monastic order, loosely subordinate to the Holy Roman Emperor. So yeah, there were a Poland before that - but it was mostly presented by the people who lived under foreign occupation and had a message to convey.

It was a strange period and sometimes pretty embarrassing. Aforementioned Mickiewicz, for example, was the author of the concept that Poland is the Jesus of nations, destined by the God to suffer for the sins of the others. It got a bit better during the second half of the 19th century, but given that the Russian and German empires were not a good place to live for a Pole. Discrimination and forced assimilation ensured that the idea of independence was always the most important topic in Polish literature, well until 1918.

The 20th century changed very little, just elevated the Polish nationalism to the next level after the Nazi Germany invasion and attempted genocide.

# ? Nov 10, 2014 22:45

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Gantolandon posted:

Yes and no. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth also had a huge influence in shaping the current Polish mentality, but it was reinterpreted and fed to the Polish population mostly by writers from 19th century, like Mickiewicz or Sienkiewicz. They pretty much glossed through the ugly elements and presented it as a liberal paradise. I don't think the real Commonwealth had such an impact on the Polish culture like its Romanticist and Positivist reinterpretations, because before the Partitions pretty much no one except the nobility really gave a poo poo.

Wasn't the number of noblemen unusually high in Poland though? Obviously still solidly a minority, but maybe they can't be as easily dismissed as they can in other countries where being a nobleman was a far more exclusive thing. I mean, even if you're pretty much only a nobleman by title, that's still something to hold on to, especially if foreign occupiers start treating you like dirt.

# ? Nov 10, 2014 23:07

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Wasn't the number of noblemen unusually high in Poland though? Obviously still solidly a minority, but maybe they can't be as easily dismissed as they can in other countries where being a nobleman was a far more exclusive thing. I mean, even if you're pretty much only a nobleman by title, that's still something to hold on to, especially if foreign occupiers start treating you like dirt.

10-12% of total Polish population. That's quite a lot, but not enough to prevent a country from being assimilated.

# ? Nov 10, 2014 23:24

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Gantolandon posted:

Yes and no. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth also had a huge influence in shaping the current Polish mentality, but it was reinterpreted and fed to the Polish population mostly by writers from 19th century, like Mickiewicz or Sienkiewicz. They pretty much glossed through the ugly elements and presented it as a liberal paradise. I don't think the real Commonwealth had such an impact on the Polish culture like its Romanticist and Positivist reinterpretations, because before the Partitions pretty much no one except the nobility really gave a poo poo. Nationalism finally started to gain traction among the common people when Poland finally got a liberal constitution and Catherine the Great intervened to bring it down.

Most of the Polish national identity is built on the struggle against the Russia and Prussia and, during the Romanticism, every previous event was redefined to fit this narrative. The Battle of Tannenberg, for example, which was the clash of proto-Commonwealth and the Teutonic Knights was presented as an important Polish victory against the Germans - despite the fact that the belligerents was a monastic order, loosely subordinate to the Holy Roman Emperor. So yeah, there were a Poland before that - but it was mostly presented by the people who lived under foreign occupation and had a message to convey.

It was a strange period and sometimes pretty embarrassing. Aforementioned Mickiewicz, for example, was the author of the concept that Poland is the Jesus of nations, destined by the God to suffer for the sins of the others. It got a bit better during the second half of the 19th century, but given that the Russian and German empires were not a good place to live for a Pole. Discrimination and forced assimilation ensured that the idea of independence was always the most important topic in Polish literature, well until 1918.

The 20th century changed very little, just elevated the Polish nationalism to the next level after the Nazi Germany invasion and attempted genocide.

Ultimately, I think culture and attitudes are more shaped by circumstance than political history or thought through. My point is that the Polish people (the vast majority who were serfs) in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth had a lot of similarities with the Ukrainian and Russian serfs of the state they were merged into, you can point to the development of distinct national identity as proof they were different but a lot of similarities are still going to remain.

If anything a lot of these conversations seem to be purposeful steered toward political history, and the development of a Polish national narrative which is rather limited in my opinion. Also to be fair I heard most of that before and it doesn't really show me much about how Poles and Russians are incomparable to each other on a cultural/social level. They aren't the same people, but I both Russians and Poles in oddly similar ways hide between history. (Russians will may a giant deal about Polish invasions of the early modern era and so on. I am not so impressive by it either.)

It is a mobius strip of "we can't be like them, they are a bunch of jerks."

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Nov 10, 2014

# ? Nov 10, 2014 23:28

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

Ardennes posted:

Ultimately, I think culture and attitudes are more shaped by circumstance than political history or thought through. My point is that the Polish people (the vast majority who were serfs) in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth had a lot of similarities with the Ukrainian and Russian serfs of the state they were merged into, you can point to the development of an national identity as proof they were different but a lot of similarities are still going to remain.

If anything a lot of these conversations seem to be purposeful steered toward political history, and the development of a Polish national narrative which is rather limited in my opinion. Also to be fair I heard most of that before and it doesn't really move be much about how Poles and Russians are incomparable to each other on a cultural/social level. They aren't the same people, but I both Russians and Poles in oddly similar ways hide between history. (Russians will may a giant deal about Polish invasions of the late Medieval era) and so on and their own struggles. I am not so impressive by it either.)

Those former serfs were the ones that read 19th century authors. Sienkiewicz's trilogy was very popular among Polish peasants and factory workers. After 1918, the Polish Second Republic made those authors a part of the official school curriculum and promoted their version of Polish identity since the elementary school. There were no way it wouldn't have a significant impact.

Besides, it's not that Polish peasants didn't have negative experiences with Russian and German administration. Forced resettlements, mass conscriptions to the army, discriminatory policies (like demanding special building permits for Poles, preventing them from building homes), bans on public use of Polish language and other pretty brutal measures were used. Russians also heavily privileged the Orthodox church, which pissed off very religious Catholic peasants.

By the way, Orthodoxy vs Catholicism was another thing splitting the Polish and Russian cultures. Both nations made their dominant religion a part of their national identity. Russia presented itself as the Third Rome, while the Commonwealth presented itself as a bulwark of Christianity, besieged from all sides by heretics and infidels.

# ? Nov 11, 2014 00:07

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

Gantolandon posted:

Yes and no. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth also had a huge influence in shaping the current Polish mentality, but it was reinterpreted and fed to the Polish population mostly by writers from 19th century, like Mickiewicz or Sienkiewicz. They pretty much glossed through the ugly elements and presented it as a liberal paradise. I don't think the real Commonwealth had such an impact on the Polish culture like its Romanticist and Positivist reinterpretations, because before the Partitions pretty much no one except the nobility really gave a poo poo. Nationalism finally started to gain traction among the common people when Poland finally got a liberal constitution and Catherine the Great intervened to bring it down.

Merkel's idol :stare:

(not reading too much into this, people who have a favorite historical figure tend to gloss over the nasty bits but it's still ... funny?)

# ? Nov 11, 2014 11:40

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

So what are the odds on Juncker being forced out over Luxembourg's tax shenanigans? The right wing English language press has been beating the drum on the issue, which isn't a huge surprise by itself, but der Spiegel's speculating about it as well, which seems a bit more serious.

# ? Nov 11, 2014 11:50

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Gantolandon posted:

Those former serfs were the ones that read 19th century authors. Sienkiewicz's trilogy was very popular among Polish peasants and factory workers. After 1918, the Polish Second Republic made those authors a part of the official school curriculum and promoted their version of Polish identity since the elementary school. There were no way it wouldn't have a significant impact.

Besides, it's not that Polish peasants didn't have negative experiences with Russian and German administration. Forced resettlements, mass conscriptions to the army, discriminatory policies (like demanding special building permits for Poles, preventing them from building homes), bans on public use of Polish language and other pretty brutal measures were used. Russians also heavily privileged the Orthodox church, which pissed off very religious Catholic peasants.

By the way, Orthodoxy vs Catholicism was another thing splitting the Polish and Russian cultures. Both nations made their dominant religion a part of their national identity. Russia presented itself as the Third Rome, while the Commonwealth presented itself as a bulwark of Christianity, besieged from all sides by heretics and infidels.

I absolutely agree about the formation of nation identity, but there is a point where identity, especially in this case covers over a lot of continued practice. Orthodoxy and Catholicism in many ways have distinct similarities and a common history, arguably closer than the Catholic/Protestant divide. It has reached the point there is on going talk of eventually healing the schism, not to mention in the case of Ukraine groups like the Unitate Orthodox who are some where in between.

There were distinct historical and political reasons for a hard definition of identity to form, but on a personal and familial level it is a lot less clear especially once you put politics aside (when rarely it happens).

Also, there is the whole issue of internal colonization in Russia where non-Moscow Russians have a pretty tense and resentful relationship with it and the state.
Catherine the Great is a great example of this considering she was ethnically German and lived until she was 15 in Pomerenia. Obviously she is idealized (more or less) in Russian history but it still begs the question in what real sense Catherine had to do with daily attitudes and the peasant culture of serfs in Rostov.

I think conflating the Russian state with Russia culture itself is actually pretty troublesome especially since ethnic Russians by and large played a passive and if not exploited/subservient role to it.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Nov 11, 2014

# ? Nov 11, 2014 12:27

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

LemonDrizzle posted:

So what are the odds on Juncker being forced out over Luxembourg's tax shenanigans? The right wing English language press has been beating the drum on the issue, which isn't a huge surprise by itself, but der Spiegel's speculating about it as well, which seems a bit more serious.

None. As long as EPP and S&D don't call for his resignation, along with half the heads of state of Europe, there is no chance.

# ? Nov 11, 2014 13:11

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Junior G-man posted:

None. As long as EPP and S&D don't call for his resignation, along with half the heads of state of Europe, there is no chance.

I don't know, the situation outlined in the Spiegel piece didn't seem too far-fetched to me: Luxembourg gets found to have repeatedly broken the state aid rules to establish itself as a tax haven during Juncker's tenure as PM (this seems like a near-certainty), making him implicitly culpable and rendering him incapable of functioning as someone who speaks for the common european good rather than 'narrow national interests'.

Also, there have been more revelations about the turmoil in the ECB and Germany's willingness to gently caress the periphery in the FT, this time courtesy of Tim Geithner. Among other things, Draghi made up the 'whatever it takes' remark that saved the eurozone without any authorization from the ECB's governing council (basically, he promised German backing for the periphery states without actually getting Germany to sign off on it beforehand), and Merkel wanted to force Berlusconi out of power:

http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2014/11/11/draghis-ecb-management-the-leaked-geithner-files/

quote:

Geithner: Things deteriorated again dramatically in the summer which ultimately led to him saying in August, these things I would never write, but he off-the-cuff � he was in London at a meeting with a bunch of hedge funds and bankers. He was troubled by how direct they were in Europe, because at that point all the hedge fund community thought that Europe was coming to an end. I remember him telling me [about] this afterwards, he was just, he was alarmed by that and decided to add to his remarks, and off-the-cuff basically made a bunch of statements like �we�ll do whatever it takes�. Ridiculous.

Interviewer: This was just impromptu?

Geithner: Totally impromptu�. I went to see Draghi and Draghi at that point, he had no plan. He had made this sort of naked statement of this stuff. But they stumbled into it.

quote:

I said at that dinner, that meeting, you know, because the Europeans came into that meeting basically saying: �We�re going to teach the Greeks a lesson. They are really terrible. They lied to us. They suck and they were profligate and took advantage of the whole basic thing and we�re going to crush them,� was their basic attitude, all of them�.

quote:

There�s a G20 meeting in France that Sarkozy hosts which was really incredibly interesting, fascinating thing for us and for the president and I�ll tell you just a few quick things in passing so we can come back to those things. The Europeans actually approach us softly, indirectly before the thing saying: �We basically want you to join us in forcing Berlusconi out.� They wanted us to basically say that we wouldn�t support IMF money or any further escalation for Italy if they needed it if Berlusconi was prime minister. It was cool, interesting. I said no�.

# ? Nov 12, 2014 10:38

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

LemonDrizzle posted:

I don't know, the situation outlined in the Spiegel piece didn't seem too far-fetched to me: Luxembourg gets found to have repeatedly broken the state aid rules to establish itself as a tax haven during Juncker's tenure as PM (this seems like a near-certainty), making him implicitly culpable and rendering him incapable of functioning as someone who speaks for the common european good rather than 'narrow national interests'.

Yeah, but he's 'implicity' culpable, much like the CEOs of the major banks are and were during the financial crisis. Remind me, how many of those got booted out or went to jail? This is definitely a mess, but what will happen is that Juncker will issue a non-apology apology, blame his finance minister at the time (or whoever), Luxembourg will agree to some non-specific waffle about cleaning up its act, Amazon and Vodafone (or whoever) pay a couple hundred million in fines (always smaller than the amount gained from these Luxembourg constructions in the first place), and everything will go on as it has always had.

Besides, while he is tainted with this scandal, there's no implication of him not being able to speak about Europe any longer. The Council or EP could agree that Juncker needs to be completely removed from oversight of any EC investigation, which they might do, but they're not gonna kick him out for this. That would be a moral stand, and the Council doesn't do those, not really.

Besides, no-one wants to get into the nightmare of kicking out a brand new EC president after months of wrangling with a new Commission that's still decidedly wet behind the ears. It would open an appalling can of political worms. Not to mention that half or more of the EU countries have their own tax-lowering/special deals etc. for foreign and domestic companies. If they do this to Luxembourg, the Irish, the Dutch, possible the English are next and they know it.

The GUE/NGL fraction has started getting signatures for the removal of Juncker, but that won't attract nearly enough support to matter.

(From the article linked above) Look at the Commission already burying this asap:

quote:

[Commissioner for Competition] Vestager appeared yesterday in front of the Parliament�s Economic and monetary Affairs Committee, where she was previously supposed to discuss with MEPs state aid and competition rules in the banking sector.

The Luxleaks having stolen the agenda, and Vestager was put under pressure by MEPs fire to shed light on how she intends to deal with the issue. Vestager's main message was that she had "free hands� to investigate, but she played down expectations that Luxleaks would unleash many new probes.

Vestager also said that �tax agreements are not per definition illegal".

Asked if the leaked documents would be used by the Commission as a basis for investigation, Vestager said the EU executive needed more information from national authorities. �But of course we will take [Luxleaks] into consideration," she said.

Junior G-man fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Nov 12, 2014

# ? Nov 12, 2014 11:00

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Junior G-man posted:

Yeah, but he's 'implicity' culpable, much like the CEOs of the major banks are and were during the financial crisis. Remind me, how many of those got booted out or went to jail? This is definitely a mess, but what will happen is that Juncker will issue a non-apology apology, blame his finance minister at the time (or whoever), Luxembourg will agree to some non-specific waffle about cleaning up its act, Amazon and Vodafone (or whoever) pay a couple hundred million in fines (always smaller than the amount gained from these Luxembourg constructions in the first place), and everything will go on as it has always had.

Besides, while he is tainted with this scandal, there's no implication of him not being able to speak about Europe any longer. The Council or EP could agree that Juncker needs to be completely removed from oversight of any EC investigation, which they might do, but they're not gonna kick him out for this. That would be a moral stand, and the Council doesn't do those, not really.

Besides, no-one wants to get into the nightmare of kicking out a brand new EC president after months of wrangling with a new Commission that's still decidedly wet behind the ears. It would open an appalling can of political worms. Not to mention that half or more of the EU countries have their own tax-lowering/special deals etc. for foreign and domestic companies. If they do this to Luxembourg, the Irish, the Dutch, possible the English are next and they know it.

Bank CEOs are only obliged to act in the interests of their bank's shareholders, and their ability to do their job isn't contingent on persuading the EP and council to get things done. Also, Juncker can't blame his finance minister because he, uh, was the finance minister - Luxembourg's government is small enough that he wore both hats simultaneously for most of his prime ministerial career. That aside, it's important to note that the issues at stake here aren't really about tax avoidance per se (which is legal by definition...) or the exploitation of transfer pricing, it's about state aid, which is a form of subsidy and thus very illegal under EU law.

Incidentally, "they" are already doing this to the Irish (cf the Apple brouhaha) and Dutch, but there's no suggestion that the UK has anything to hide in terms of state aid - the practices of Jersey and the British Virgin Islands are distasteful, but not really relevant in this case.

LemonDrizzle fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Nov 13, 2014

# ? Nov 12, 2014 13:42

meristem: Oct 2, 2010; I HAVE THE ETIQUETTE OF STIFF AND THE PERSONALITY OF A GIANT CUNT.

LemonDrizzle posted:

Incidentally, "they" are already doing this to the Irish (cf the Apple brouhaha) and Dutch, but there's no suggestion that the UK has anything to hide in terms of state aid - the practices of Jersey and the British Virgin Islands are distasteful, but not really relevant in this case.

Isn't the City of London Corporation massively involved in tax havenry, though?

# ? Nov 12, 2014 14:11

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

LemonDrizzle posted:

Also, there have been more revelations about the turmoil in the ECB and Germany's willingness to gently caress the periphery in the FT, this time courtesy of Tim Geithner. Among other things, Draghi made up the 'whatever it takes' remark that saved the eurozone without any authorization from the ECB's governing council (basically, he promised German backing for the periphery states without actually getting Germany to sign off on it beforehand), and Merkel wanted to force Berlusconi out of power:

http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2014/11/11/draghis-ecb-management-the-leaked-geithner-files/

thankfully they've learned from this crisis. Right? _right?

# ? Nov 12, 2014 16:55

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

The only thing politicians learn is to hide their poo poo better.

# ? Nov 12, 2014 17:16

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

meristem posted:

Isn't the City of London Corporation massively involved in tax havenry, though?

Not particularly. It doesn't have much room to do so.

# ? Nov 13, 2014 04:58

meristem: Oct 2, 2010; I HAVE THE ETIQUETTE OF STIFF AND THE PERSONALITY OF A GIANT CUNT.

Nintendo Kid posted:

Not particularly. It doesn't have much room to do so.

What's space got to do with it?

# ? Nov 13, 2014 08:57

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

meristem posted:

Isn't the City of London Corporation massively involved in tax havenry, though?

What do you mean by "tax havenry" ? As a major financial centre, London is undoubtedly home to a lot of financial engineering and tax avoidance schemes but these things are legal by definition. What the EU is looking at is violations of the state aid regulations in particular - agreements between the state/tax authorities and one or more companies which give the companies in question preferential tax treatment such that they gain an advantage over their competitors. I don't believe there is any evidence implicating the UK in that sort of thing.

LemonDrizzle fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Nov 13, 2014

# ? Nov 13, 2014 09:10

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

The City of London is more about money laundering than about tax evasion. First you launder your drug/prostitution/racket/contraband money in London, and then you put it in Switzerland or Luxembourg.

# ? Nov 13, 2014 11:34

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

meristem posted:

What's space got to do with it?

What I mean is that being an integral part of the mainland UK, it doesn't have much leeway in getting up to real tax hijinx, the way your Cayman Islands or your running a company through Ireland and the Netherlands does. The City doesn't have the power to disable whole country taxes and the like, they can certainly choose to not charge additional taxes at a local level for companies formally headquartered there, but that's small beans.

# ? Nov 13, 2014 15:04

Torrannor: Apr 27, 2013; ---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Nintendo Kid posted:

What I mean is that being an integral part of the mainland UK, it doesn't have much leeway in getting up to real tax hijinx, the way your Cayman Islands or your running a company through Ireland and the Netherlands does. The City doesn't have the power to disable whole country taxes and the like, they can certainly choose to not charge additional taxes at a local level for companies formally headquartered there, but that's small beans.

I strongly suspect that you don't know what strange constitutional space the City of London actually occupies in the United Kingdom.

# ? Nov 13, 2014 15:59

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Torrannor posted:

I strongly suspect that you don't know what strange constitutional space the City of London actually occupies in the United Kingdom.

I do. They still don't have nearly the sort of leeway in taxes that outside mainland UK jurisdictions do.

To be frank, if they did, there'd be a shitload fewer companies with Irish/Dutch/Luxembourg etc holding companies for tax dodges.

# ? Nov 15, 2014 05:24

Junior G-man: Sep 15, 2004; Wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Yeah, EFDD is calling for a censure vote, which means it will go nowhere at all fast, because no-one wants to be seen to be signing or co-sponsoring a bill favoured by Marine le Pen.

quote:

Jean-Claude Juncker faces censure vote over Luxembourg tax schemes

European Union chief�s actions as prime minister of Luxembourg attacked over alleged role in creation of tax haven

Jean-Claude Juncker is facing a vote in the European parliament to declare him unfit for his post as head of the EU executive because of his alleged role in turning Luxembourg into Europe�s biggest tax haven during the two decades he dominated politics in the Grand Duchy.

Far-right and anti-EU MEPs got together on Tuesday to collect enough support for a motion of censure, which must be debated and voted on, possibly as soon as next week.

The Five Star movement of Italian former stand-up comedian Beppe Grillo is behind the attempt to declare Juncker �intolerable�, claiming he has lost his credibility as president of the European commission following the so-called Luxleaks disclosures in the Guardian and other newspapers.

Leaked documents detailed the scale of tax schemes engineered by the Luxembourg authorities for many of the biggest global brands and banks. Juncker was �directly responsible� for the tax scams that saved the multinationals billions and deprived other EU countries of tax revenue, said the motion, supported by Nigel Farage�s anti-EU Ukip party. �That commission president Jean-Claude Juncker held the office of prime minister throughout the period of these agreements makes him directly responsible for the tax avoidance policies,� said the motion. �A person who is responsible for the creation, the implementation, the governance and the monitoring of these aggressive tax avoidance policies does not have the credibility to serve the European citizens as president of the European commission.�

The attempt to skewer Juncker is being led by Grillo�s Italian sidekicks. Last week Grillo denounced Juncker as someone �telling us what to do while keeping his money in a tax haven.� Marco Zanni, a Five Star MEP, said: �The Luxleaks scandal shows that commission president Juncker in his political life has always acted to enrich his country behind its European partners, in defiance of the union and the community spirit he hopes to represent.�

Other groupings are also attempting to raise the pressure on Juncker, who was Luxembourg prime minister for 18 years until last year and finance minister for most of that time.

The far left in the parliament, while refusing to make common cause with the extreme right, is also trying to drum up support for a motion but so far has failed to gather enough signatures. A motion of censure, triggering a full debate and vote, requires the backing of 76 MEPs, or 10% of the total. Tuesday�s motion was supported by 44 from the Ukip-led caucus and 32 non-attached MEPs who included Marine Le Pen, the leader of France�s National Front. Le Pen and Ukip�s Nigel Farage are usually hostile towards one another.

Liberals in the parliament have also been calling for an inquiry into Juncker�s record on tax avoidance. The mainstream parties of the centre-right and centre-left, however, as well as many liberals, are solid in their support of Juncker, although there could be social democrat defections in the vote as well as support from some Greens.

The disclosures of the Luxembourg tax arrangements came four days into Juncker�s five-year term as commission president. He then vanished for a week. When he reappeared last Wednesday pledging to lead a new EU campaign against tax avoidance, he was summoned to the parliament where a �grand coalition� of the centre-right and centre-left protected him. It was clear on Tuesday that Juncker could count on mainstream support.

Manfred Weber, a German Christian Democrat and floor leader of the European People�s party, the parliament�s biggest caucus, attacked the motion and defended Juncker. �Europe needs strong and active leadership right now. We will reject this attack on the commission and Europe,� he said. �The anti-Europeans are trying again to weaken Europe. A very scurrilous group has banded together.�

The motion said: �EU member states have lost billions of euros in potential tax revenues due to aggressive corporate tax avoidance schemes in Luxembourg, established during the period in which the new president of the european commission Juncker held the office of prime minister of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. [It] is intolerable that a person who has been responsible for aggressive tax avoidance policies serves as president of the European commission�

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/18/jean-claude-juncker-luxembourg-tax-haven-attack-eu

I still hope it comes to a debate though. It's a scandalous state of affairs that needs hearing in the EP, but it's just a massive shame that it's led by Grillo, Farage and Le Pen - it should be coming from S&D and EPP too. As it stands, it was already short of support, but the initiative being led by those three means that it's auto-condemned to the clown cart, which it really shouldn't be.

# ? Nov 19, 2014 12:34

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

Podemos is now the most popular party in Spain.

# ? Nov 19, 2014 19:39

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 9, 2024 04:20

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Junior G-man posted:

Yeah, EFDD is calling for a censure vote, which means it will go nowhere at all fast, because no-one wants to be seen to be signing or co-sponsoring a bill favoured by Marine le Pen.

I still hope it comes to a debate though. It's a scandalous state of affairs that needs hearing in the EP, but it's just a massive shame that it's led by Grillo, Farage and Le Pen - it should be coming from S&D and EPP too. As it stands, it was already short of support, but the initiative being led by those three means that it's auto-condemned to the clown cart, which it really shouldn't be.

As I understand it, the lefties are trying to build support for a vote of their own along similar lines and have tentative rebels among S&D who are saying "we won't back you just yet but will come on board if things start sticking to Juncker".

# ? Nov 19, 2014 19:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EuroPol: abide by D&D values or don't post

«‹›640 »