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15 hours Play Dirty part 11: "Come to think of it, I can’t remember if this was my D&D game or someone’s that I played in. " It's time for Wick to talk about XP. First off, he offers a mechanic where he makes people state what they're practicing, and all XPs have to go to that thing until they're done. If they switch their focus, they lost their XPs. No justification is given, so we go on. Episode 9: "Please Sir, Can I Have Some More?" He notes that even all of the games he's designed use XP in a standard way, but he's going to try to bust our assumptions about them like the Kool-Aid Man filled to the brim with nitro, no doubt. The first bit is Wick poo-pooing character equality. John Wick posted:It’s the thought that All Characters are Created Equal. The assumption that all characters are equal is ridiculous. Is Elric equal with Moonglum? Is Aragorn equal with Gandalf? Is Frodo equal with Aragorn? Now, granted, Fafhrd and the Mouser are pretty equal, but they’re the exception rather than the rule. Man, I'd much father play Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser than the cast of Rings, the Rings guys don't have very much fun. But Wick suggests we have players do prose writeups of their characters and the GM assigns stats, though not to just reward the wordy folks. Instead, giving some Vampire examples, he suggests rewarding the character you find more interesting.  The second bit is for games that offer bonus XP for the best roleplayer or biggest ham or the like, and he suggests making sure that the quieter players aren't singled out, and instead to reward something valuable they do when they do it, so it's clear what you value about them. It's a neat idea, but I think that sort of reward system is better with expendables (fate, drama, hero, whatever points), which most games have now incorporated. Heck, it wasn't that uncommon when this was written. But that's just me editorializing. The third bit is just having players get a bonus XP each session to aware to another player. (That seems positively quaint in the face of games like Tenra Bansho Zero these days that basically have the players throwing XP at each other wildly, but it's a nice idea.) The fourth bit is about finding ways to reward players outside of XP. He talks about giving people special magic item rewards, like a luckstone and sword of sharpness combo for a luck-themed duellist. Another was a word-keyed magic hammer for a dwarf under a curse that he couldn't talk without going a berserk. Wait, is that a reward? He talks about making sure social characters get rewarded with allies and surprise aquaintances. Fifth bit is a diversion where he talks about some friends making a religious-themed RPG, but- John Wick posted:Now, in my book, Faith sums up to “Believing in something you can’t prove.” If you’re gonna have Faith in an RPG (something I’m figuring out in Orkworld right now), you can’t call it “faith.” There’s a mechanic for it. Players can see it. Players can prove it. That ain’t Faith. That’s Devotion. I don't think we ever saw that one. Wait, did he just avoid mechanics by inventing a mechanic? That's some Zen poo poo, right there. Lastly, there's a Vampire game where he represented blood points with Hershey's Kisses, but when a vampire disease came around, he used ones with almonds to represent that. John Wick posted:By the time they bit down, it was already too late. Uh-huh. Next: "I’ve mentioned my Vampire character before. You know, the super-duper killing machine Assamite nobody can stop? Oh, right, the example he gave of an awesome character that you should reward was a super-badass assassin vampire that sends his victims flowery letters about how they are going to die and then goes and kills them but went Buddhist and is trying to find enlightenment so doesn't kill anyone anymore. He compares it to an assassin NPC from one of his games that was a "murder as an art form" flowery vampire assassin who he says wasn't as interesting. Well, the more interesting combat-maxed vampire assassin, anyway. On to the next one.
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Dec 3, 2014 21:26
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Evil Mastermind posted:I remember this being an adventure in Shadis magazine way back in the day, so Wick may have actually published this (it even has the players waking up in Al Amarja), but I don't remember the "wake up" trigger being character suicide, instead it was the looping "simulation" glitching out. It's kinda the shittiest way to be introduced to Over The Edge and Al Amarja. Al Amarja really should be run like something like the town in Blue Velvet, where everything seems normal at first (at at least, normal for a Mediterranean third world country), but as you get deeper, things start getting stranger and more disturbed.
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Dec 3, 2014 21:27
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That was John Tynes, it was called Power Kill, and it was somewhat amusingly bundled with Puppetland. e: Whoops new page.
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Dec 3, 2014 21:38
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Speaking of authorial quirks that instantly alert you to how much of an rear end in a top hat someone is, anybody who unironically appends a statement of theirs with "heh, heh, heh" or something along those lines is probably some sort of tool.
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Dec 3, 2014 21:50
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That whole section with the heh heh heh just reads like any grog ever talking about how to treat paladins. Ooh did you make a largely superficial choice about which class to play and land on one with religious overtones? Better lube up your cornhole because here comes the bizarre moralistic houserules about fickle gods! Someone tell me this gasbag has a treatise somewhere on how to deal with players casting wish spells. theironjef fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 21:57
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Heaven forbid the game be fun for the players.
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Dec 3, 2014 21:58
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I think this may be the first time something like this has been asked in F&F history, but... Please stop posting Play Dirty.
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Dec 3, 2014 21:59
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Evil Mastermind posted:I think this may be the first time something like this has been asked in F&F history, but... No never stop. This is a billion times better than another argument about whether the skins are actual or symbolic.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:00
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I see that 'heh heh heh' and all I can picture is creepshow McConnaughey from Dazed and Confused. Anyway, on bait & switch games, I've had good successful games doing that kind of thing. The reason they were successful was because I told the players that it's going to be a bait & switch game. They knew what was going on, they didn't know what the turn was going to be, but I wasn't pulling the carpet out from under them with no warning. I see it more like going to a magic show. You know you're going to be tricked, and part of the fun is finding out how. Also, I didn't do mean bait & switches. One was where the group was a set of scientists and explorers who were "expecting" to go out for first-contact and interstellar travel. Instead they fell through a time-warp into a post-apocalyptic future and crash landed back at home. The setting and theme changed dramatically, but their skills were still useful, just in different ways. I didn't take away their ability to succeed. I can't see how Wick has fun torturing and bringing down his players they way his book is describing. It just sounds... frustrating, for everyone involved.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:10
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Evil Mastermind posted:Please stop posting Play Dirty.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:13
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You guys got your eleventy volumes of James Desborough, I get Play Dirty.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:14
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El Spamo posted:I can't see how Wick has fun torturing and bringing down his players they way his book is describing. It just sounds... frustrating, for everyone involved. Like someone pointed out earlier, it's entirely up in the air how much of this is 100% verbatim actually happened at the table just like Wick tells it and how much is poo poo that didn't happen. I can believe there are groups out there that would tolerate a pass-agg rear end in a top hat GM making GBS threads all over them because a lot of people get it into their heads that's what playing an RPG is supposed to be like. At the same time Wick is a huge egotist and in Play Dirty he's basically writing "The Adventures of Super-Awesome and Handsome GM John Wick, by John Wick" so it's impossible to say whether/how many times he's eliding over those instances where he tried one of his amazing GMing techniques and a player told him to go gently caress himself.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:15
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Don't stop until your dark work is complete. See this through to the bitter(-that-he-isn't-in-charge-at-AEG) end.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:17
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Evil Mastermind posted:I think this may be the first time something like this has been asked in F&F history, but...  El Spamo posted:Anyway, on bait & switch games, I've had good successful games doing that kind of thing. The reason they were successful was because I told the players that it's going to be a bait & switch game. They knew what was going on, they didn't know what the turn was going to be, but I wasn't pulling the carpet out from under them with no warning. I see it more like going to a magic show. You know you're going to be tricked, and part of the fun is finding out how.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:17
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Halloween Jack posted:You guys got your eleventy volumes of James Desborough, I get Play Dirty. I didn't want those either! 
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Dec 3, 2014 22:18
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Well yeah, the big story about how he had a villain kill a character's grandmother, causing that character to retire in shame, is total STDH. We're supposed to believe a player was so beaten at a table that they quit, but literally quit from the story and not just because the DM was being an rear end in a top hat? Also I like how reading this thing in short really calls up how bullshit his views are. Like you've got him railing against how the Fellowship of the Ring aren't all equal power levels and some of them deserve more spotlight and that's how story works and you should play your game as if it was the story you were basing it on. Fine. Except I don't remember the part in Spider Man where Kingpin breaks in and murders Aunt May to teach Spider Man a lesson about having useless old relatives.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:21
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And like I said earlier, assuming the best case scenario where everything about that story is 100% factual and true, Wick goes on to brag about how nobody at his table ever incorporated NPCs into their characters' backgrounds again, then goes on to complain about how everybody shows up his table with brooding lone wolves. So even if you're extremely charitable and believe everything he says, he still comes across as a huge idiot.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:25
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14 hoursJohn Wick posted:(A Minor Prelude: Thank you to everyone who found me at Origins and said, Play Dirty part 12: "If you know your GM doesn’t flesh out NPCs, start getting conversational." Now, Wick tells GMs to "get lost!", he wants to talk to players about a secret: GMs want to be entertained by players. It was a secret. Chapter 10: The Players Strike Back He notes a time that his super-awesome ex-assassin vampire went in and took down a whole cop station nonlethally to rescue his PC, and says GMs will let you get away with a lot if it helps the party. He titles this "breaking the rules" but no rules seem to be broken. In addition, he lauds players who play to their character's intelligence and knowledge by having them to do dumb or ignorant things that keep things more entertaining, and that GMs won't punish you if you're keeping things moving. Then, he adds to know your GM and go along with stuff that they like. Or challenge them in their weak spots, like starting fights if you know your GM is lousy at fighting!... but not to go against the grain of his plan on purpose to ruin fun. Or to give your character a sudden twist, like having them find religion or fall in love and have that become their main motivation, not so much that you can't still have adventures, but to shift your character's motivation for adventuring.  This column is shorter than the rest (Wick was busy with various things, including Orkworld), so that's what we get. And... that was that. That's the last regular column that Play Dirty had. He returned to do one last column for Pyramid's 10th anniversary, so the next one's the last. So, on to the last one. Next: "That’s when she shrinks down and pulls the hood of her sweatshirt over her head. Poor thing."
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Dec 3, 2014 22:26
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More wick I will be vindicated as Not-the-worst-GM. 
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Dec 3, 2014 22:27
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Evil Mastermind posted:Please stop posting Play Dirty.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:28
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Kai Tave posted:And like I said earlier, assuming the best case scenario where everything about that story is 100% factual and true, Wick goes on to brag about how nobody at his table ever incorporated NPCs into their characters' backgrounds again, then goes on to complain about how everybody shows up his table with brooding lone wolves. So even if you're extremely charitable and believe everything he says, he still comes across as a huge idiot. I picture this as the part of the story that's missing: "And your character is broken mentally and retires in shame." "What? No. She's enraged and swears she will see the murderer brought to jus.." "No, actually. *Rolls dice behind GM screen* She went crazy with grief and retired because of this... 22."
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Dec 3, 2014 22:28
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theironjef posted:Except I don't remember the part in Spider Man where Kingpin breaks in and murders Aunt May to teach Spider Man a lesson about having useless old relatives. Because it was the Chameleon.  well at least that's what he tried to do.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:30
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theironjef posted:Except I don't remember the part in Spider Man where Kingpin breaks in and murders Aunt May to teach Spider Man a lesson about having useless old relatives. loving Clone Saga. 
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Dec 3, 2014 22:33
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Siivola posted:Because it was Norman Osborn who did that. Also it wasn't actually Aunt May, it was an actress.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:34
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Right, there have been close calls and plot hook threats. I get that. That's what's GOOD about having connected NPCs. Also after Gwen Stacy and various Aunt May disasters, Spider Man is down, and even threatens to retire from time to time, but it's always part of an arc, and then he comes back blazing. There's no regular story where someone offs Aunt May and wins and Spider Man quits and spends his days drinking to forget. Even if Spider Man dies, the arc that Wick is proscribing of "Character learns not to have a family, quits forever" never loving happens.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:38
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theironjef posted:Right, there have been close calls and plot hook threats. I get that. That's what's GOOD about having connected NPCs. Also after Gwen Stacy and various Aunt May disasters, Spider Man is down, and even threatens to retire from time to time, but it's always part of an arc, and then he comes back blazing. There's no regular story where someone offs Aunt May and wins and Spider Man quits and spends his days drinking to forget. Even if Spider Man dies, the arc that Wick is proscribing of "Character learns not to have a family, quits forever" never loving happens. Does One More Day count?
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Dec 3, 2014 22:40
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Evil Mastermind posted:I think this may be the first time something like this has been asked in F&F history, but... I'd been asked to do this one after Way of the Scorpion, and I resisted. I resisted because I thought it would make me too upset to do, but honestly it's coming out without too much of that, it just feels clinical to sum the whole thing up. I'm mostly a little frustrated to see the constant 180s he does on a re-reading. "Combat monsters are bad. [later] Now let me tell you about my totally awesome combat monster." "There was this time people wanted me to run D&D, so I lied and switched the game to something else mid-game. [later] The real truth is that you should run what your players want, even if it's D&D!" "I swore never to kill any of my Champions characters. [later] Here's how I cheated with dice to kill off Champions characters." But I guess a benefit to being a hypocrite is that you're at least half-right, which isn't the worst place to be. But with Play Dirty 2 on the horizon I figured I'd better do that before the campaign's complete. It's too late for pledges to be pulled, though, so I'm not attacking it, but it felt a little like defeat not to beat the new book to the punch, and we only have a half-day left for one more post. As for Play Dirty 2: we'll see. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a better book, still probably not to people's tastes, but I imagine we'd have less war stories about the time John pushed a baby over and kicked it for a field goal and won the game. I feel like I'm too hard on Wick, and then I read people's responses and am like ohnoyoudidn't and feel like I'm probably doing just fine.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:41
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Kurieg posted:Does One More Day count? Good god what do you think. That's the Wick of Spider Man.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:44
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Legit question, why do you feel like/worry about being too hard on Wick? He's not history's greatest monster, sure, but in the context of "guy publishes a book of SUPER-RAD GMing advice" 90% of the advice he gives is completely and utterly terrible wrapped in a thick veneer of smugness. That's not even taking into accounts his hilariously bitter reviews of games more popular than his or tales of him burning professional bridges.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:45
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We have the same capacity for joining bandwagons as the rest of the forums, and both Wick the narrator and Wick the designer are such asshats that it's all too easy to go from 'this guy's got some shitheaded views' to 'this man is the Antichrist'. It's happened.
Bieeanshee fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Dec 3, 2014 |
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Dec 3, 2014 22:51
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John Wick, discussing 3e D&D posted:First, I wanted a young noble who, at the age of ten, found he had sorcerous abilities. This, of course, meant he was a sorcerer. His father, the king, was elated, but his wise men notified him there was only one way his son could be a sorcerer: if his mother slept with a dragon. That meant my character was a bastard, cast out and ostrasiced by his family and friends. He still has his sorcery, and he's looking for his true father. And when he's strong enough, he's gonna come home and he's gonna free his mother [locked up in the tower], and defeat his tyrant father. Sound like a fun character to play? Well, you can't. There are no rules for royal characters. I wanted contacts and money and other noble stuff. I've always wondered why he couldn't play that second one. Isn't that just a rogue with a few ranks in Perform? Could it be that he's completely full of it and never read that book at all? That perhaps he just saw the book had character classes, threw his hands in the air, and started pounding out one-sentence paragraphs as fast as his beard could shake?
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Dec 3, 2014 22:53
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Look man, how are you supposed to woo someone without Charm Person? It just doesn't work.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:56
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theironjef posted:Well yeah, the big story about how he had a villain kill a character's grandmother, causing that character to retire in shame, is total STDH. We're supposed to believe a player was so beaten at a table that they quit, but literally quit from the story and not just because the DM was being an rear end in a top hat? No no, the grandmother died of natural causes, as the PC lay paralyzed on the floor in front of her, with a broken spine. Those natural causes supposedly being "saw her granddaughter was a superhero". Not, you know, "saw her granddaughter fall through the skylight right in front of her". The PC had a cameo as a wheelchair-bound lawyer for the finale.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:58
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Kai Tave posted:Look man, how are you supposed to woo someone without Charm Person? It just doesn't work. The writeup says he never gets to learn Charm Person, just a bunch of boring stories. The character concept is literally "Rogue that quit bard school before learning any good bard stuff."
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Dec 3, 2014 23:02
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Yeah I know, I just thought that was a funny bit of his brilliant character backstory. "Then I wanted to make a character who was good with the ladies. 'Where's the mind-control magic?,' I asked."
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Dec 3, 2014 23:09
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13 hours Play Dirty part 13: "These wonderful folks who reminded me why I love gaming and I return the favor by doing absolutely awful things to their characters." I'm mostly going to just let Wick talk, I don't have much to add here.  Episode 11: The Return of Play Dirty John Wick posted:There’s a new girl in my life. I say “girl,” because that’s what she is. Barely out of high school, but smart and cute as a button. And bouncy. She’s gained the Secret Superhero Nickname of “Happy Fun Ball.” Cute, bouncy, and full of potential disaster. “Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball” is what everyone says whenever someone gives her a hard time. ‘Cause you just don’t know what she’s capable of. The workplace was Neopets. John Wick posted:Thieves. Just thieves. No, not “rogues.” Thieves who call themselves rogues are like Trekkies who call themselves “Trekkers.” Lame. John Wick posted:I can get away with a thief-paladin this because I’ve ditched alignment. Funny how many ideas that liberates, eh? At one point Wick announced he was going to do a "Book of Thieves" for d20 that never emerged. You can still find the advert on the Pathfinder License Agreement registry. John Wick posted:The assassin-priests of Ikhalu. They’ll be seeing your d20 System shelf any day now. They don't, but they do show up in Enemy Gods. John Wick posted:Well, our Happy Fun Ball has chosen her thief to be a specialist in knives. So, while they’re all fighting these assassin-priests, she sees one of those magic knives in the dead hand of an Ikhalu Priest... and I tell her to make a Willpower Save. She looks confused at me. “What for?” she asks. John Wick posted:Conclusion On to the... huh. That's all. Later, Wick. Next: We return to the Monsterhearts writeups already in progress.
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Dec 3, 2014 23:31
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Wow, ended on a note of "Let hot girls play as if they are the DM and they'll favor you."
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Dec 3, 2014 23:35
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That, uh, sure was a lot of emphasis on how UNDERAGE and PERKY that girl was, and how much pleasure he got out of taking control of her character and then making her curl up into her hoodie no seriously someone call the loving police
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Dec 3, 2014 23:53
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I don't see granos??
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Dec 3, 2014 23:56
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Uuuugh. the way he described "Happy Fun Ball" is just gross. That condescending slime just oozing and some barely concealed lust.
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Dec 3, 2014 23:59
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