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General politics has been discussing abortion and I thought we should take a separate thread to the issue of Abortion. Today 500,000 people (they say) are in Washington to march for this unfortunately titled event  The title of thread comes from the Senator of Texas quote:This is a subject I know something about ... Watch a sonogram of a 15-week baby, and they have movements that are purposeful. They stroke their face. If they’re a male baby, they may have their hand between their legs. If they feel pleasure, why is it so hard to believe that they could feel pain? Current news on anti choice efforts: quote:A symbolic messaging bill to ban abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy threw the party into disarray and was abruptly pulled at the last minute after a group of GOP women and swing-district lawmakers raised hackles over a rape-exception provision that required rape victims to report the crime to authorities before they could get an abortion. One of the most extremist abortion movement is Save The 1 which wants abortion to be illegal with no exceptions (rape,incest and life of the mother)      Required Watching: Vice Documentary on the lies of Crisis Pregnancy Centers Mr Ice Cream Glove fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 21:46
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 Its a child not a choice
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Jan 22, 2015 21:50
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 Isn't Abortion constitutionally protected anyway via Roe vs Wade (or whatever its called again)?
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Jan 22, 2015 21:50
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Cross-postin'AreWeDrunkYet posted:People forget that everyone is anti-abortion, it just happens to be the least bad alternative in a lot of cases. Pro-abortion people simply don't exist (sociopaths excluded) - pro-choice folks would be perfectly happy if there were zero non-medically necessary abortions due to solid sex education, available birth control, and appropriate support for adoption.
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Jan 22, 2015 21:51
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duck monster posted:Isn't Abortion constitutionally protected anyway via Roe vs Wade (or whatever its called again)? Not if those old white politicians have their way 
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Jan 22, 2015 21:52
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duck monster posted:
For now.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:00
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duck monster posted:
At the federal level RvW is a decision on whether someone has a protected right to choose an abortion. It basically says you can't outright ban abortions altogether. The strategy for decades has been to harass, legislate, and regulate every aspect of abortions until it's effectively banned, but not explicitly banned.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:11
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Thankfully, the New Republic is largely Republican masturbation fantasies.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:11
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Continuing from General Politics. Xibanya posted:I also want to frame this in a different way. In many countries from which people adopt, children are kept in orphanages under disgusting conditions. Those who are raised in these orphanages often have significant physical and developmental delays due to malnutrition and negligence and have poor outcomes. I don't think it's even close to the same thing though. That adoptive parent isn't consigning that other child to death, that lovely country is. Hell, for even going that far, and adopting a kid in need, that parent is awesome in my eyes. But if it's your baby, you make that choice whether to terminate it or not. It's between you, and your doctor and whatever morality system or lack thereof that you have. It doesn't matter that I think it's a terrible and preventable tragedy. I've worked with disabled kids in the past, and wish that I could get through the schooling needed to do it for a living. Those kids deserve better than we give them.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:14
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i apologize to my infant child every day as i sincerely believe existence is one of the cruelest things you can inflict on a person
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Jan 22, 2015 22:19
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From old thread:quote:it's a great thing that yes, we can find out if the child would have some kind of horrible disease or mutation that would make it endure a short, painful life. Its legal and safe abortion, if the mother wanted it, would be a tragedy, but still a good thing. Why is this a tragedy? Inconvenient, but she can try again. You argued that we should cry for aborted babies because they have heartbeats and brain activity and that we shouldn't cry for eggs shed during the menstrual cycle because they don't but didn't provide a convincing argument why a heartbeat and brain activity alone are enough for personhood. You know that pigs can have rich emotional lives but I see no indication that you have given up pork. The difference between a fetus and a pig is that a fetus may some day become human - but the potential future attempt at pregnancy can also some day become human. Why should the potential wanted pregnancy be sacrificed for the unwanted pregnancy when both are just potential and are not anything in their own right? quote:it's not much of a step from Downs syndrome to, let's say a genetic disorder that will eventually cause blindness. Which I wouldn't wish on anyone, but that doesn't mean that person can't live a full and great life. My wife is blind from that sort of thing. I myself have a severe learning disability. I worry that those increased tests will make people like myself and my wife a thing of the past. I don't think that's right. Our flaws are part of what make us who we are. People with inherited genetic defects often already screen for the gene and use in-vitro to conceive, so these traits are already being selected against. It's a poor reason to look down on people who choose to abort. (from USPol thread)
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Jan 22, 2015 22:21
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I mean, it comes down to this: If its an abortion within the first trimester, especially really close to conception, is it really any more of our business than, say, if that woman had a miscarriage and never knew?
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Jan 22, 2015 22:30
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Xibanya posted:From old thread: They're alive and can dream and think. Sure, it's basic, but it's still human life. I understand if it's not enough for you and for others, but it is for me. Maybe human life has no inherent meaning or value, but honestly I don't think I want to live in a world where that's the prevailing view. I do grapple with eating meat. It's something I don't want to think about, because it makes me feel really guilty. I wish I could go full vegetarian without a whole lot of trouble, especially the lack of food that I'd actually want to eat. We probably shouldn't be eating mammals at all. They all dream. Fish? Do they even dream? Chickens? I don't know. We probably should work towards being more vegetarian as a species, if we can. I don't look down on people who get abortions. I pity them. I feel sorry for what they did. Sad for the life lost before it had a chance. Sure it's sappy and internet uncool to have an emotional attachment to anything, but there it is. CommieGIR posted:I mean, it comes down to this: If its an abortion within the first trimester, especially really close to conception, is it really any more of our business than, say, if that woman had a miscarriage and never knew? Talmonis fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 22, 2015 |
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Jan 22, 2015 22:35
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Do you feel sorry for a person to be brought to life in a family incapable or undesiring of their existence? Although to be honest it doesn't even matter because you're not the only giving birth to them.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:38
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joeburz posted:Do you feel sorry for a person to be brought to life in a family incapable or undesiring of their existence? Although to be honest it doesn't even matter because you're not the only giving birth to them. Yep. Then too. It's crappy all around. We need a lot better birth control, and Abstainance isn't it.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:40
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Talmonis posted:I don't think it's even close to the same thing though. That adoptive parent isn't consigning that other child to death, that lovely country is. Choosing to not take an action is still an action in my book. Perhaps we would fundamentally disagree on the solution to this problem: quote:The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice? In my eyes it would be wrong not to push the side track man into the path of the oncoming train. Sounds like you believe it would be better to let "nature take its course". quote:Hell, for even going that far, and adopting a kid in need, that parent is awesome in my eyes. quote:But if it's your baby, you make that choice whether to terminate it or not. It's between you, and your doctor and whatever morality system or lack thereof that you have. It doesn't matter that I think it's a terrible and preventable tragedy. I'm imagining I'm pregnant and learn the fetus will develop a severe mental disability, but because of attitudes like the above, my partner pressures me (possibly emotionally blackmails me) into carrying the child to term. I now I have a developmentally disabled child who, as an adult, can never be independent or advocate for him/herself. I pass on in my old age and then rapacious relatives circumvent the trust fund I set up for the care of my child when I was still alive and spend all the money I left behind and put my adult child in a terrible nursing home where they are abused, sexually and physically, for the rest of their life. That is a terrible and preventable tragedy. quote:I've worked with disabled kids in the past, and wish that I could get through the schooling needed to do it for a living. Those kids deserve better than we give them. 
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Jan 22, 2015 22:43
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Talmonis posted:Yep. Then too. It's crappy all around. We need a lot better birth control, and Abstainance isn't it. We need to promote safe sex. Thanks a lot, Pope! 
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Jan 22, 2015 22:43
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I am somewhat bemused by your position, Talmonis. On one hand you seem to be arguing that abortions based on evidence of a serious medical problem with the fetus will lead naturally to abortions based on aesthetic criteria or trivial problems, and on the other you say that you don't oppose abortion at all. To further complicate this, you said you "draw a line" with abortions outside of serious medical issues. Am I to understand that you personally do not like this development and would detest abortions involving less serious problems (I disagree with your argument but less us assume it is true) but would not seek a change in the laws to meet your moral standards?
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Jan 22, 2015 22:47
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Repostingsomeone else posted:That's a good distinction to make. Plants are alive, lizards are alive, and dogs are alive, and toddlers are alive; most people do not assign equal values to those lives, of course, and in fact usually rank them all differently in importance. While life should not be treated callously, assigning the value of an adult person to a fertilized egg is creating a false equivalence and greatly endangers the one that can be proven and demonstrated to have personhood. That's just my personal opinion, of course. Human life is put on a different pedestal from other biological life in general; a fish's death for a meal or a deer hunted for venison is not seen as a moral wrong. So: how is it determined when a being gains humanity? To answer this, you have to get philosophical and ask yourself, 'what makes us us?' The three things I can think of that might be used to determine when life becomes 'human' are a> the soul, b> having biological function (aka ability to live and breathe as an individual human being) and c> having a brain a>Is it one's 'soul?' If so, what is the soul--does this idea of 'soul' come from a theological standpoint? Would you consider it fair to put your own theological standpoint on those who don't believe in such a thing? (Do you believe that moral purity across the population is more important than a government which allows freedom of religious practice and separates church and state?) Why does the combination of sperm and egg specifically imbue a fetus with a soul--why can't it be possible that a soul develops during gestation or is given instantaneously at birth? Are you in a position of spiritual authority to be certain of the answers to this, and if not, is anyone on this earth? b>Is it biological function? If so, then to what degree of autonomy does a human being become an individual human being? If functioning is completely dependent on a host (or mother in non-thought-robot terms) up to a certain point, then would you consider a human being to be a human being at conception or at the point at which the being becomes able to live individually? The current national standard for abortions is that none may take place after a certain point where the fetus's viability of survival outside the mother is high (barring certain exceptions). c>Is it one's thoughts and experiences (the mind?) No other form of life has a brain as developed as human beings' brains, essentially making us the only ones able to assign the idea of humanity to ourselves. If the mind is what makes us human, then human life begins when a being becomes capable of higher cerebral function, which begins rather late in pregnancy. The cerebral cortex, which is what allows us to think, have conscious experiences, do actions voluntarily, remember things and experience sensations of feeling, is the last part of the brain to develop. It starts developing around the 26th week. Before then, the fetus cannot feel anything--not even pain (according to the current scientific consensus) and any responses to outside stimuli the fetus makes are automatic and not perceived, much like the reaction an amoeba has to being poked. *Though we cannot detect pain in any organisms that are unable to explicitly communicate with us, since we can't fully map sensory experience, we do know that the part of the brain that humans sense pain with are not present in some animals and also aren't there yet for embryos before the start of the third trimester. Even if there were some extraordinary way of a brain being able to feel the sensation of pain with a different part of the nervous system that it, for some reason, soon loses the pain connection to, embryos are already naturally kept from feeling anything at all, until birth. This is thanks to the natural sedatives and anesthetics present in embryonic fluid. My personal belief is C. The current legal standard of abortions being allowed on fetuses before the individual viability point is reached (but not after!) allows for those who do not have the circumstances right for parenthood to be ready and set and good to have the option of not bankrupting themselves over what is, when it comes down to it, something no more human (by that definition) than livestock (which are routinely killed). Some profess that one should not take lives of any animals whatsoever, but that's not an opinion I have. There is an economic reality that I cannot get away from which tells us that mere existence of one thing comes at the cost of other lives; for all of the plants and animals and minerals and energy consumed could be used by another. Plenty of livestock is raised and killed for the benefit of human society, since we cannot eat some plants that those livestock can eat and millions or billions would not be able to exist without this.
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Jan 22, 2015 22:47
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Xibanya posted:Choosing to not take an action is still an action in my book. Perhaps we would fundamentally disagree on the solution to this problem: No, my solution is to treat it as a tragedy for the choice you've made. Either way you're damned in that situation. You've killed a man. Or on the topic, your unborn child. You get to then live with that. Ho hum, just go about my day? gently caress that. That's really callous to me. More grateful? No. But they should definitely be grateful that someone loved them enough to give them a home and a family. Do you consider miscarriages to be just an eye rolling inconvenience, or a tragedy? Why is it wrong for a father of a child to be distressed when it dies?
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Jan 22, 2015 22:58
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:Am I to understand that you personally do not like this development and would detest abortions involving less serious problems (I disagree with your argument but less us assume it is true) but would not seek a change in the laws to meet your moral standards? Yes, that's exactly right. It's the choice of the individual woman. I shouldn't have a say. I can still be sad about it. I think it's odd that more people don't feel this way, to be honest.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:00
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Talmonis posted:They're alive and can dream and think. Citation please? Remember, we're talking about all abortions here, not just 3rd trimester.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:09
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Trabisnikof posted:Citation please? Remember, we're talking about all abortions here, not just 3rd trimester. I've been talking about 2nd & 3rd. First is just an embryo.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:10
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Talmonis posted:I've been talking about 2nd & 3rd. First is just an embryo. Strange, that's not what you've been saying: quote:it's a great thing that yes, we can find out if the child would have some kind of horrible disease or mutation that would make it endure a short, painful life. Its legal and safe abortion, if the mother wanted it, would be a tragedy, but still a good thing. Also where's your proof that fetuses dream and think during the second trimester?
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Jan 22, 2015 23:12
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Talmonis posted:I've been talking about 2nd & 3rd. First is just an embryo. Time to start dropping some medical citations. We're at the point of the abortion thread where folks start making easily verifiable medical claims, so lets not just start throwing out unsupported assertions.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:17
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Talmonis posted:Yes, that's exactly right. It's the choice of the individual woman. I shouldn't have a say. I can still be sad about it. I think it's odd that more people don't feel this way, to be honest. It's not a tragedy. I will not feel bad at all if I ever get an abortion, and my mother certainly doesn't feel any regret for the abortion she had before I was born. Stop feeling sad for the fetuses. Feel happy that the women are able to have an abortion instead of being forced to give birth and care for a child. And stop trying to make us feel bad about it by calling it a tragedy. I don't care if that's not your intention, but that's how it works. Women keep hearing how awful abortions are, even from people that supposedly support it, and then get scared away from it when they otherwise wouldn't be. They should be giving birth because they want a child, not because people keep talking about how tragic it is for them to get an abortion.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:20
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Flowers posted:It's not a tragedy. I will not feel bad at all if I ever get an abortion, and my mother certainly doesn't feel any regret for the abortion she had before I was born. Not to mention the MILLIONS (if not billions) of children in desperate need of shelter and food, we're not hurting by having a few less born when we can't even take care of the ones we have as a society.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:21
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Trabisnikof posted:Strange, that's not what you've been saying: Errr, a lot of those tests are done well after the first trimester. Checking for undeveloped or malformed lungs, brain, bowel, etc. My wife is currently in the (admittedly late) second trimester. My son wakes up like clockwork after meals and kicks the poo poo out of her. I've watched a sonogram of him when he got the hiccups. I've seen him sleep, and dreamily twitch in it. So yeah, it's not the full documented and confirmed thesis you may want, but it's good enough for me to see he's alive, valuable and not just some kind of tumor with eyes and a face. So foolish I am, apparently for not writing a documented thesis about it first. Edit: Ah, so yes. Tumor with eyes to you lot. Got it.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:21
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Talmonis posted:My wife is currently in the (admittedly late) second trimester. My son wakes up like clockwork after meals and kicks the poo poo out of her. I've watched a sonogram of him when he got the hiccups. I've seen him sleep, and dreamily twitch in it. So yeah, it's not the full documented and confirmed thesis you may want, but it's good enough for me to see he's alive, valuable and not just some kind of tumor with eyes and a face. So foolish I am, apparently for not writing a documented thesis about it first Braindead people do this too, as well as people in a vegetative state. This is a poor appeal to emotion fallacy.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:22
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Flowers posted:It's not a tragedy. I will not feel bad at all if I ever get an abortion, and my mother certainly doesn't feel any regret for the abortion she had before I was born. This. Forcing a woman to have a child she doesn't want/ can't care for, even if it is by saying "You can have an abortion, but it's awful and I will look down on it" is a bad thing. EDIT: Like seriously, does it matter a single bit if you disagree with it? Do you go around telling gay people "You can get married, but I think it's gross and icky?"
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Jan 22, 2015 23:22
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Talmonis posted:My wife is currently in the (admittedly late) second trimester. My son wakes up like clockwork after meals and kicks the poo poo out of her. I've watched a sonogram of him when he got the hiccups. I've seen him sleep, and dreamily twitch in it. So yeah, it's not the full documented and confirmed thesis you may want, but it's good enough for me to see he's alive, valuable and not just some kind of tumor with eyes and a face. So foolish I am, apparently for not writing a documented thesis about it first. No, you're foolish because you don't know what you're talking about, have interpreted your observations in the way that serves your interest, and fully admit that you have nothing to back it up. That's wonderful for, but your hopes and dreams aren't a good basis for legislation.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:23
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Talmonis posted:Edit: Ah, so yes. Tumor with eyes to you lot. Got it. Prove us wrong.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:25
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Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when a fetus falls into an open sewer and dies.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:27
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Bob James posted:Comedy is when a fetus falls into an open sewer and dies. It would probably be dead before falling into the open sewer, as it would no longer be a fetus if it could be viable outside the womb.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:29
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The woman falls too.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:30
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Bob James posted:The woman falls too. Ooooh, Okay, we're golden.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:37
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Roe v Wade turns 42 today, so that's why the march is today.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:41
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borkencode posted:Roe v Wade turns 42 today, so that's why the march is today. I thought pro-life people didn't agree with abortions for any reason? Why are they trying to
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Jan 22, 2015 23:47
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Talmonis posted:I don't look down on people who get abortions. I pity them. I feel sorry for what they did. Sad for the life lost before it had a chance. Most of them don't want your pity. Many people don't want to be pitied. It's a rather paternal view. Pitying someone suggests they are a victim. If you pity someone for a choice they made, that implies they are a victim of their own choice, which is pretty hosed up. quote:Sure it's sappy and internet uncool to have an emotional attachment to anything, but there it is. Nice strawman. Not sure if you've read my other posts, but if you did you wouldn't come to the conclusion that I'm arguing from that vantage point. quote:No, my solution is to treat it as a tragedy for the choice you've made. Either way you're damned in that situation. You've killed a man. Or on the topic, your unborn child. You get to then live with that. Ho hum, just go about my day? gently caress that. That's really callous to me. quote:More grateful? No. But they should definitely be grateful that someone loved them enough to give them a home and a family. quote:Do you consider miscarriages to be just an eye rolling inconvenience, or a tragedy? If a family had been trying very hard to have a baby and wanted one very badly and then the baby miscarried, it would be a tragedy, just as if a family who had been trying very hard to adopt suddenly found their case rejected. In both cases there's been a huge emotional and financial investment and a lot of hopes and expectations that are suddenly dashed. It's always a tragedy when you're anticipating something wonderful and then it gets taken away. In that sense it can be tragic when a woman aborts a fetus with a developmental issue because her expectations are dashed, but it's not a tragedy because she chose abortion. In fact, I would say, going back to your comment on the trolley problem, the point that the sequence of events becomes emotionally distressing is the one where the expecting parents learn that the baby will be a harlequin fetus (or whatever is wrong with it). That's the moment where their future plans have been derailed. The abortion itself is not the cause of distress. Not to mention the word tragedy is pretty loaded and implies a uniquely bad thing that dogs you forever. If you abort a downs baby it's definitely an emotionally fraught time if you were highly anticipating the arrival of a healthy child, but if you manage to have a healthy baby after, I doubt you're going to think of aborting the downs baby as this touchstone moment in your life. quote:Why is it wrong for a father of a child to be distressed when it dies? What I want is for people who think getting an abortion is a morally bad choice and that those who had abortions require pity to be quiet about their beliefs so that women aren't further shamed for being female and having things that happen to human women happen to them.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:53
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Talmonis posted:Errr, a lot of those tests are done well after the first trimester. Checking for undeveloped or malformed lungs, brain, bowel, etc. im glad your singular, unique experience with impending fatherhood has touched you deeply and profoundly but it turns out many other people have had this same experience, myself included, and my now birthed child is still basically a tumor with eyes that i love very much once you start making emotional appeals you've lost bro
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Jan 22, 2015 23:57
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