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Literally The Worst posted:The thing that makes it work is that in between that venting there's some really well done characters and tight plotting. There really, really isn't.
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Feb 19, 2015 04:34
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Two pages of the same two people going "I like this book." "That book sucks." "You're wrong, it is good." "NOPE. poo poo." "Dummy it's good." "You're dummy, sucks." "No u" "No u" "NO U" sure is a fruitful discussion LTW you're giving some real fast bulletpoints about how you like The Boys, but I beg both of you, at least pretend to care enough about something you care enough to post about to you know, support your opinions sometimes.
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Feb 19, 2015 04:37
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Literally The Worst posted:Within the last two years and they just announced another one. Seemed longer.
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Feb 19, 2015 04:44
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This was a bad idea
BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 04:52
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Literally The Worst posted:This was a bad idea Would you say it was literally the worst idea?
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Feb 19, 2015 06:57
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KaosMachina posted:Would you say it was literally the worst idea? Boo-urns
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Feb 19, 2015 07:21
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Besides reading a bunch of New 52 first issues and the first two Batman arcs (Owls was fantastic) I've read pretty much no DC (not embracing codes with paper copies didn't exactly endear them to me). I take it that this new event is as good a time as any to try reading DC comics again (even with my knowledge really just extending to some Bats and Superman)?Deadpool posted:Well drat, DC might have more than a handful of books worth reading again. Wait, isn't not really paying attention to continuity what lead DC into the headaches they had in the 1970s and 1980s that lead to them doing Infinite Crisis or whatever it was titled (I will flat out admit my DC knowledge base sucks).
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Feb 19, 2015 16:36
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Wonder Woman is pretty uneven, there are some great moments here and there (like the bit with the Amazon men) but it feels directionless and the art is all over the place. I think it is pretty even, that doesn't mean it's good though. They made her cry again. I really don't like seeing my super heroes cry every issue. I can't believe I'm saying this because Wonder Woman is my favorite hero but I'm not going to read Wonder Woman anymore.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:03
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gfanikf posted:Wait, isn't not really paying attention to continuity what lead DC into the headaches they had in the 1970s and 1980s that lead to them doing Infinite Crisis or whatever it was titled (I will flat out admit my DC knowledge base sucks). Supposidly, they did it because there was too much continuity. You should read this.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:09
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gfanikf posted:Wait, isn't not really paying attention to continuity what lead DC into the headaches they had in the 1970s and 1980s that lead to them doing Infinite Crisis or whatever it was titled (I will flat out admit my DC knowledge base sucks). Like look at Batman Eternal for example. Barbara got a new costume and the writers said that only happened after Eternal ended, along with moving to Burnside. However she's had that costume on in Eternal since issue 36, even though it logically shouldn't exist yet because Barbara's normal costume was destroyed in an accidental fire and she made the new one afterward. Or even right now with the current issue that came out this week. Ra's mentions being falling into a ravine in Nanda Parbat, which happened in Robin Rises. That means Snyder and co are saying Eternal is happening after that arc in Batman and Robin. Then where the hell is Damian in all of this? He hasn't been mentioned as being alive and he hasn't shown up anywhere at all! They can explain away Dick being involved because of Spyral, but Damian should logically be in the book if Eternal is taking place after he came back to life. And it's not just Batbooks. In Action Comics and Supergirl, Superman has a beard right now. No other comic he's been popping up in has him with that beard. Harley Quinn hung out with Power Girl, even though PG should be already on Earth-2. Lets not even get into DC's indecision about whether or not there was a Teen Titans group before the current one because a bunch of writers refer to Dick as being a Titan even though that logically shouldn't be. Point is this: DC can't be half-assed to keep a stable competent continuity going on and so as long as they're willing to acknowledge that and just say "we don't care", then I'm fine with that. As long they make good books that keep the focus on making good stories worth the money you pay for them, I'll live.
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Feb 19, 2015 17:34
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Eh, I guess I'm fine with that if only because I don't read a ton (well actually zero since 2013) of DC, so the less concerned I have to be about the DC universe, the better. But in a modern comic age where cross overs and events are a huge part of things...is it really an tenable position for DC to have? That said if the books can retain internally consistent I'm fine with it, though it sucks you can't do a Hickman like run with two or three titles at once. But I'd be lying to say I expect to stray beyond the big two...I just know so little about the other parts of DC except they sometimes work as the JLA and that's only from reading the Death of Superman trade as a kid. lol
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Feb 19, 2015 18:29
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The Goon posted:It's like you're a psychic. Can you get me next week's lotto numbers as well? This sounds like a perfect fast-track project to go alongside Fox's GOTHAM! Realtalk: Since NU52 was a last minute dash to keep Warner from shutting down the comics publishing thing that DC does, it's no small surprise that the continuity was bonered from day one. Now they can go back and say a Brainiac did it to excuse all the fuckups. DC just doesn't have the editorial might to make sure their poo poo's in line. And their experiment with an Ultimateized line (All-Star, then Earth One) have been uneven and way too spaced out to be worthwhile. Basically, trying to give comics a coherency akin to someone's life is a fool's errand. Better to treat it as a Soap Opera style stumble into newer, more shocking, developments.
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Feb 19, 2015 20:37
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Wait why was Warners going to shut down DC or just fold them into a Warner Books or something?
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Feb 19, 2015 20:55
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gfanikf posted:Wait why was Warners going to shut down DC or just fold them into a Warner Books or something? Because comics don't make money anymore for a number of reasons including clinging to the shambling corpse of print media, specialty shops and letting one company monopolize product shipping. SirDan3k fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 21:15
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I don't remember it being a literal cancellation of the entire line, it was more "the whole Entertainment division is restructuring and we're moving everyone to Burbank and remind us why we shouldn't just completely replace the upper management of the comics division considering how you guys are kind of underperforming". Dan Didio, Bob Harras, Bob Wayne, etc. almost definitely had their asses on the line, and bringing in new people certainly would have changed the company, but I don't remember any talk of them getting shuttered. The only time (outside of like the mid 1970s when the entire industry was on shaky ground and Warner originally bought out National) that I remember there being any credible talk of more or less shuttering DC Comics was during the AOL/Time Warner/Turner mergers circa 2000 and Ted Turner gave a big pitch about how the DC superheroes should be 'given' to Turner since they do a good job of keeping iconic cartoon characters (Looney Tunes, Scooby Doo, etc.) as evergreen properties than DC has done with Batman/Superman/etc. so hand them over. This obviously did not happen.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:22
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Edge & Christian posted:I don't remember it being a literal cancellation of the entire line, it was more "the whole Entertainment division is restructuring and we're moving everyone to Burbank and remind us why we shouldn't just completely replace the upper management of the comics division considering how you guys are kind of underperforming". Dan Didio, Bob Harras, Bob Wayne, etc. almost definitely had their asses on the line, and bringing in new people certainly would have changed the company, but I don't remember any talk of them getting shuttered. If Jim Shooter is to be believed (and maybe he isn't), things were bad enough in the early 80s that Warner considered licensing out all of DC's characters to Marvel.
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Feb 20, 2015 05:03
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There was one point where Bob Wayne told us at a summit that they were very close to all being fired and the DC characters handed off to Time Warner Books. He then followed up with how funny it was that they sold off that division a year or two later and hahaha all those people were the one's who were out of jobs. I kind of dislike Bob Wayne.
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Feb 20, 2015 07:55
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Rhyno posted:There was one point where Bob Wayne told us at a summit that they were very close to all being fired and the DC characters handed off to Time Warner Books. He then followed up with how funny it was that they sold off that division a year or two later and hahaha all those people were the one's who were out of jobs. Well of course he's a dick, Bob Wayne sound suspiciously like Bob Kane.
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Feb 20, 2015 08:01
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WickedHate posted:Well of course he's a dick, Bob Wayne sound suspiciously like Bob Kane. Oh. My. GOD.
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Feb 20, 2015 08:09
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I mean plus, when has there ever been a good Wayne? Ick.
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Feb 20, 2015 08:47
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Rhyno posted:Oh. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THEM IN THE SAME ROOM AT THE SAME TIME?
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Feb 20, 2015 08:57
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Hey. Good news for Prez. Didio is saying that DC are committing to at least twelve issues for each of the new ongoings. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/02/19/best-stories-become-canon-dan-didio-jim-lee-comicspro/
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Feb 20, 2015 14:12
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quote:DiDio said that Prez reminds him of a title from his early days at DC, Kyle Baker’s Plastic Man. Which may not have lasted long but was a real creative high point. And you still have not released the third collected volume of it you poo poo.
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Feb 20, 2015 14:26
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FoneBone posted:If Jim Shooter is to be believed (and maybe he isn't), things were bad enough in the early 80s that Warner considered licensing out all of DC's characters to Marvel. Yeah, Sean Howe discusses it in his book on Marvel. It was apparently a thing along the lines that Shooter discusses.
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Feb 20, 2015 15:14
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ZDar Fan posted:Now I really want a comic that's the 70's Incredible Hulk show, but with Superman. drat. So, a comic version of the old Shazam series? Gaz-L posted:Braniac found the DC vs MK universe and decided that was the prime continuity. Captain Marvel is better handled in that game than in the DC-centric Injustice - I'd be OK with this. Genetic Toaster posted:Also, while Ryo was Ryu but orange they played nothing alike each other, so when Capcom made Dan SNK retaliated by putting Yuri, who had an identical moveset to Ryu, in AoF2. Yuri wasn't that close to Ryu in AoF2, but since KoF96 she's gotten into the habit of taking on a move or two from the SF Ansatsuken arsenal, and then dropping it a game or two later as if they're not worth it - a much subtler parody than Dan's IMO.
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Feb 20, 2015 18:53
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Teenage Fansub posted:Hey. Good news for Prez. Didio is saying that DC are committing to at least twelve issues for each of the new ongoings. Sounds like someone has replaced Didio with a human being.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:05
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I hated last month's Red Lanterns, but I just saw a preview of this week's... You got me. e: How were the Tangent comics? They're slowly adding them on Comixology. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Feb 25, 2015 |
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Feb 25, 2015 01:21
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Sinestro is a book I like a lot even though it's not very substantial and its greatest strength is having a character I like. Thank you all for listening. Semper Fudge fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 25, 2015 |
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Feb 25, 2015 18:11
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Teenage Fansub posted:e: How were the Tangent comics? They're slowly adding them on Comixology. Meh. Not really memorable at all.
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Feb 25, 2015 18:40
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Teenage Fansub posted:e: How were the Tangent comics? They're slowly adding them on Comixology.
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Feb 25, 2015 19:05
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SirDan3k posted:He's smart enough to not come out and say one way or another but has repeatedly expressed that he doesn't get the appeal and wishes he could sell his spy, western and war stories without having to put a superhero hook in them. I do to. I think it's not so much individual superheroes as the culture of superheros that Ennis dislikes, and there were parts of The Boys that commented on this fantastically. Take, for example, his thinly veiled attack on Judd Winnick's run on Green Lantern, “Get Some,” (The Boys, #7-10) murder mystery in which a young gay man is found murdered, tossed off the roof of his apartment. The story examines in generous depth the reactions of a somewhat average straight guy to the homosexual community, as well as the sheer folly that comes in trying to label someone as gay or straight without bothering to try and get to know them. Issue 8 starts with Hughie reading a “Swingwing” comic, the titular character being a pastiche of DC's Nightwing. The comic's plot is almost exactly the same as Winick's famous “gay roommate” story arc in Green Lantern ("Hate Crime," in which Terry Berg is attacked, Rayner nearly kills the people responsible, but doesn't want to sink to their level, and then fucks off to space because he feels guilty about what happened to Berg) Hughie's dialog in the scene seems directly pointed at the original author: “An' then later on the kid gets queerbashed, right? An' Swingwing goes after the guys and knocks the gently caress outta them... I mean, in what weird fuckin' parallel universe has anything like this ever happened to anyone, would you tell me? ... I just think this is really stupid. I mean gay fellas do get beaten up, there are these fuckers going around doing it – an' here's this shite sayin' not to worry, there's a superhero on the way...” Butcher replies, “Well, that's the whole point a' supes, innit? Somethin' complicated, you make it simple. You make it somethin' you can hit, or else you just ignore it.” Which is certainly one way to describe the effects of superheroes on the community. How many superheroes have stopped violence in our communities? How many of those prayers (in one reading) have actually been answered by an acrobat or a martial artist swinging in to the rescue? The treatment of the issue may as well have been "painter gets beaten by villain who hates paintings" or "teacher attacked by villain who hates educators" for all it says about the homosexuality. Whereas Ennis bothers to talk about it a ton before sabotaging the guys jetpack and killing him, but still leaving everyone depressed because nothing was really solved and even if the killer is dead, so is the victim. Superman the aspirational figure -- the benevolent alien who teaches us to be better than we are, who functions as almost a secular Jesus in some readings -- one can use as a role model for self-improvement, is a character Ennis doesn't belittle or tear down. Batman, on the other hand, the super rich guy who spends his time hunting down poor people rather than using his money to improve the lot of others? Nah, Ennis doesn't have any time for that power fantasy. He already tore it to shreds in Punisher, where all of Frank's work doesn't mean a drat thing in the long run, and Frank himself is shown to be a complete monster. I don't think there's any 3rd dimensional chess going on here; he likes certain characters and stories, and hates others, just like the rest of us. (NB I own a poo poo ton of Batman comics, and love the character to death, but I do occasionally have moments like this) The Boys is full of moments like that, and that's why I enjoyed it a lot. Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Feb 25, 2015 |
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Feb 25, 2015 21:39
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superheroes" chest tattoo.
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Again, falls apart, considering The Pro has a page-long rant about how the virtue of the Superman analogue and the notion of hope and symbolism is bullshit and what's really needed is the SAS slitting the throats of Al Qaeda and waterboarding terrorists. (And yes, I know that was even broader satire than his other work, but the joke at that point is how useless the heroes are compared to the trigger happy HOORAH SWAT guys) Or the knots he tied himself into when Spider-Man and Daredevil appear in his MK Punisher run, to show that their ways are dumb and they're just naive dilettantes. All in all, he comes off to me as the guy who refuses to watch Star Trek because the notion of a world without racism is 'unrealistic'.
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Feb 25, 2015 21:50
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Toph Bei Fong posted:I think it's not so much individual superheroes as the culture of superheros that Ennis dislikes, and there were parts of The Boys that commented on this fantastically. Take, for example, his thinly veiled attack on Judd Winnick's run on Green Lantern, “Get Some,” (The Boys, #7-10) murder mystery in which a young gay man is found murdered, tossed off the roof of his apartment. The story examines in generous depth the reactions of a somewhat average straight guy to the homosexual community, as well as the sheer folly that comes in trying to label someone as gay or straight without bothering to try and get to know them. Issue 8 starts with Hughie reading a “Swingwing” comic, the titular character being a pastiche of DC's Nightwing. The comic's plot is almost exactly the same as Winick's famous “gay roommate” story arc in Green Lantern ("Hate Crime," in which Terry Berg is attacked, Rayner nearly kills the people responsible, but doesn't want to sink to their level, and then fucks off to space because he feels guilty about what happened to Berg) That sounds like someone who says "well actually" but the point he is making isn't actually anything substantive but just him trying to be the smartest person in the room so he can be smug. Which I think describes the Boys to a tee.
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Feb 25, 2015 22:08
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Not to really derail this thread that much but... Yes when it comes to crime and the overall effects of it, largely the only way to deal with crime is with the investment of money and resources into education, health care, social amenities and so on. And there is a valid argument that the vast majority of criminals aren't inherently bad people. I have met and worked with many people accused of crimes and the vast majority are people who don't want to commit crimes and just need chances and help to overcome their disadvantages. On the flip side some are just bellends of the highest order. And you wouldn't shed any tears over hearing that they've been hospitalised by Moon Knight. And furthermore, while it's all well and good to have sympathy/empathy for criminals, a lot of the time the victims of crime don't feel that way. And understandably so, if you have been mugged, you aren't really going to care about the sad backstory of the guy who did it to you. And that's really where Batman comes from. He's not a person who lost his parents due to unfair economic distribution. He watched his parents get brutally and pointlessly gunned down by a random criminal in a corrupt city that protects their own. He has all the rage of someone who is the victim of crime and channels that rage to ensure that no one ever has to go through what he did, and break the corruption.
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Feb 25, 2015 23:09
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Superman the aspirational figure -- the benevolent alien who teaches us to be better than we are, who functions as almost a secular Jesus in some readings -- one can use as a role model for self-improvement, is a character Ennis doesn't belittle or tear down. Batman, on the other hand, the super rich guy who spends his time hunting down poor people rather than using his money to improve the lot of others? Nah, Ennis doesn't have any time for that power fantasy. He already tore it to shreds in Punisher, where all of Frank's work doesn't mean a drat thing in the long run, and Frank himself is shown to be a complete monster. I don't think there's any 3rd dimensional chess going on here; he likes certain characters and stories, and hates others, just like the rest of us. (NB I own a poo poo ton of Batman comics, and love the character to death, but I do occasionally have moments like this) Well, I hope that's not his take on Batman, since Bruce Wayne actually does quite a bit in the comics to help the community, it just either gets hosed over by some corrupt mobster/beaurocrat or a psychotic mastermind anarchist, at which point Batman comes out. You could argue the money he throws at being Batman could be used elsewhere, but that kinda ignores the fact that no person could afford to be their own one-man personal army and Bruce's limitless resources are just as much fantasy as Superman's ability to fly. But then, Ennis strikes me very much as someone who takes something complicated and makes it simple.
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Feb 25, 2015 23:18
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CharlestheHammer posted:That sounds like someone who says "well actually" but the point he is making isn't actually anything substantive but just him trying to be the smartest person in the room so he can be smug. How is that not actually of substance?
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Feb 25, 2015 23:26
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A Gnarlacious Bro posted:How is that not actually of substance? It's basically going "OH BUT THE REAL WORLD DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT SILLY LESSER WRITER" Which is kind of pointless considering he's talking about a power fantasy/adventure story? I could write a story talking about how laser swords and psychic powers don't topple REAL governments the way they do in Star Wars, but I'm not actually saying anything there, I'm just scoring points by tearing down something else that isn't even trying to say what I'm accusing it of.
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Feb 25, 2015 23:29
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OK I get that. I guess as somebody who rarely reads superhero stuff it sounds like a perfectly valid point of view, especially on the placating nature of power fantasies, but I just remembered how annoying Preacher was so I'll not fight about it. I guess I would say that a critique of a power fantasy is just as substantive as the story it's self, though I think Ellis writing is far too indulgent of his own tastes to throw to many stones. A Gnarlacious Bro fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Feb 25, 2015 |
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Feb 25, 2015 23:37
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Gaz-L posted:It's basically going "OH BUT THE REAL WORLD DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT SILLY LESSER WRITER" Which is kind of pointless considering he's talking about a power fantasy/adventure story? I think the real problem is that it tries to condemn comic book superheroes for not making wide sweeping changes and just focusing on things they can punch, when it's been shown multiple times that yeah, Superman COULD go save the world, but then you get Injustice. People who talk about how Batman should be investing money into aiding the poor are people who don't want to like comics, they want to be able to easily tear down something other people should like. Because it proves they don't actually read those comics. Batman as Bruce Wayne is a philanthropist who gives away more money each year to aid his city and cities around the world than some countries make. Then he dresses up at night and beats psychopaths, the people keeping that money from going where it needs to, and all kinds of corruption he can't face down in any way besides 'punched by a hero'. It's basically the same as someone who goes 'well why doesn't superman just kill Lex Luthor, he's killed thousands of people, superman is clearly at fault for these deaths and a murderer by proxy'. Ennis wants to be the edgy intellectual guy in the room who can be smug about how if he was the one in charge, all super heroes would be violent psychopathic murderous brutes, because that's more 'realistic'.
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Feb 25, 2015 23:46
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Probably Magic posted:Well, I hope that's not his take on Batman, since Bruce Wayne actually does quite a bit in the comics to help the community, it just either gets hosed over by some corrupt mobster/beaurocrat or a psychotic mastermind anarchist, at which point Batman comes out. You could argue the money he throws at being Batman could be used elsewhere, but that kinda ignores the fact that no person could afford to be their own one-man personal army and Bruce's limitless resources are just as much fantasy as Superman's ability to fly. And I prefer the community oriented depiction of Batman also, for the same reasons that I dislike the "I'm going to walk across the country being a sanctimonious jerk to everybody" Superman. Gaz-L posted:It's basically going "OH BUT THE REAL WORLD DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT SILLY LESSER WRITER" Which is kind of pointless considering he's talking about a power fantasy/adventure story? The objection, I think, comes from treating the power fantasy/adventure story as if it made the world a better place with its proposed solutions. Which, again, is even more damning when the issue is treated as mere window dressing, rather than a topic to be explored and engaged with (as Winnick did very well in Pedro and Me, and better after that story, when Rayner and Berg move in together). To use an analogy, a comic like Ms. Marvel does a much better job of what it's trying to do by depicting Kamala Khan as a human being, living in Jersey, with her family and friends, and showing what her life is like, than a story about Carol Danvers beating up some guys who beat up a friend of hers who happened to be a Pakistani-American Muslim. I'm not against power fantasies, but I can see where Ennis is coming from.
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Feb 25, 2015 23:48
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