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You haven't watched Gurren Lagann, have you?
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Apr 30, 2015 05:03
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Regalingualius posted:You haven't watched Gurren Lagann, have you? Oh, I completely appreciate the connection, I just don't think it was added in to the PS2 game because of TTGL. (Full disclosure: EVA is interesting and unique, but I think Gurren Lagann is my favorite anime I've ever seen.)
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Apr 30, 2015 05:06
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Haven't checked in with this show since I watched it back in high school. For awhile I thought fans had cracked some vague hints in the show, but it's a PS2 game instead. FAR and all that seem pretty accepted here, but how does it reconcile with them being in the show all of... 0 times? Most of that stuff actually makes enough sense. It basically puts words in what the mysteries in Eva are but its only chewing gum for canon spergs Eva 3.0 is the new hotness. Shi hi torture has reached a whole new level, impacts are off the charts, and it's a big ol' Evangelion good time, by which I mean it's a huge bummer with awesome psychedelic apocalyptic iconography and an essay on human misery brought on my dogged pursuit of the divine.
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Apr 30, 2015 05:21
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Haven't checked in with this show since I watched it back in high school. For awhile I thought fans had cracked some vague hints in the show, but it's a PS2 game instead. FAR and all that seem pretty accepted here, but how does it reconcile with them being in the show all of... 0 times? In the flashback episode when Gendo takes Fuyutsuki into the Geofront they say it's ancient but it isn't man made. It's a vague insinuation and the FAR aren't the focus but they're not meant to be.
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Apr 30, 2015 09:37
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Szmitten posted:In the flashback episode when Gendo takes Fuyutsuki into the Geofront they say it's ancient but it isn't man made. It's a vague insinuation and the FAR aren't the focus but they're not meant to be. That has nothing to do with FAR, the black/white moons were the vessels for adam/lilith to come to Earth. There's no mention of their origins in the series, and IMO it's better that way.
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Apr 30, 2015 12:46
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Zartosht posted:That has nothing to do with FAR, the black/white moons were the vessels for adam/lilith to come to Earth. There's no mention of their origins in the series, and IMO it's better that way.
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Apr 30, 2015 13:39
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Trying to actualize religious and apocalyptic horror themes into "it was aliens and they came to earths in their spaceships" was dumb as hell
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Apr 30, 2015 13:43
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hope and vaseline posted:Trying to actualize religious and apocalyptic horror themes into "it was aliens and they came to earths in their spaceships" was dumb as hell
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Apr 30, 2015 13:45
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Evangelion is much better when everything is vague and undefined, all that FAR poo poo sounds like something out of Star Trek or, even worse, Mass Effect.
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Apr 30, 2015 13:48
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hope and vaseline posted:Trying to actualize religious and apocalyptic horror themes into "it was aliens and they came to earths in their spaceships" was dumb as hell
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Apr 30, 2015 16:16
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It is better undefined. And it is undefined in the show. But the games and multi-issue binders of information with "The TRUTH of Evangelion" that they're trying to sell are based on what Anno gave them. It's all ignorable, but if someone asks "What the fucks up with this thing" there's usually an explanation there (that kills the mystery too).
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Apr 30, 2015 17:52
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The mystery is more important anyways since like half the point of Evangelion is facing life and trying to move forward despite uncertainty and ambiguity.
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Apr 30, 2015 18:09
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Szmitten posted:It is better undefined. And it is undefined in the show. But the games and multi-issue binders of information with "The TRUTH of Evangelion" that they're trying to sell are based on what Anno gave them. It's all ignorable, but if someone asks "What the fucks up with this thing" there's usually an explanation there (that kills the mystery too). I don't doubt that Anno had a detailed backstory in mind for a lot of what appears on screen, and I'd argue that it's even important that he did. The author needs to have something that glues together what he's actually showing on screen in order for it not to feel like he's just making poo poo up as he goes. But, it should stay in his head, because the actual work benefits from the mystery surrounding the seemingly divine invasion of earth. It actually kind of makes me think of Carnivale, where after the show was cancelled the producer released his giant 6-season plan that showed all these complicated lineages and rules for the magical powers people and it honestly kinda sucked all the fun and mystery out of the show. On screen everything was mysterious bordering on religious, and then his notes basically turned it into "no, it's p much just magical family trees of magic users".
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Apr 30, 2015 19:29
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Anno had a detailed and elaborate backstory for Evangelion in mind during production and it changed every couple of episodes  e: at one point the evas were Nausicaa-style ancient relics instead of something modern humans built, SEELE didn't even exist until like halfway into the show, Fuyutsuki was younger than Gendo in early drafts, etc.
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Apr 30, 2015 19:39
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gently caress The Video Game
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Apr 30, 2015 19:46
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one of the best things about the Rebuilds is that they gently caress with all the signifiers so that nothing is certain again, so you have to just look at what you're seeing and try to make sense of it
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Apr 30, 2015 19:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:SEELE didn't even exist until like halfway into the show Wait, are you talking about the show itself or just production? Because I totally remember Gendo chatting with SEELE after Shinji kills his first angel way near the beginning. Granted, they were just old dudes in odd color filters rather than the iconic creepy monoliths, but they were still there. Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 21:42
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Spiritus Nox posted:Wait, are you talking about the show itself or just production? Because I totally remember Gendo chatting with SEELE after Shinji kills his first angel. Granted, they were just old dudes in odd color filters rather than creepy monoliths, but they were still there. sorry, in production, yeah. although there's a lot to suggest that their concept wasn't finalized until much later, given stuff like them referring to Unit-01 as "that toy" in their first appearance, the lack of monoliths, the seemingly contradictory information in the director's cut, and all the vagueness about what they want from instrumentality Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Apr 30, 2015 |
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Apr 30, 2015 21:52
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They just wanted to recreate their favorite Cordwainer Smith novels, lost during the Second Impact. A noble goal.
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May 1, 2015 00:08
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Didn't Anno admit that all the judeo-christian symbolism was just window dressing? Like I'm sure I saw a quote ages back where he straight up said he used all that stuff because he felt it was under-utilised in sci-fi. To me it's like Stargate; none of the mythological stuff is legit divine and there's an explanation for everything, even the stuff that never gets explained.
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May 1, 2015 08:29
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sinking belle posted:Didn't Anno admit that all the judeo-christian symbolism was just window dressing? Like I'm sure I saw a quote ages back where he straight up said he used all that stuff because he felt it was under-utilised in sci-fi. To me it's like Stargate; none of the mythological stuff is legit divine and there's an explanation for everything, even the stuff that never gets explained. They said that but it actually hold up pretty well to scrutiny and kinda blends in with the Eschatology. It's prolly a thing they said cause they don't want to [strike]deal with Catholics[/strike] be raided by the Spanish Inquisition. I remember in particular that the angels' names are not just random letters with -el at the end, stuff like that.
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May 1, 2015 08:51
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Yeah, by the end of the series, the symbolism, Angel names and so on are all pretty clever. They had to have been paying attention to the stuff they were drawing from, or otherwise it's one hell of a series of happy coincidences for things like Kaworu being Tabris the Angel of Free Will, Armisael being associated with pregnancy (and all the imagery in its interactions with Rei and Unit-00), Arael is the Angel of light and birds, Zereul is the 'arm of God'...
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May 1, 2015 09:03
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I always read it as like they attached the names and imagery to the appropriate subject, but that was more just to make it look cool rather than actually for it's symbolic meaning. It was symbolism for the sake of having cool symbolism, not to communicate something.
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May 1, 2015 09:10
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sinking belle posted:Didn't Anno admit that all the judeo-christian symbolism was just window dressing? Like I'm sure I saw a quote ages back where he straight up said he used all that stuff because he felt it was under-utilised in sci-fi. To me it's like Stargate; none of the mythological stuff is legit divine and there's an explanation for everything, even the stuff that never gets explained.
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May 1, 2015 09:43
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sinking belle posted:Didn't Anno admit that all the judeo-christian symbolism was just window dressing? Like I'm sure I saw a quote ages back where he straight up said he used all that stuff because he felt it was under-utilised in sci-fi. To me it's like Stargate; none of the mythological stuff is legit divine and there's an explanation for everything, even the stuff that never gets explained. no, actually, he didn't there's an interview where Sadamoto mentions that he's not sure what anno meant by it, which is probably where that whole myth came from
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May 1, 2015 10:19
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Milky Moor posted:Yeah, by the end of the series, the symbolism, Angel names and so on are all pretty clever. They had to have been paying attention to the stuff they were drawing from, or otherwise it's one hell of a series of happy coincidences for things like Kaworu being Tabris the Angel of Free Will, Armisael being associated with pregnancy (and all the imagery in its interactions with Rei and Unit-00), Arael is the Angel of light and birds, Zereul is the 'arm of God'... All this angel crap is apocryphal bible fan fiction anyways so it's not like they're being sacrilegious.
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May 1, 2015 12:39
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They said that they didn't have a "specific Christian meaning" or something along those lines when it came to the religious symbolism, not that it was meaningless. I just took that to mean they weren't making a comment on contemporary Christianity. Like Misato having a necklace of a cross isn't a comment on Jesus, but just a visual representation of the sacrifice (A concept very related to Jesus) that a) her father made for her, and b) the sacrifice she herself would make to save Shinji in EoE. I feel like most of the religious symbolism can be read in a similar way, where it is abstracted somewhat to be about a broader theme from the religious stories they originate from, but not about Jesus or the Christian God or anyone else from the Bible directly. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 15:31 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 15:27
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Raxivace posted:They said that they didn't have a "specific Christian meaning" or something along those lines when it came to the religious symbolism, not that it was meaningless. Yeah, a lot of Christian imagery has other associations on our culture now. I actually had to explain this to my fundie grandma last week. My brother is an atheist, but a lot of his music talks about God and it was really hard to get through to her that "God" in the poetic sense can represent anything from "luck" to "providence" to "whatever order there is to the universe outside myself" to simply "talking to a wall because I feel remorse and I need something to forgive me". It would be even easier, I would think, for a Japanese director to use Christian imagery this way. Japan doesn't have a long history with the religion and it's still not very established over there, so much of his initial exposure to western Christian themes would have been through their use as allegory in our media. He probably only learned about the more mystical religious aspects of it as he started to research bits and pieces he wanted to include in the show.
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May 1, 2015 15:40
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I don't doubt that Anno had a detailed backstory in mind for a lot of what appears on screen, and I'd argue that it's even important that he did. The author needs to have something that glues together what he's actually showing on screen in order for it not to feel like he's just making poo poo up as he goes. I've got news for you, son. Raxivace posted:They said that they didn't have a "specific Christian meaning" or something along those lines when it came to the religious symbolism, not that it was meaningless. It might be easier to tie Christianity to Eva's comments on Japanese culture. I was going to compare it to Aum but the Western stuff was there long before production started. Perhaps it's more to do with the more personal ethos of Christianity over Japanese social religion? And the crosses are most associated with the alien invaders...
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May 1, 2015 16:01
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Raxivace posted:They said that they didn't have a "specific Christian meaning" or something along those lines when it came to the religious symbolism, not that it was meaningless. I think even saying that the cross represents sacrifice in Evangelion is giving a bit too much credit; the cross is certainly a recurring visual motif in NGE, and it appears so often that it definitely is intended to be interpreted as being sacrificial in some scenes, but I still think that's influenced by a having a westerners perspective. Eva generally appropriates the imagery and takes them to mean something internal within itself. Sometimes those ideas overlap.
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May 1, 2015 16:12
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Raxivace posted:I just took that to mean they weren't making a comment on contemporary Christianity. Like Misato having a necklace of a cross isn't a comment on Jesus, but just a visual representation of the sacrifice (A concept very related to Jesus) Misato's cross actually has nothing to do with Christianity. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-Armed_Cross
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May 1, 2015 17:17
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Misato's cross actually has nothing to do with Christianity. Interesting. I wasn't aware of this. I don't think it changes too much of my reading of Misato, but I'll have to tweak it somewhat. EDIT: Actually this page mentions that that form of Cross was used in Christianity at one point as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross_variants I'll have to read some more about this later tonight. Szmitten posted:I think even saying that the cross represents sacrifice in Evangelion is giving a bit too much credit; the cross is certainly a recurring visual motif in NGE, and it appears so often that it definitely is intended to be interpreted as being sacrificial in some scenes, but I still think that's influenced by a having a westerners perspective. Eva generally appropriates the imagery and takes them to mean something internal within itself. Sometimes those ideas overlap. With the idea of sacrifice at least, I think it depends how liberally you use the word. I would consider the killing of the Angels a kind of ritualistic sacrifice (Just dressed up in traditional mecha vs. monster combat), though I would understand if others don't agree with that particular reading. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 17:44 on May 1, 2015 |
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May 1, 2015 17:30
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Raxivace posted:EDIT: Actually this page mentions that that form of Cross was used in Christianity at one point as well. It really shouldn't surprise anyone that Christians borrowed from another faith/practice/religion/ceremony. Their entire gig is just older religions remixed. That's a big reason I can't believe anyone takes Christianity seriously, but that's neither here nor there.
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May 1, 2015 18:24
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How have none of you posted this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzKWbpSNkmk
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May 1, 2015 18:31
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:It really shouldn't surprise anyone that Christians borrowed from another faith/practice/religion/ceremony. Their entire gig is just older religions remixed. This is true of most religions, and most of human culture for that matter. Personally I just think it's cool how Eva uses Christian myth the way Western media always uses Greek/Roman/Norse myth.
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May 2, 2015 01:43
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Misato's cross actually has nothing to do with Christianity. quote:represent the natural union between male and female. Misato, thirsty to the very end.
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May 2, 2015 12:57
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Misato's cross actually has nothing to do with Christianity. gently caress me is that why the Greek Flag has an equal armed cross on it?
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May 2, 2015 14:44
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Hmm it's called "Greek cross" so...
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May 2, 2015 14:45
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:It really shouldn't surprise anyone that Evangelion borrowed from another series/anime/novel/film. Its entire gig is just older stories remixed. Agreed.
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May 2, 2015 15:32
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I always thought it was just meaningless babble to sound ~deep~ and ~important~ to give you a break from the nihilism. It kinda feels like he's fallen back into old habits that way. Let's confuse things and throw enough metaphors around that you can't quite be sure whether it's symbolism or terrible writing(or both). Like some kind of deeply religious octopus.
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May 3, 2015 09:21
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