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Throatwarbler posted:A 14.5mm round has almost twice the propellant charge and energy of a .50, and yet it has only similar performance? A 14.5mm round only has 4-7k more foot-pounds than a .50 BMG (depending on which two rounds you're comparing), or a bit more than 25% greater energy with two typical cartridges.
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May 6, 2015 02:59
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Seeing that blocky as hell tank makes me think if popular sci-fi imagery will end up defining modern equipment appearance at some point. (Obligatory link to that Halo-looking military helmet would go here)
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May 6, 2015 03:11
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White Phosphorus posted:More pics. Can I just echo that the Russian military logo looks terrible? It's like something out of a PC game from the 90s. I know this is a rebranding to make something of a break from the past, but c'mon. Red Stars, man. Red stars are iconic. Aeroflot kept the hammer and sickle after communism died because it looked good. Also I see all of this as a moot point; if there's one thing the cold war (or more recent history) teaches us, it's that your military power is irreverent if your economy is a shambles.
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May 6, 2015 03:16
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Nebakenezzer posted:Can I just echo that the Russian military logo looks terrible? It's like something out of a PC game from the 90s. I know this is a rebranding to make something of a break from the past, but c'mon. Red Stars, man. Red stars are iconic. Aeroflot kept the hammer and sickle after communism died because it looked good. How DARE YOU say communism is dead?  They should ditch the blue, to be honest.
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May 6, 2015 03:22
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Azran posted:How DARE YOU say communism is dead? I thought North Korea had "officially" repudiated communism in favor of their own Juche ideology? Not that that changes much for the average North Korean, of course.
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May 6, 2015 03:31
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Mazz posted:As for not upgunning, the T-95 was supposed to mount a 152mm along with a 30mm coax, but I assume they found the 125mm 2A82 was a significant enough improvement to not need to completely change calibers (or that the 152 was an awkward piece of poo poo).This is similar to the 120mm L/44 vs L/55 from what little I've read about the the 2A82. One of the biggest difference makers will be if the autoloader has the capacity to handle longer ammo then the T-80 and 90s, since I've read they were running into problems with length, and that's one of the biggest components of penetrating power in APFSDS rounds. There is a 152mm artillery version of the Armata
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May 6, 2015 03:45
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Throatwarbler posted:A 14.5mm round has almost twice the propellant charge and energy of a .50, and yet it has only similar performance? It's really difficult to get comparable numbers for penetration, especially in small calibers where armour hardness plays a large role. The 14.5mm saboted rounds probably penetrate better than SLAP on an equivalent plate, but it's difficult to compare directly since the rounds are tested differently. Not to mention that modern rounds are optimized for penetration in actual armor arrays, and those are not monolithic steel plate anymore. RHA eq figures are increasingly meaningless these days.
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May 6, 2015 03:51
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Seeing the turret on that thing made me understand why they put a bag over its head.
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May 6, 2015 04:11
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Davin Valkri posted:I thought North Korea had "officially" repudiated communism in favor of their own Juche ideology? Don't know about officially, but yeah, it's all Juche and no Marx these days.
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May 6, 2015 04:35
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MrYenko posted:An M2 would need SLAP ammunition (.50BMG SLAP is rated at 34mm penetration at 500m, more, closer up,) and be shooting at the sides, top, or rear, from close range, to have any chance at real damage to a T-34-85, and even then, it'd be a coin toss for penetration. With .50BMG ball, you might break optics, damage the commander's gun, trash the crew's exterior-stored equipment, etc, but mostly you'd just piss them off. Pity the fool who plinks at a tank with a machine gun.
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May 6, 2015 05:01
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Yet the M2 was initially conceived as an antitank weapon. Would have actually worked fine. You know. Back in the twenties.
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May 6, 2015 05:17
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White Phosphorus posted:More pics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Russians building these (and a couple other vehicles) on the same hull design? Should have just called it the T-35 be done with it.
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May 6, 2015 07:04
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Davin Valkri posted:I thought North Korea had "officially" repudiated communism in favor of their own Juche ideology? Not that that changes much for the average North Korean, of course. Yeah, officially they aren't communists any more. Anyways, Cuba? Venezuela maybe?  I dunno, how many communist countries are even left in the world that aren't shitholes?
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May 6, 2015 07:12
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Azran posted:Yeah, officially they aren't communists any more. There weren't ever communist countries that weren't shitholes, so not much has changed there. The DDR for instance was nicer than the rest, but it still sucked.
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May 6, 2015 11:29
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MrChips posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Russians building these (and a couple other vehicles) on the same hull design? Not enough guns. Mortabis posted:There weren't ever communist countries that weren't shitholes, so not much has changed there. The DDR for instance was nicer than the rest, but it still sucked. Ehh, you could argue that while communism was fantastic at taking countries from square one to "has industry", it's atrocious at actually building a consumer economy. Even then its successes are more due to being centrally planned in implementation than anything. (see post-war France, Japan and Korea(?) for capitalist examples) Also lflol but "shithole" is relative. If you were a black person in the 1960s South communism seemed like a good time since gently caress it you were being repressed anyway Forums Terrorist fucked around with this message at 11:36 on May 6, 2015 |
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May 6, 2015 11:32
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Here, have a half-arsed news article about the parade: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32588868
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May 6, 2015 12:46
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I always thought Angola was communist because of the flag, but it turns out that when they changed government styles in 1992 they neglected to update the flag
simplefish fucked around with this message at 12:50 on May 6, 2015 |
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May 6, 2015 12:48
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simplefish posted:I always thought Angola was communist because of the flag, but it turns out that when they changed government styles in 1992 they neglected to update the flag It is a cool flag.
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May 6, 2015 12:53
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Mortabis posted:There weren't ever communist countries that weren't shitholes, so not much has changed there. The DDR for instance was nicer than the rest, but it still sucked. It's probably the high point of Russian history. Modern Russia is a god awful mess.
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May 6, 2015 13:18
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xthetenth posted:It's probably the high point of Russian history. Modern Russia is a god awful mess. That's not really saying much, Russia has been on top of the "This loving Sucks" game for like a whole millennia.
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May 6, 2015 14:31
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xthetenth posted:It's probably the high point of Russian history. Modern Russia is a god awful mess. As much as it does suck it actually is better off now than it was then.
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May 6, 2015 15:14
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Azran posted:Yeah, officially they aren't communists any more. Wikipedia claims that communist states today are China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba. Can't comment on the others, but China is the best place in the world to exploit workers, so that's a bit 
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May 6, 2015 15:19
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Mortabis posted:As much as it does suck it actually is better off now than it was then. If you like drinking denatured alcohol and not having decent healthcare, sure!
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May 6, 2015 15:46
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More like, if you don't like waiting in line for bread and milk. Their healthcare then was pretty garbage too. Russia may still be very poor, and a lot poorer than other post-Soviet/post-Communist countries (e.g. Lithuania and Poland), but it's still wealthier than it was when the economy was planned and 30% of it was going to the military.
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May 6, 2015 16:00
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chitoryu12 posted:The T-34 was vulnerable to World War II-era anti-tank weapons. The RPG-7 was made after that. The Tiger wasn't exactly the ne plus ultra of WWII tanks, 76mm Shermans could penetrate it frontally at respectable ranges. An RPG-7 is going to penetrate any WWII tank, period.
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May 6, 2015 16:10
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MrChips posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Russians building these (and a couple other vehicles) on the same hull design? Yeah that's the plan. Tank, IFV, howitzer, mortar, scout, ambulance, recovery vehicle, and so on. The US tried to do this sort of thing with FCS/GCV but couldn't really find a cost-effective way to make it work, at least in a way that offered a significant capability upgrade. I'm really curious to know more about how the Russians went about this.
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May 6, 2015 16:19
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Mortabis posted:More like, if you don't like waiting in line for bread and milk. You might want to look up what happened to life expectancy or the medical system. Also it's pretty funny talking about how wealthy Russia is as if that has any bearing on the average person's life, and that disconnect isn't most of why modern Russia is such an egregious shithole.
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May 6, 2015 16:24
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Phanatic posted:The Tiger wasn't exactly the ne plus ultra of WWII tanks, 76mm Shermans could penetrate it frontally at respectable ranges. Yeah but by the time 76mm Sherman tanks were fielded the Nazis had the Tiger II.
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May 6, 2015 16:46
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Smiling Jack posted:Yeah but by the time 76mm Sherman tanks were fielded the Nazis had the Tiger II. But in what numbers? As I understand it the Germans weren't able to pump out that much later war machinery and what they did produce had poor metallurgy.
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May 6, 2015 17:07
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TCD posted:But in what numbers? As I understand it the Germans weren't able to pump out that much later war machinery and what they did produce had poor metallurgy. Some cursory research says 492 Tiger IIs were built. To give an example of how many you could expect to see on the battlefield, the 501st Heavy Panzer Battalion listed having only 25 in their inventory; for comparison, over 2000 Pershing heavy tanks were built by the end of 1945. Its armor maxed out at 185mm, so even without the brittleness and bad weld problems of World War II German armor any anti-tank weapon from the RPG-7 onward would likely go through its thickest point.
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May 6, 2015 17:30
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TCD posted:But in what numbers? As I understand it the Germans weren't able to pump out that much later war machinery and what they did produce had poor metallurgy. They produced enough for it to be a notable part in the Bulge but it doesn't really matter as by the time it was common enough the allies had vehicles like the M36 and IS-2, and the Axis were essentially already broken. Half of the Tigers legacy comes from the fact it appeared in 1942, and the other half is because lots of allies mistook Panthers for Tigers, that were far more common, which were just as dangerous frontally. As said, there's no tank in WW2 that could survive a direct hit from an RPG-7 unless you get into 1 off paper tanks, and that's only if using the early RPG-7 warheads. Anything 7V or later has 400+mm penetration.
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May 6, 2015 17:33
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chitoryu12 posted:Some cursory research says 492 Tiger IIs were built. To give an example of how many you could expect to see on the battlefield, the 501st Heavy Panzer Battalion listed having only 25 in their inventory; for comparison, over 2000 Pershing heavy tanks were built by the end of 1945. That is incredibly misleading. Yes, over 2000 Pershings were buil5, but only 310 made it to Europe before VE day, and only 20 actually saw combat.
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May 6, 2015 17:57
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Are RPG-7s still a threat to top-of-the-line modern MBTs?
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May 6, 2015 17:58
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Mazz posted:They produced enough for it to be a notable part in the Bulge but it doesn't really matter as by the time it was common enough the allies had vehicles like the M36 and IS-2, and the Axis were essentially already broken. Half of the Tigers legacy comes from the fact it appeared in 1942, and the other half is because lots of allies mistook Panthers for Tigers, that were far more common, which were just as dangerous frontally. The Tiger tanks really were very good heavy tanks for world war 2 - they had excellent guns, good armor protection, and could move effectively in all sorts of terrain (forgetting little problems, like the Tiger I's layers and layers of road wheels.) That said, you are right, they did get an almost mythic reputation out of proportion to what they actually were. I think a part of this was that American tank forces during the Normandy invasion took a shitload of casualties from the Germans, partially due to some really unfortunate decisions regarding ammo storage. Somebody decided it'd be a wise move for M4s/Shermans to carry extra loose rounds in the cabin, and that meant anytime a Kraut tank could penetrate the cabin with a shot, it'd kill the tank and the crew.
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May 6, 2015 18:02
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david_a posted:Are RPG-7s still a threat to top-of-the-line modern MBTs? Potentially? It's just a launcher, it all depends on the munition you're firing, and where you hit. I remember reading a damage report of an Abrams in Iraq hit by an RPG-7 round that penetrated one side and out the other (maybe just splattered the other side) but missed any critical bits/crew.
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May 6, 2015 18:03
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Arrath posted:Potentially? It's just a launcher, it all depends on the munition you're firing, and where you hit.
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May 6, 2015 18:07
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david_a posted:Was that a RPG-7 or a RPG-29? I was browsing Wikipedia to see what the latest-and-greatest was, and it seems the U.S. thought they were a big enough threat that they didn't allow the Iraqi Government to buy any for fear of them getting into insurgency hands. Damned if I know, IIRC the damage report wasn't entirely sure either considering they didn't catch the guy who shot the rocket. I believe the consensus was that it was either a modern RPG-7 warhead or a -29.
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May 6, 2015 18:10
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Any tank crew that doesn't take an RPG-7 seriously is going to get turned into a slurry/filled full of holes as they bail out of their burning tank.
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May 6, 2015 18:12
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david_a posted:Are RPG-7s still a threat to top-of-the-line modern MBTs? It depends what you mean by "threat". Vanilla RPG-7 warheads won't reliably penetrate the armor at any point, but there's some examples of them damaging Abrams enough to get a mobility kill or sending the tank back for rebuild. Conversely, there are some examples of Abrams taking literally dozens of shots without any issue. The 7VR warhead is comparable to much more modern RPGs in terms of performance and can penetrate MBT armor from some angles but not all. In any case we're getting to the point where we can't improve much more on armor protection while keeping the vehicle at useful sizes, while warheads continue to get better and better.
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May 6, 2015 18:17
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bewbies posted:In any case we're getting to the point where we can't improve much more on armor protection while keeping the vehicle at useful sizes, while warheads continue to get better and better. Thus the drive for better and better ERA and point defense/active protection systems. I want to ask questions about APS stuff but I expect the answer would be "the people that know won't be talking about it" But really, what is on the horizon in that field? Any advances on the 'not shredding the supporting infantry with a big shotgun blast aimed at the threat' front?
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May 6, 2015 18:24
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