Grognards.txt NEXT: Goodnight, Sweet Wince

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Grognards.txt NEXT: Goodnight, Sweet Wince

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Mors Rattus posted:

This is a thread that will go places.

quote:

The Sabbat are actually worse than ISIS in most regards, in fact the Sabbat is worse than just about any human group. For some reason, players just can't seem to treat the Sabbat (or numerous fictional evil groups) in a serious manner. If comparing them to real world violent groups, which we do take very seriously, can help get ourselves in the right mindset of thinking of the Sabbat as terrible, then all the better.

For some reason players don't take a faction seriously when they create members in late-night horror movie fashion, then play "football" like a GTA kidnapping and destroy supermarkets with elaborately juvenile games of "Cowboys & Indians"!?!!?!!!?!

Anyway, Sean K Reynolds has been rehired by Wizards to help manage lore and stuff on D&D and derivatives. Obviously, this means:

quote:

Anyone they hire that goes against absolutes is a good thing. Unless that lack of absolutes is absolute. Oh wait...

I'm glad a d20 expert is back into the mix. Not only to avoid the excesses of 4e design, but just as importantly of 3e's. Being intimately familiar with the mistakes of the past two generations of D&D is a terrific thing in a hire for 5e.

Good for Wizards landing him. The two sets of books that I purchased went towards something.

But I find it so ironic that I was just mentioning how I didn't like their idea of fixing a balance issue in basic D&D with a feat fix in standard, or a substandard PHB option with a strictly superior option in AU. And his blog mentions the arms race of immunity vs immunity piercing feats escalation.

As well as the disavowal of absolutes. Like the absolute ability to completely negate any chance of an AoO when a swashbuckler runs around attacking 3 things a round. They could have done so much better, like say such attacks are at disadvantage, or he has resistance against such attacks. Literally pertinent in so many ways to the latest AU article they just published yesterday.

Hopefully he brings another voice for rational game design to avoid such absolutes or endless arms races or power glut that 3e and 4e were cursed with. But I see a lot of the issues of 3e and Pathfinder could easily have been fixed through errata yet weren't. Many people believe 3.5 is not much of an improvement over 3e for many classes. And Pathfinder is well known for having many classes like Summoner that are pants-on-head _________ed.

That last part almost makes me feel sorry for the guy.

quote:

Not a fan. Thought his Reaalms and especially his GH work was poor. I wasnt happy to see him laid off, but I was glad he wasnt going o be writing lore/modules. I hope the new gig keeps him from doing the same.

He's better at being a rules lawyer. And writing/presentation of such, e.g. PF Beginner Box, which is fantastic.

Not this guy, though.

# ? May 5, 2015 13:54

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 2, 2024 16:13

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Far West!

quote:

Ben -- there will be material coming this week.

I strongly disagree with your characterization of daily updates as "a plodding narrative", but I understand your frustration. At the stage we're at now (which you can see via those same daily updates), the game should be delivered in the month of May.

Literally months of "still working on chapter 12" and then "still working on layout", and "daily" updates turning into "about three or four times a week" updates. At the time he posted this comment, he'd made six updates over 14 days.

Anyway, looking forward to Far West's release on stardate 419586.98.

# ? May 5, 2015 14:11

MalcolmSheppard: Jun 24, 2012; MATTHEW 7:20

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Well, it's like the story of the scorpion and the frog, only in the end the scorpion stings the frog and says, "Well, you see, I was never contractually obligated not to sting you."

He's indeed up front about his contracts but he often plays football Lucy Van Pelt-style with freelancers, which goes partway to explaining why he often has trouble hanging on to writers.

Honestly, part of it is that I'm also trying to be nice. One of the posts about this was a guy saying that there's no way he could have produced a bad draft because he'd almost finished a 4 year English degree at a good university! In the case of Dead Reign nobody either side disputes that the game was substantially rewritten (see Joshua Hilden--not the guy who complained about his almost-BA skills--at http://joshhilden.com/universal-josh/2014/9/18/shoot-for-the-head-part-5-zombies-in-print).

Nevertheless, I don't think KS is without stain of sin. I think it's lousy that the payment terms are shaky and there seems to be something missing in Palladium's production process. Over at Onyx Path the outline comes first, with wordcount, content and organization set. Everybody knows what the expectations are. There's a style guide that covers everything from preferred style and usage to document formatting. Sometimes this is challenging for newcomers to get--I helped out some new writers on a project with a tutorial about that stuff last year, for instance--but once they do, it makes things easier for everyone.

I strongly suspect that the Rifter's low bar to entry is accompanied by substantial editorial rewrites and a different set of expectations than for sourcebooks. In every freelance case I've read it's been someone with repeat articles in the Rifter running into trouble after being hired for a sourcebook. Obviously something bad's happening in that transition.

# ? May 5, 2015 15:40

Jimbozig: Sep 30, 2003; I like sharing and ice cream and animals.

Plague of Hats posted:

Far West!

Literally months of "still working on chapter 12" and then "still working on layout", and "daily" updates turning into "about three or four times a week" updates. At the time he posted this comment, he'd made six updates over 14 days.

Anyway, looking forward to Far West's release on stardate 419586.98.

Not to take anything away from the hilarity that is Far West, but expecting daily updates is absurd. Nobody works on a thing 7 days a week. That he promised daily updates is as absurd as the idea that anyone would believe him.

# ? May 5, 2015 18:50

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Well of course. We already made fun of his ridiculous promise when he made it.

# ? May 5, 2015 21:13

Mewnie: Apr 2, 2011; clean dogge
is a
happy dogge

I have played D&D since 1978. I am familiar with all the different versions of the game. To put it simply, I am NOT a fan of the new version 5. The Advantage/Disadvantage is a TERRIBLE game mechanic.
D&D used to be a game that encouraged reading, strategy, tactics, teamwork and mathematics. Now it has been simplified to accommodate the current generation of kids that are enamored with video
games and instant gratification. Thinking, math and problem solving have been expertly excised from the game. Too bad really. In my opinion, these were D&D�s greatest strengths. I feel WotC has dropped
the ball, again, and D&D Next (5E) is doomed to fail.

The Open d20 license system upon which D&D 3x, Pathfinder, d20 Modern and a multitude of spin-offs are founded makes for a better game and an abundance of excellent source material can be easily found to support it.

# ? May 5, 2015 21:15

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

Every grog believes that "video games have ruined the minds of children/anyone younger than me by even a second, this is why every RPG other than the ones I like are bad" is a refreshing and interesting opinion, it's really quite cute.

# ? May 5, 2015 22:12

Mewnie: Apr 2, 2011; clean dogge
is a
happy dogge

Kids these days can't do X. Why, back in my day, you had to do X or else :bahgawd:

# ? May 5, 2015 22:46

The Crotch: Oct 16, 2012; by Nyc_Tattoo

Mewnie posted:

I have played D&D since 1978. I am familiar with all the different versions of the game. To put it simply, I am NOT a fan of the new version 5. The Advantage/Disadvantage is a TERRIBLE game mechanic.
D&D used to be a game that encouraged reading, strategy, tactics, teamwork and mathematics. Now it has been simplified to accommodate the current generation of kids that are enamored with video
games and instant gratification. Thinking, math and problem solving have been expertly excised from the game. Too bad really. In my opinion, these were D&D�s greatest strengths. I feel WotC has dropped
the ball, again, and D&D Next (5E) is doomed to fail.

The Open d20 license system upon which D&D 3x, Pathfinder, d20 Modern and a multitude of spin-offs are founded makes for a better game and an abundance of excellent source material can be easily found to support it.

# ? May 6, 2015 00:00

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

MalcolmSheppard posted:

Honestly, part of it is that I'm also trying to be nice. One of the posts about this was a guy saying that there's no way he could have produced a bad draft because he'd almost finished a 4 year English degree at a good university! In the case of Dead Reign nobody either side disputes that the game was substantially rewritten (see Joshua Hilden--not the guy who complained about his almost-BA skills--at http://joshhilden.com/universal-josh/2014/9/18/shoot-for-the-head-part-5-zombies-in-print).

Yeah, I get that. Not everybody that's taken a shot at Palladium has been standing on firm ground, to be honest. On the other hand, as far as Palladium goes, I'm going to just quote a goon who worked there from the Palladium thread-

CroatianAlzheimers posted:

Yeah, the "editing" is a joke. If Kevin writes it, Alex and Julius (both of whom are incredible sperglords and total yes-men) "edit" it, all the while telling Kevin that it's awesome and the best thing they've ever read. If someone else writes it, then Kevin re-writes it, gives it to Alex and Julius who then "edit" the manuscript, all the while telling Kevin that it's awesome and the best thing they've ever read and only he could have fixed the obviously deeply flawed original manuscript.

This is, as you can imagine, a total joke. I one time went through a manuscript after Alex and caught a ton of super basic spelling and grammar mistakes, not to mention a couple of structural problems with the manuscript. This is after it'd gone through two sets of eyes and about a month on various desks. I brought this up to Himself and his answer was, Well, you have to remember, he's not a professional editor... He's been an Editor for twenty goddamned years! For money! That's the loving definition of a professional!

Anyway, there's also zero editorial guidance. There's no styleguide (just read any of our books and do it that way!), Everything seemed, to me at least, to be a guessing game as to what Kevin wanted, and the sum total of his editorial direction usually amounts to little more than, That's a great idea! Just write it!. Kevin doesn't believe that writers can edit/re-write their own work, nor can they follow directions. He told me that to my face. I didn't get a single re-write or piece of editorial direction until after I got laid off and started working for Fantasy Flight in '09.

(sorry if this is a little ranty/rambling, I spent all day in the sun doing yard work)

MalcolmSheppard posted:

I strongly suspect that the Rifter's low bar to entry is accompanied by substantial editorial rewrites and a different set of expectations than for sourcebooks. In every freelance case I've read it's been someone with repeat articles in the Rifter running into trouble after being hired for a sourcebook. Obviously something bad's happening in that transition.

I think the main "low bar to entry" is that "Kevin doesn't worry The Rifter so much". The Rifter is really the baby of Palladium staffer Wayne Smith, who's willing to stuff those pages with whatever he has to make sure it comes out four times a year- that's not to say it doesn't have standards, but he has to work with what he has to work with sometimes- and Siembieda is much, much more focused on making sure the RPG books are focused on his vision. Mind, he isn't entirely clear with to writers as to what that might be until he's got a manuscript in his lap. I mean, I just started poking at my F&F writeup for Rifts Underseas, and that was a book that got to the manuscript stage before Kevin sighed, realized he didn't care for it very much, and had to roll up his sleeves and write it himself. (Thankfully, CJ Carella was on-hand at the time to help fill it with enough material and get it out the door on time.)

Dead Reign is one thing but it's mostly just part of a larger pattern. Though Bill Coffin's infamous rant no doubt went too far, he also complained about the same issue, and you see in the intro to some Palladium Books a variation of "well, this book is late because the writer just didn't have that Rifts zazz, so I had to pitch in... nothing personal against them, but..."

# ? May 6, 2015 00:40

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

quote:

I've often heard the GM advice that players shouldn't die because of a single bad roll, and I know it's common for there to be complaints that PCs died while unable to do anything about it. So what is the acceptable situation for a PC to die? If they can't do anything to save themselves, they lacked agency. If they could and did try to do something to save themselves, and failed a roll, they died from a bad roll. If they could and did try to do something to save themselves, and made the roll and/or didn't save themselves, then they didn't die. If they die from a bad series of rolls.. well, that never really goes down well, because the last one counts as the "single bad roll" from the player's POV (given that the previous rolls are now water under the bridge). So are people saying that PCs should never actually die?

This person joined RPGnet in 2002 and has made over 2200 posts. I assume trolling.

# ? May 6, 2015 05:32

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

quote:

Exactly. They are guidelines for a starting point, and additional criteria such as knowledge of players, their characters and intuition by the DM part are still required as usual.
A "Deadly encounter" ideally aims to be in that way, but it doesn't need to be so in practice: the stat blocks, specially when it's about published adventures can't address the many factors and variables of an RPG.
Removing such things for the shake of people without the time for making adjustments prior to the game session, or on the fly, would result in already existing options such as boardgames or computer based "RPGs".

This is not, shall we say, purestrain grog, but the last part is interesting because it implies

1. that you couldn't (or deliberately didn't) design an RPG with predictable enough factors and variables that encounter building guidelines (not rules!) would always produce a difficulty level that you wanted

2. that even if you did, it wouldn't be an RPG anymore.

# ? May 6, 2015 13:28

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

So, how about Savage Worlds?

DhAkael posted:

Not really caring one toss. *shrug* If it helps keep TRUE Rifts(tm) afloat and help in sales of TRUE Rifts(tm) products published by PBooks to those RP'rs who want to see the original game...great.
I just can't feel anything but apathy towards yet another attempt by one game company to try and "make the game their own".
It sucked when S.J.G. GURPS'd everything (I particualrly loath their take on Traveller), and looking at what's happening in the latest Battletech(s)? *shudder*

Thank you, but much as I have issue with K.S. at times, HE and PBooks will be getting my Rifts dollars... not these pretenders.

# ? May 6, 2015 19:16

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

quote:

I don't have much to say here except to agree heartily with the concerns brought up by the OP.

I am a fairly vocal opponent of fail forward, particularly when it is phrased as "success at a cost" or "success imposing hard choices". Take, just as a for instance, Shadowrun 4th Edition. Not exactly your most most progressively designed game, but it does have a "success with consequences" case built into the core mechanic: the "non-critical glitch". The problem to me becomes immediately evident here. Even though non-critical glitches are fairly rare things by the dice, once or twice a session while GMing I would still find myself struggling to come up with a "success at a cost" for a given test that didn't fail by either being a) not really a success or b) not really having a cost. Your basic Perception Test is a classic example of something it's hard to come up with a "Glitch" before. If the fundamentally important thing is "do you see it or do you not" ... well, any resolution where you don't see it is a failure. Any scenario where you see something, but not the thing that is actually there, is a worse failure than a simple uncomplicated failure (more like a critical glitch). We can come up with scenarios like "alright, you spot the ninjas, but your night vision goggles freak out and stop working" and that's in the spirit of a glitch, but what about something like astral perception? In any case, even if the GM does come up with a meaningful success that has a meaningful cost, doing so is going to take a fair bit of time.

And as I mentioned, the non-critical Glitch is statistically speaking a fairly rare result in SR4. The GM only needs to perform this magic trick a few times a session. In something like, I don't know... *World, where "success with a complication" is virtually the most common result of any given die roll, I feel like dozens of times a session even a very skilled GM is going to come up with a result that meaningfully a success, doesn't meaningfully have a cost, takes a long time to think up, or any combination of the three. This is my basic opposition to "fail forward" as I've seen it implemented. Which...I now realize after typing a bunch of stuff is much more the concept of "success at a cost" than strictly speaking the concept of "Fail Forward" so sorry for going a little OT. I find I have lots more to say within the general umbrella of this topic but it's gonna take hours and hundreds of words and a blog post so yeah not here.

Obviously, it's cool to like whatever basic resolution mechanic you like, but this post just reeks of a fear of improvisation that makes me wonder how on Earth he plays a game that doesn't give you a bunch of guidelines exactly like *World does. I mean, loving LOL, "I am a vocal opponent of fail forward PS I guess I might mean something else."

Bonus: This guy's signature is an ad for his blog and Kickstarter. The guy's Kickstarter looks decent enough and seems like it might even deliver on time, though the system is called "DicePunk." The most recent thing on his blog is a six thousand word whinge about his LARP group's drama and falling attendance.

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 02:16 on May 7, 2015

# ? May 7, 2015 02:11

Mad Jaqk: Jun 2, 2013

Here are some answers submitted on Quora:

In D&D 3.5, which of the core classes is more powerful?

quote:

As has been pointed out here, this fluctuates somewhat by level and tier. Once Wizard-types gain access to the Polymorph and Teleport trees, they surely rank at or among the highest power-levels in the entire game. Prior to this, I'd say the edge goes to a carefully-built Cleric or Druid; the Wild-Shape and Natural-Spell combo is like something out of an EverQuest or World-of-Warcraft MMO, as evidenced by subsequent editions ruling "no, you can't do that anymore."

How can I be a great Dungeon Master in Dungeons & Dragons 4e?

quote:

I say, "Make your players work for their treasure." 4e is notoriously easy on player characters as far as abilities and advancement goes. If you are playing 4e, your party will likely be as confoundingly diverse as the Cantina on Tatooine and full up of superpowers that would shame the Justice League. So don't just spoon feed them xp and loot.

quote:

Play a different system.

But seriously, being a good DM isn't really impacted by the system. A good DM is a good DM in whatever the system and there are lots and lots of good articles and answers about how to do that on Quora and elsewhere on the net.

But seriously seriously, play a different system.

In role-playing game books, why isn't the spell's damage, range and duration listed immediately after the spell name?

Do the writers of role-playing game books not realize these are the most sought-after spell stats? Why do they keep burying the spell stats inside the long description (spell description)?

quote:

You seem to be confusing role playing and munchkinism.

In 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons, should I let my players randomly generate stats by rolling dice, or use the point buy system?

quote:

I would be apt to either roll 4 xd6 or 5 xd6 and drop the lowest (1 or 2). I think the point buy system makes all the characters super heroes to the point that abnormally high to monsters and NPC's of similar level.

At the end of the day you could allow players who roll really poorly to not use the character and create a new character. The reality is that a poorly rolled character won't be used by a player for long anyway.

However if you use a point buy system everyone has super elite character stats with nothing marginal or in between (between strong and weak). In addition when somebody does get lucky and rolls high on a few stats their character ins't anything special in a point buy system campaign.

In the idea of RPG I think of stats sorta like genetics. It is the luck of the draw on what you get--by contrast the point buy system suggests you can "purchase" extra abilities (like doing steroids?) which clearly isn't an option without magical or divine exposure in a D & D world.

# ? May 7, 2015 06:12

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

In which a moron is very angry about failforwarding through a timeloop mystery!

quote:

Archive Link to the G+ Post https://archive.today/04XXW

Not trying to bring the actual game design/adventuring writing discussion here, so much as point out the hilarious social justice whinority, participation award, everyone is special-esque "solution", courtesy of one Stephanie Bryant:

Present the players with a problem, and whatever they do is the correct answer, even if they switch gears in the middle of solving the problem!

I mean holy poo poo, it'd be like playing God of War, only when a QTE triggers any button you press keeps the event going. Or, anything from the Myst or Monkey Island series, and anything and everything you do solves the puzzles.

Why even play a game at that point? Why not just get together and write a stupid sci-fi story that no one will care about?

# ? May 7, 2015 08:51

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

It takes a certain dedication to cultivating your insufferability and lack of self-awareness to reach the stage where you can unironically describe something as a "social justice whinority" and not immediately be overcome by crippling shame.

# ? May 7, 2015 09:10

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

Kai Tave posted:

It takes a certain dedication to cultivating your insufferability and lack of self-awareness to reach the stage where you can unironically describe something as a "social justice whinority" and not immediately be overcome by crippling shame.

And of course Tabletop games are literally the same as videogames! Color me educated.

# ? May 7, 2015 09:20

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

quote:

quote:
"the time Dungeon World came along as their big move to try to subvert old-school."

How do you reckon that took place exactly?

Dungeon world was marketed in such a way as to make it seem like it was an old-school game, to the point that some people bought it under those false pretenses. It was also a major shift-moment for the storygames movement, where instead of collectively thumbing their noses at the type of games the 'great unwashed' play in order to keep promoting their games about sexually-frustrated victorian professors or girls smoking outside a mcdonalds or whatever, they started to try to hitch onto the OSR's success in pushing for more mainstream games with a very different tone and style than the ones they previously promoted. In one sense, it was a tactic, in another, a tacit admission of the collapse of their movement.

# ? May 7, 2015 09:47

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Error 404 posted:

And of course Tabletop games are literally the same as videogames! Color me educated.

Really, it's perfect that he brings up oldschool point-and-click adventure games as a counterexample for why fail-forward is for social justice whinetards or whatever because adventure games are more or less the literal opposite of fail-forward gaming. If you don't know the one specific puzzle solution involving making a moustache out of cat hair in order to progress then the game just grinds to a halt until you brute force your way through it. There's a reason adventure games are a mostly dead genre these days and it's because people largely got tired of poo poo like that.

# ? May 7, 2015 09:48

My Lovely Horse: Aug 21, 2010

quote:

I mean holy poo poo, it'd be like playing God of War, only when a QTE triggers any button you press keeps the event going.

Oh, I love this one. No notion whatsoever that this might actually be bad design in God of War itself.

I played Sleeping Dogs recently: there are regular in-combat QTEs, and the difference whether you make it or not is you get out of the opponent's grip or you take a hit before the fight carries on.

# ? May 7, 2015 13:20

Guilty Spork: Feb 26, 2011; Thunder rolled. It rolled a six.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Dungeon world was marketed in such a way as to make it seem like it was an old-school game, to the point that some people bought it under those false pretenses. It was also a major shift-moment for the storygames movement, where instead of collectively thumbing their noses at the type of games the 'great unwashed' play in order to keep promoting their games about sexually-frustrated victorian professors or girls smoking outside a mcdonalds or whatever, they started to try to hitch onto the OSR's success in pushing for more mainstream games with a very different tone and style than the ones they previously promoted. In one sense, it was a tactic, in another, a tacit admission of the collapse of their movement.

[/quote]
Meanwhile in real life Sage and Adam made a game they thought would be fun to make and play, and that's pretty much it. Also by and large indie types (including Ron Edwards) are generally really positive about old-school D&D, but Pundowski has never let reality get in the way of his dumb narrative before, and isn't about to start now. (Oh, and pretending that Nicotine Girls and The Shab-al-Hiri Roach are the big games indie people are promoting.)

# ? May 7, 2015 15:40

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Kai Tave posted:

Really, it's perfect that he brings up oldschool point-and-click adventure games as a counterexample for why fail-forward is for social justice whinetards or whatever because adventure games are more or less the literal opposite of fail-forward gaming. If you don't know the one specific puzzle solution involving making a moustache out of cat hair in order to progress then the game just grinds to a halt until you brute force your way through it. There's a reason adventure games are a mostly dead genre these days and it's because people largely got tired of poo poo like that.

D'awww someone's played Gabriel Knight 3.

# ? May 7, 2015 16:18

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Kai Tave posted:

Really, it's perfect that he brings up oldschool point-and-click adventure games as a counterexample for why fail-forward is for social justice whinetards or whatever because adventure games are more or less the literal opposite of fail-forward gaming. If you don't know the one specific puzzle solution involving making a moustache out of cat hair in order to progress then the game just grinds to a halt until you brute force your way through it. There's a reason adventure games are a mostly dead genre these days and it's because people largely got tired of poo poo like that.

Wasn't "pixelbitching" a TRPG term as much as a computer adventure game one, even?

# ? May 7, 2015 16:28

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

gradenko_2000 posted:

Wasn't "pixelbitching" a TRPG term as much as a computer adventure game one, even?

It started life as a computer adventure game term, before jumping over to TTRPGs

# ? May 7, 2015 16:42

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

theironjef posted:

D'awww someone's played Gabriel Knight 3.

GK3 was used as an example in a famous early internet posting about how and why adventure games died as a genre.

I miss Old Man Murray.

# ? May 7, 2015 16:44

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Also, one of grognard.txt's early superstars just showed up in the Game Industry thread in response to something of his that I re-quoted to say he totally stands by his statement that there's no such thing as inflation and $35 now is the same as $35 twenty years ago.

# ? May 7, 2015 16:49

paradoxGentleman: Dec 10, 2013; wheres the jester, I could do with some pointless nonsense right about now

His point was a little more convoluted than that. I honestly didn't really understand it, since I have not experienced the fluctuation in the value of the dollar in the USA and also wasn't alive back then, but maybe it has more insight than that:

quote:

Actually that grog.txt post was from me and I still pretty much stand by it.
But thanks dude that said I clearly live in my basement. As opposed to owning my own paid for home and making pretty decent money.

Inflation is kind of true AND false all at the same time plus perception and age. I am 40. 20 bucks to me is gonna feel different than 20 bucks to someone graduating High School this year. Obviously it goes a lot less further generally, even if I went from 5 bucks an hour at my first job out of the Navy in 96 to 28 or so now. (Gas has practically doubled but it was a 1.40 in 96, down to a buck in 98, about 4.50 or so in mid 00s, now around 2.80.) Hell, snacks at the work vending machine were like 65 cents in 98 and now they are .85-1.00.

poo poo goes up in price and wages go up but generally not remotely to the same level. Plus as one gets older things like savings, home improvement, medical, ect take up more and more money as opposed to most of my paycheck being for stupid nerd crap. (Not even getting into space to store it, and time to properly utilize it all!)

And you know, I am pretty much cheap as poo poo. I don't mind spending money but I want value out of it. Why buy a 4-5 dollar comic book that is maybe 15 minutes of entertainment when that same amount gets me a game on Steam or IOS? (Speaking of a thing that has rapidly outpaced inflation. I was doing some inflation stuff for laughs and giggles in my Game Collection posts: http://wargamedork.blogspot.com/201...ngeons-and.html by my calculations comics should be under 2 bucks as opposed to Secret Wars issue 1 being five dollars. Marvel and DC books were 2 bucks back in the mid-late 90s. Given how comics are kind of in the same niche market as RPGs it is kind of appropriate but to be fair if you do look at inflation hobby gaming has generally kept closer pace with inflation, with 1977 vintage era White Box OD&D being 38 dollars in now money. Iron Kingdoms Unleashed starter box is 45 MSRP, though its cheaper online. More GOODIES in the box but it isn't remotely as complete a game as ODnD was.)

I look at how much crap I have and honestly I don't need or have much use for as much so price will matter. Once you add in all our modern tech and the fact you can get good products both old and new for free or under 10 bucks in a digital only format and it really does make these huge rear end inconvenient loving 60+ dollar coffee table monster RPG corebooks look a lot less attractive to longer term gamers or newbies who compare them to other products that on the surface seem similar.

(Like comparing Games Workshop model kits to what Bandai, Fine Molds, Kobo., Tamiya, ect are doing. GW doesn't come close in either quality or value.)

I mean I am planning on running a play by facebook post campaign because a friend who moved to the rear end end of nowhere W.Va wants me to run something. I ended up choosing Basic Fantasy because the rules are all free PDFs and even Lulu or Amazon printed versions are sub 10 bucks. (5 for core rules in softcover. I spent 10 for spiral bound because it is easy to use and keep open. They are GAME BOOKS. Spiral bound is fantastic for reference work.) Grab some Ravenloft modules from my collection and we have a campaign!

Though it seems like most folks want full color busy rear end massive doorstops of RPG core and expansion books. I am still happy with black and white sub 128 page count ones. poo poo, even for modern games I sometimes would rather just grab a PDF, edit the fluff out, and make a more useful and portable book out of it that fits on my ipad and won't give me a hernia!

Maybe I am just part of the problem because I don't want to spend stupid amounts compared to other forms of entertainment that are easier and cheaper even if hobby games stuff should maybe cost more than it does. I also irritate retro gamers because I don't think spending 100 bucks for a loose N64 Conker is anything other than loving ridiculous. Hell, I got my copy when it was on clearance racks for 10 and only kind of feel it was worth that.

I generally get gas station coffee over Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts because its like a third of the price. I am a cheap bastard and kind of proud of it! Though I bet some of the extenuating reasons I am cheap would make a Therapist slaver in delight...

And since I have so much of this silly nonsense I just don't need to pay 60 bucks for Deathwatch core or whatever Call of Cthulhu 7th is since I am happy with 5th even if it doesn't remotely look as pretty as the newer release will.

# ? May 7, 2015 17:51

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Isn't the reason something like Deathwatch is 60 bucks that it's all you need to play, where 5th ultimately requires something like 90-120 bucks before you're playing?

# ? May 7, 2015 18:22

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

People will pay $90 - $120 for D&D.

# ? May 7, 2015 18:42

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

moths posted:

People will pay $90 - $120 for D&D.

Ah, I just read the guy wrong. I read 5th as 5th edition D&D and not 5th edition Call of Cthuhlu.

# ? May 7, 2015 18:45

chin up everything sucks: Jan 29, 2012

moths posted:

People will pay $90 - $120 for D&D.

I paid $150 for one out of print book for WFRP 2e. I am one of those people. *sob*

# ? May 7, 2015 18:45

Serf: May 5, 2011

It's a special kind of grog who will blatantly disregard the whole of economic theory just to defend their $35 purchase.

# ? May 7, 2015 18:49

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

FireSight posted:

I paid $150 for one out of print book for WFRP 2e. I am one of those people. *sob*

Don't feel bad, I just spent 70 bucks on Synnibarr and I don't even want to play it.

# ? May 7, 2015 18:51

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Serf posted:

It's a special kind of grog who will blatantly disregard the whole of economic theory just to defend their $35 purchase.

Look, $35 is $35 okay?!?!

He's also an example of one of my other favorite kinds of econo-grog - the person who goes out of their way to tell you how cheap they are and how they don't spend money on anything and they buy gas station coffee instead of starbucks and clip coupons and wait for sales and buy used when they can, and then wonders why no company out there is going out of their way to cater to them.

:iiam:

# ? May 7, 2015 19:11

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

quote:

What is Dungeon World about? Honest question, I have no idea - I rail against Fail Forward as a GMing philosophy.

# ? May 7, 2015 20:39

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

FireSight posted:

I paid $150 for one out of print book for WFRP 2e. I am one of those people. *sob*

Wait, which one? I might want to sell all of a sudden.

# ? May 7, 2015 20:50

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Kai Tave posted:

It takes a certain dedication to cultivating your insufferability and lack of self-awareness to reach the stage where you can unironically describe something as a "social justice whinority" and not immediately be overcome by crippling shame.

It takes an even bigger dedication, I think, to use it on something that has nothing to do with social justice at all.

We're literally living in Stewart Lee's political correctness gone mad routine.

# ? May 7, 2015 20:58

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

quote:

I'm a bit surprised at the tepidness of the 5e defenders. Back when 4e was coming in, 4vengers were out in force to tell us that everyone who didn't immediately embrace 4e was an out-of-touch neckbeard who was going to be cast aside by history and so on and so forth.Saying not-nice things about 4th edition when it came out caused 4rries to pop out of the woodwork and flip the gently caress out. Hell, it got me banned from Dumpshock, a forum that was a fansite for Shadowrun.

Part of it is surely that 4th edition had much better crafted press releases to imply that it was successful and going to take over. More pre-orders than 3e, more opening week sales than 3e, a second printing before books were even on the shelves... that all sounded really good. People like me who said that 4e would not take over were on the run, and the 4rries felt they had a free hand to mock us. It wasn't for over a year that it really sank in that not only could those facts be cherry picked out of a barrel of fail, but that they actually were.

What does 5e have? It was #1 on Amazon... for a few hours... while offering forty percent discount just on Amazon. That's not nothing... but it isn't very much. Part of it is that the last edition very definitely spent a lot of time lying with statistics, so people are more incredulous when WotC makes crafted statements. But 5e's crafted statements don't even sound impressive.

The 5etards just aren't coming out swinging very hard for this one. The insults against non-adopters are tepid and half-assed. Like 5e itself.

-Frank

"5etards" huh?

quote:

As in, 5uckers are way more rare and also individually seem less vociferous than 4rries.

There, that's better!

quote:

But in answer to the question you apparently meant to ask... the thing to remember is that Bull is a poo poo stain who is always wrong about absolutely everything. Everything. So despite the fact that Bull was a quite proud supporter of the "D20 Gives You Cancer" catchphrase back when 3rd edition D&D was big and popular and good and strong, but as soon as 4th edition D&D (the edition that sucked and everyone hated), he jumped onboard.

I was, of course, quite critical of 4th edition D&D. Because it sucked, and I could see that it sucked right away. And in the off-topic board on that forum, I started making my case. Bull took the other side, and when it became clear that he wasn't getting the best of it, he pulled a new rule out of his rear end that people could only say negative things about 4th edition D&D in a special thread that allowed that, while people could say positive or neutral things about it wherever they wanted (including the thread that allowed negative comments).

So on the "no negative comments allowed" thread, Bull started gushing about his plans to make a Rogue with multiclass feats to take Wizard powers. I told him that since the Rogue required Dex and either Cha or Str to function and all Wizard powers required Int to function, and you only get to maximize two stats, that it would be more effective to pick a different combination. This simple fact got Bull so angry that he issued a temporary ban on me from logging in to Dumpshock. Because of the incredibly stupid way Dumpshock's forum code works (banned posters can't log in, and you can't check your messages without logging in), I didn't even find out what the gently caress that was about for a few weeks.

Now this is interesting for a couple of reasons. I mean, most obviously it's that Bull is a spoiled man child who throws temper tantrums at the mildest of provocations and shits all over the rules of his own forum just to bully people who don't agree with him about trivial bullshit. But it's also interesting in that the chargen rules in 4e are so restrictive and stupid that even telling people what they are feels like a prank.

But the reason I brought it up is because it was an example of the simple vehemence of the 4rries. It's really hard to imagine people swinging banhammers around to defend the honor of 5th edition. The drive by trolls we get from the 5e crowd keep driving. We haven't had one solitary Darwinism or Piniped come in here and pugilate for even a couple of posts. All we get is dipshits like Neon-Sequitor come in here and drop a single sarcastic post and then defend it in no way whatsoever after people tear it apart. But 4e was like that all the time and everywhere. Even on explicitly non-D&D forums the 4rries would come out swinging against the non-believers.

-Frank

Yeah, I bet Frank was all "Beep boop, that's not optimal, end of statement" like he always is and his ban was 100% capricious.

# ? May 7, 2015 21:02

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 2, 2024 16:13

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Plague of Hats posted:

Yeah, I bet Frank was all "Beep boop, that's not optimal, end of statement" like he always is and his ban was 100% capricious.

It's funny that people would defend one edition vociferously but not another one. What could be the meaning of this? The editions are different with different stuff in them, could that have something to do with it? Nah, I'm just going around in circles! I could crack this case if only Bugs Meany wasn't banning me from the forums.

Turn to the end of this book to see how Encyclopedia Frank solved the mystery!

# ? May 7, 2015 21:08

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Grognards.txt NEXT: Goodnight, Sweet Wince

«‹›190 »