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Vagabundo posted:She gives away that she's being contrarian for the sake of attention when it becomes clear she's either being dishonest about the content of the film, or hilariously disingenuous. Is she suggesting Marie Shear's definition of "feminism" is irrelevant? These two tweets in particular really stand out: @femfreq posted:"We are not things” is a great line, but doesn’t work when the plot and ESPECIALLY the camera treats them like things from start to finish. @femfreq posted:As a film Mad Max absolutely adores its gritty future. The camera caresses acts of violence in the same way it caresses the brides' bodies. Like...it's not even a question of opinions or interpretations, this just flat out isn't correct at all.
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May 21, 2015 20:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This is lost when the film is reduced to whether a female character uses a gun or not. Boy, if only people had discussed this very thing early in the thread. If only. No, people only went 'woman used gun, good."
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May 21, 2015 20:19
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I think you both have two good readings! I especially enjoy the pointing out of the two headed lizard. I may not have understood the symbolism of it at the time, but the imagery certainly stuck with me. I'm sure there are dozens if not hundreds of other references, symbols and visual metaphors int he film that I just didn't fully appreciate on the first viewing. That's why I enjoy these threads- to give me the tools to help comprehend what I saw. Great Rumbler posted:Like...it's not even a question of opinions or interpretations, this just flat out isn't correct at all. It's just contrarian axe grinding. Edit: VVVV Ding Ding Ding Just Offscreen fucked around with this message at 20:22 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 20:19
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Great Rumbler posted:These two tweets in particular really stand out: it's kind of hilarious how we have a few MRA sites saying this is disgustingly feminist and then we have anita sarkeesian saying it isn't at all. it's almost like neither of them really understands what the word or themes mean SuperMechagodzilla posted:This is lost when the film is reduced to whether a female character uses a gun or not. nobody's doing that though
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May 21, 2015 20:21
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I haven't read this forum since Prometheus came out and I can't believe you guys still let SMG post here. What is wrong with you people? Other than that thanks for all the fun pages of opinion. This movie is so incredible that it awoke a part of my brain that I thought died sometime around 1998 or so. Actual unencumbered love for a movie!
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May 21, 2015 20:22
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Great Rumbler posted:Like...it's not even a question of opinions or interpretations, this just flat out isn't correct at all. Yeah, the second is something that you can only get if you actively ignore the film. Mad Max doesn't glorify the broken future. It treats it as something to overcome and fixed. It doesn't emphasize "survival of the fittest" the way a lot of apocolyptic fiction does. it suggests that by exploiting the weak and emphasizing personal strength you lose the world. This applies to men and women in terms of the film. Nux is exploited as much as the brides are in his own way. He is the victim of a culture that suggests that violence and death and rage are laudable virtues and in doing so he is dehumanized and abandoned once he can't live up to those virtues. Nux is weak but his weaknesses are strength. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:28 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 20:24
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"We are not things" isn't even that great of a line. What makes it work is that they say it like five times, and then counter it with 'she said that and now she's DEAD.' Also, the way the scene is edited, it appears that Furiosa is about to shoot this woman for endangering them, before it's revealed that Furiosa's actually aiming past her - at two warboys approaching on a motorcycle. When those two are shot, she snaps out of it. That's another example of how the film tells the story in a concrete, visual way. Furiosa needs to be ruthless even to those she's protecting. They need discipline. MinibarMatchman posted:nobody's doing that though That's the twitter stuff people are still going on about. 'Caressing violence' or whatever.
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May 21, 2015 20:26
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I think people are misconstruing it as solely a film about femininity or feminism, when it's actually just a egalitarian statement. It has just as much to say about masculinity as it does femininity. " By embracing both aspects of society and creating a balance we become greater than ourselves Max embraces his feminine side, by bringing hope and the chance of rebirth, by being the lifegiver in a literal since, and by embracing what we would say is characteristic of masculinity, the women become greater than themselves. Films not a feminist agenda film, but it is egalitarian, which there is nothing wrong with that. I mean you have dual nature through out the film. Furiosa has her left hand severed and uses her right hand for violence. etc.. etc..
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May 21, 2015 20:29
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"We are not things" isn't even that great of a line. What makes it work is that they say it like five times, and then counter it with 'she said that and now she's DEAD.' I would have thought the "who killed the world" etching would have been a more poignant line for people to mull over, "we are not things" is pretty cut and dried. At least their chalkdrawn statement brings up a greater question than "we are not objects" because everyone becomes one at some point, woman and warboy alike. poo poo, even Max is a literal bloodbank for an extended period, and only turns this around into becoming a lifegiver when he uses that same equipment to save another person. He only becomes a person when he rechristens himself and says his name for the first time aloud. SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's the twitter stuff people are still going on about. 'Caressing violence' or whatever. It's funny because the cars and vehicles are more of a dangerous weapon to me than those guns. Vehicles seem more hallowed anyway, given the steering wheel worship and all. DLC Inc fucked around with this message at 20:33 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 20:31
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Hollismason posted:I think people are misconstruing it as solely a film about femininity or feminism, when it's actually just a egalitarian statement. It has just as much to say about masculinity as it does femininity. Nope. This is the result of a distorted view of feminism which assumes that it has nothing to say about masculinity at all. It's assuming that a film that says something about the cultural view of masculinity can't be feminist. As I said earlier, this is a film about the patriarchy, and part of the issue with the patriarchy isn't just how it treats women but how it encourages men to act, which in turn influences women. The film certainly speaks about masculinity and cultural impact on masculinity but that doesn't make it not feminist.
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May 21, 2015 20:32
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It's also interesting that Immortan Joe can only do two things with women, save them or use them, but not work with them. Max actually works with the women.ImpAtom posted:Nope. This is the result of a distorted view of feminism which assumes that it has nothing to say about masculinity at all. It's assuming that a film that says something about the cultural view of masculinity can't be feminist. The film uplifts the virtues of masculinity , but derides the negative aspects of it. It has clear masculine statements. The best way to be a man is to be able to show strength through cooperation and use those strengths for others. Not browbeat every one into submission. It's almost Nietzsche like in its philosophy of what shows a true man. I think it's something like " Man wants two things danger and play, women are most dangerous". Then the whole, not actually showing strength through brow beating but through confidence that you have strength. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 20:37 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 20:33
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"We are not things" isn't even that great of a line. What makes it work is that they say it like five times, and then counter it with 'she said that and now she's DEAD.' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk-5RVMerfI (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 21, 2015 20:35
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A brutal critique of everything ever, is a pretty great description and quote about the film.
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May 21, 2015 20:39
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MinibarMatchman posted:I would have thought the "who killed the world" etching would have been a more poignant line for people to mull over, "we are not things" is pretty cut and dried. At least their chalkdrawn statement brings up a greater question than "we are not objects" because everyone becomes one at some point, woman and warboy alike. poo poo, even Max is a literal bloodbank for an extended period, and only turns this around into becoming a lifegiver when he uses that same equipment to save another person. He only becomes a person when he rechristens himself and says his name for the first time aloud. The point of characters like The Organic Mechanic is that people are things. The 'pagan-spiritual' fertility symbolism is supplanted by the simple materiality of the undeveloped fetus in the woman's body. Hollismason posted:"By embracing both aspects of society and creating a balance we become greater than ourselves Nah, the heroes sow disharmony and discord. There's no pagan universe split between male and female 'principles' that must be harmonized. At the end of the film, we do not see the production of a couple, but Max disappearing into the crowd.
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May 21, 2015 20:46
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Hollismason posted:The film uplifts the virtues of masculinity , but derides the negative aspects of it. Not in the slightest. The act of violence is portrayed as regrettable and terrible and nobody who is presented as a non-terrible person is happy about it. The most heroic moments from the two male cast members involve self-sacrifice to save lives, not killing people. Max's most 'badass' violent moment occurs entirely offscreen and when he returns he literally washes the blood off his body with mother's milk. The action is well-shot and interesting to watch but it also is careful to emphasize that this is bad and that you shouldn't be happy about it. The positive aspects are presented as either gender-neutral or feminine. There's very little in the way of sheer masculine praise. "Gender-neutral" is important because the film redefines 'masculine' acts as not being exclusively masculine without portraying that as unusual. The act of being a competent fighter, the act of being good with guns, the act of killing, are recontextualized as not belonging to either gender. The film is against the toxic masculinity but what it keeps of traditionally masculine element it takes and goes "this isn't masculine, this is human." The characters who are sheer unfiltered masculinity are the villains. Even the positive aspects. "This is my brother, he was perfect in every way" is spoken about a dead child while his dead mother is dehumanized and ignored. It presents brotherhood hand-in-hand with ignoring motherhood. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:50 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 20:46
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George miller is a great storyteller goddamn Watched babe again the other day and I forgot there's people on stilts in that movie too. Anyhoo I thought a great thing that dr miller has repeatedly stated in interviews adds greatly to the thematic density of the film in a very clear way: everything in the movie is designed with dual purposes. He actually means goddamned everything-- from religion to steering wheels to leather bags. I caught the bags only my second time through...
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May 21, 2015 20:47
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Hollismason posted:I think people are misconstruing it as solely a film about femininity or feminism, when it's actually just a egalitarian statement.
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May 21, 2015 20:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The point of characters like The Organic Mechanic is that people are things. The 'pagan-spiritual' fertility symbolism is supplanted by the simple materiality of the undeveloped fetus in the woman's body. Careful! In the eyes of god that fetus is absolutely a person. As are those 5 women Immortan Joe desperately wants. The Doof Rider, though, he's something else. His wires that string him up are basically a zillion umbilical cord.
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May 21, 2015 20:53
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The point of characters like The Organic Mechanic is that people are things. The 'pagan-spiritual' fertility symbolism is supplanted by the simple materiality of the undeveloped fetus in the woman's body. Furiosa has half her face painted Black and half her Face is white at the beginning of the film, which evokes imagery of Yin / Yang or the feminine an masculine of her nature, her left hand is severed and replaced, (I'd have to go back and rewatch but I'm pretty sure she only kills with her right hand). Furiosa is the product of harmonization of the male and female embodiment, Max really on serves as the Catalyst in the film for her transformation into actual savior. Max only becomes a person once he realizes his ability to bring life to Furiosa , literally, he becomes a surrogate mother to her feeding her with his milk, and then states his name. The films full of dual imagery of the dual nature of man and woman. ImpAtom posted:Not in the slightest. The act of violence is portrayed as regrettable and terrible and nobody who is presented as a non-terrible person is happy about it. The most heroic moments from the two male cast members involve self-sacrifice to save lives, not killing people. Max's most 'badass' violent moment occurs entirely offscreen and when he returns he literally washes the blood off his body with mother's milk. I disagree, it shows that the true strength of the masculine aspect is by lending that strength to others not wielding it over them. I agree that it does have a feminist tone to it, but it's not a feminist film, it's egalitarian by showing the weaknesses of masculinity which yes in itself are a feminist statement, but that doesn't neccessarily make this a feminist film.
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May 21, 2015 20:55
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atrus50 posted:George miller is a great storyteller goddamn Bags? MinibarMatchman posted:Careful! In the eyes of god that fetus is absolutely a person. As are those 5 women Immortan Joe desperately wants. The Doof Rider, though, he's something else. His wires that string him up are basically a zillion umbilical cord. I have never seen a person happier, more at peace with the world and existence, than the Doof playing that flaming guitar.
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May 21, 2015 20:56
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Hollismason posted:Furiosa has half her face painted Black and half her Face is white at the beginning of the film, which evokes imagery of Yin / Yang or the feminine an masculine of her nature, her left hand is severed and replaced, (I'd have to go back and rewatch but I'm pretty sure she only kills with her right hand). i know we are just talking bullshit at this point, but The Ace has the exact same half black warpaint, and other random warboys do it too  
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May 21, 2015 20:58
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Great Rumbler posted:These two tweets in particular really stand out: Yeah, a film review isn't valid if you're critiquing the movie you made up and not the film on screen. I, for one, hated the skydiving stunts in The Godfather and feel they undermined the narrative. The Anime Liker fucked around with this message at 21:02 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 20:59
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Just Offscreen posted:Bags? Bags! There's two in the movie. One filled up and clutched insanely filled with seeds, the other filled up with antiseeds
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May 21, 2015 21:02
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Hollismason posted:I disagree, it shows that the true strength of the masculine aspect is by lending that strength to others not wielding it over them. Except that it presents that as a feminine virtue as well. Masculinity = strength is certainly a thing but Mad Max is careful to avoid doing that. There are physically strong men and women and neither is presented as being particularly abnormally so on the hero side. Joe's son is presented as being a behemoth of a man but he's basically a walking talking example of why Joe's mindset is harmful to everyone. Even when he's sympathetic (again, mourning his brother), he does so in a way that underlines that. It doesn't deride men or claim that all traditionally masculine elements are bad. Instead it argues that many of the positive aspects are gender-neutral, and the mindset that connects them to masculinity is Immortan Joe's culture. Which is, again, a fairly feminist reading. Hollismason posted:I agree that it does have a feminist tone to it, but it's not a feminist film, it's egalitarian by showing the weaknesses of masculinity which yes in itself are a feminist statement, but that doesn't neccessarily make this a feminist film. What would make it feminist and not egalitarian?
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May 21, 2015 21:02
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Hollismason posted:I agree that it does have a feminist tone to it, but it's not a feminist film, it's egalitarian by showing the weaknesses of masculinity which yes in itself are a feminist statement, but that doesn't neccessarily make this a feminist film. Where exactly are you drawing the line between "feminist" and "egalitarian"?
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May 21, 2015 21:02
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atrus50 posted:Bags! There's two in the movie. One filled up and clutched insanely filled with seeds, the other filled up with antiseeds :erichavingheadexplodegif: Whoa dude.... Also I'm so glad SMG turned up, haven't read his stuff since the Godzilla thread so really enjoying this.
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May 21, 2015 21:05
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Okay for reference Yang - White with Black , Yin - Black with White Yang - Masculine , Penis - Male in nature Yin - Feminine , Vagina - Feminine in nature. The War Boys are literally running around and screaming " I am a PENIS" The Brides are completely white and Furiosa is the black part of their Yin. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 21:11 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 21:06
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Hollismason posted:Furiosa has half her face painted Black and half her Face is white at the beginning of the film, which evokes imagery of Yin / Yang or the feminine an masculine of her nature, her left hand is severed and replaced, (I'd have to go back and rewatch but I'm pretty sure she only kills with her right hand). "[The Big Other persists] in the guise of the New Age, Jungian re-sexualization of the universe ('men are from Mars, women are from Venus'), according to which there is an underlying, deeply anchored archetypal identity which provides a safe haven in the flurry of contemporary confusion of roles and identities. From this perspective, the ultimate origin of today's crisis is not the difficulty to overcome the tradition of fixed sexual roles, but modern man's unbalanced emphasis on the male/rational/conscious aspect at the expense of the feminine/compassionate one. While sharing with feminism the anti-Cartesian and anti-patriarchal bias, this tendency rewrites the feminist agenda into a re-assertion of archetypal feminine roots repressed in our competitive, male, mechanistic universe." -Zizek, The Big Other Doesn't Exist This New-Age spirituality isn't egalitarian-revolutionary, but a retreat from freedom. Instead of overcoming the tradition of fixed sexual roles, the New-Age approach reinforces these roles - makes them into something 'natural'. Women are told that they are naturally 'submissive', 'compassionate', 'self-sacrificing', and so-on. In actuality, the ultimate form of woman's servitude is to (mis)perceive herself, when she acts in a "feminine" submissive-compassionate way, as an autonomous agent.
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May 21, 2015 21:09
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Hollismason posted:It's like if he ate a crucifix at the beginning of the film and you said " You don't see how that symbolizes the loss of male virulence". Does a crucifix represent virility? The 2-headed animal symbolizes fertility, right? Fertility obviously has connections with a spouse and child, memories of which Max is trying to stamp out. I don't see any contradiction between these interpretations. You're right on the money about Max and Furiosa becoming like a husband and wife, birthing a revolution.
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May 21, 2015 21:10
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atrus50 posted:Bags! There's two in the movie. One filled up and clutched insanely filled with seeds, the other filled up with antiseeds Antiseeds, antiseeds...where?. See this is why I need to see it again.
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May 21, 2015 21:12
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A GLISTENING HODOR posted:Yeah, a film review isn't valid if you're critiquing the movie you made up and not the film on screen. gently caress you, michael kicking mccluskey into the helicopter blades was rad as hell
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May 21, 2015 21:12
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thehomemaster posted::erichavingheadexplodegif: Just Offscreen posted:Antiseeds, antiseeds...where?. See this is why I need to see it again. SEE IT AGAIN DRAG YR FRIENDS AND ENEMIES
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May 21, 2015 21:12
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Just Offscreen posted:Antiseeds, antiseeds...where?. See this is why I need to see it again. Antiseeds = bullets You plant them in something that's alive and it dies.
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May 21, 2015 21:12
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Just Offscreen posted:Antiseeds, antiseeds...where?. See this is why I need to see it again. "Bullets are a seed you plant in someone and they die." Anti-seeds are bullets.
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May 21, 2015 21:13
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Ah, thanks all!
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May 21, 2015 21:14
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I agree that the stamp and the crushing of the lizard is him stamping out his thoughts of his past failurs, but the action symbolizes that not the actual lizard itself. That's what I disagree on.SuperMechagodzilla posted:"[The Big Other persists] in the guise of the New Age, Jungian re-sexualization of the universe ('men are from Mars, women are from Venus'), according to which there is an underlying, deeply anchored archetypal identity which provides a safe haven in the flurry of contemporary confusion of roles and identities. From this perspective, the ultimate origin of today's crisis is not the difficulty to overcome the tradition of fixed sexual roles, but modern man's unbalanced emphasis on the male/rational/conscious aspect at the expense of the feminine/compassionate one. While sharing with feminism the anti-Cartesian and anti-patriarchal bias, this tendency rewrites the feminist agenda into a re-assertion of archetypal feminine roots repressed in our competitive, male, mechanistic universe." Please stop quoting Zizek. No one cares, your actual comments are fine. I don't care what Zizek says, no one here does. This is just intellectual wankery. No one is discussing the true nature of feminism and you've actually not given a argument, just paraphrased what was previously quoted, that our view of feminism is flawed because the New Age movement still views it from the male dominated perspective. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 21:17 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 21:14
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Fury Road is intellectual.
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May 21, 2015 21:17
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Fury Road is actually Happy Feet part 3.
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May 21, 2015 21:18
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Hollismason posted:Please stop quoting Zizek. No one cares, your actual comments are fine. I don't care what Zizek says, no one here does. This is just intellectual wankery. Yeah I gotta agree. Noone actually cares what Zizek said, we want to hear what you have to say. Except for WoodrowSkillson, of course.
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May 21, 2015 21:18
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The anti-seed descriptor really sells the earlier image of the bullets falling in the pregnant woman's lap.
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May 21, 2015 21:19
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