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BrianWilly posted:This show isn't about the dissolution of identity. Honestly, its own whole tagline of "What if you had seven other selves" was super misleading. It stopped being about having seven other selves the minute that those selves started falling in love with each other. Riley is not the same self as a Kenyan bus driver and Wolfgang is not the same as Californian hacktivist. No one's individuality was diluted by being a sensate; if anything, it was strengthened. I think it's definitely about blurring identity. These people are strangers but react as though they know each other, they don't seem to fear or be concerned about their sudden connection (other than Nomi when she's worried she's going crazy). They hop in and out of each others lives and both help and observe as though they're actually there. I totally agree it's about the dissolution of walls, but I think it goes beyond just sharing themselves with each other. Their connection seems to allow them to literally feel and experience each other like it were their own body, more than just empathizing. Who knows how it will end up but I think they're just learning what it means to be sensates, I think as the story goes on they'll start to not only experience each other but become each other. We see this happen physically and emotionally already, I think we'll see them blur the line as individuals more and more as the series goes on. Right now they seem to have their own agency, but they're babies, I think they'll just start to make decisions as a group without even having to come to consensus eventually.
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Jun 23, 2015 00:33
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You're all right in different ways and I was thinking about this earlier. The story isn't about identity as an abstraction, but rather the experience of having an identity, existing where you do in space and time, and how those experiences in turn shape the way you interact and connect with the world. The lives the characters lead aren't clichéd, they're the lives that regular people lead, and aside from Lito being a telenovella star and Wolfie being a diamond thief, none of the characters really lead out of the ordinary lives. By shifting around these different people into each other's lives, it serves as a backdrop for exploring difference and what it really means. What does an arranged marriage mean to a German man? How does a businessperson in Seoul relate with a bus driver in Nairobi? This is the point of the show above anything else. Now, all that said, I think the show is absolutely gonna go the way Dr. Metzger predicted with the dissolution of the ego and the lines between the sensates as individuals becoming more and more blurred. When you begin to break through the boxes you've been in all your life, what's really left? The show can then speak about multiplicities of identities. What's life like for an Indian trans woman, or a gay man in Africa, or a foreign businessperson navigating London's night scene? There's so many places things can go from here, and for a show that was billed as being about identity and difference, I really hope it can reach that potential.
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Jun 23, 2015 01:13
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Snak posted:I love Capheus's worship of Van Damme, because JCVD is such a douche in real life, but that doesn't matter because Capheus is inspired to act righteously. Because of Capheus' innate almost indestructible innocence (as witnessed with the English tea, fireworks, and air travel, as well as ending his relationship with the crime lord who's name I can't remember right now). I feel he will be the cluster's bulwark against ennui and depression regarding the odds they are facing.
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Jun 23, 2015 03:57
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ElCondemn posted:Who knows how it will end up but I think they're just learning what it means to be sensates, I think as the story goes on they'll start to not only experience each other but become each other. We see this happen physically and emotionally already, I think we'll see them blur the line as individuals more and more as the series goes on. The Icelandic sensates warning regarding love within a cluster being rather narcissistic and ugly would make a lot more sense if clusters tend towards a blurring of identity until it's one mind in 8 bodies. If two of those bodies are dating, it's exclusionary for the other 6, while also being highly ego-centric, given that it's basically just dating your own clone. She's not the most reliable source, and the fact Jonas and Angelica seemed to have a thing suggests it's not a definite outcome - but then, Jonas himself is an unreliable source, and his cluster may not have developed to that point or something.
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Jun 23, 2015 04:34
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Samizdata posted:Because of Capheus' innate almost indestructible innocence (as witnessed with the English tea, fireworks, and air travel, as well as ending his relationship with the crime lord who's name I can't remember right now). I feel he will be the cluster's bulwark against ennui and depression regarding the odds they are facing. I'll believe his relationship with that crimelord is over when I see it. I'm really afraid that Capheus's story is going to be about how even bad people can start out with the best intentions.
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Jun 23, 2015 04:36
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tsob posted:The Icelandic sensates warning regarding love within a cluster being rather narcissistic and ugly would make a lot more sense if clusters tend towards a blurring of identity until it's one mind in 8 bodies. If two of those bodies are dating, it's exclusionary for the other 6, while also being highly ego-centric, given that it's basically just dating your own clone. She's not the most reliable source, and the fact Jonas and Angelica seemed to have a thing suggests it's not a definite outcome - but then, Jonas himself is an unreliable source, and his cluster may not have developed to that point or something. I'm okay with that. Even if my own clone wouldn't date me...  Snak posted:I'll believe his relationship with that crimelord is over when I see it. I'm really afraid that Capheus's story is going to be about how even bad people can start out with the best intentions. I am tending to think, barring some seriously wholesale slaughter, said crimelord is basically finished after Superpower bitchslapped him. Which is sad for his daughter and all. Besides, said crimelord also owes Capheus massively, and I would like to think the crimelord's prior behaviour shows he values honor.
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Jun 23, 2015 06:33
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I've come close to crying near the end of every episode, and I'm (usually) by no means an emotional person. This is just such a beautifully human show - really tugs at your heartstrings.
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Jun 23, 2015 07:16
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Just finished this show and while I loved every minute of it I can't help but think it would be better if they dropped the conspiracy/Whispers angle entirely. Just exploring the characters being connected while dealing with the obstacles of their lives and trying to understand what has happened to them would be enough. Every time Jonas, Whispers, or anything involving BPO showed up it brought the "flow" of the show grinding to a halt. The conspiracy is the least interesting plotline of all, in a show where one of the plots is a girl getting cold feet at her wedding.
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Jun 23, 2015 08:52
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I've come close to crying near the end of every episode, and I'm (usually) by no means an emotional person. This is just such a beautifully human show - really tugs at your heartstrings. Esroc posted:Just finished this show and while I loved every minute of it I can't help but think it would be better if they dropped the conspiracy/Whispers angle entirely. Just exploring the characters being connected while dealing with the obstacles of their lives and trying to understand what has happened to them would be enough. Every time Jonas, Whispers, or anything involving BPO showed up it brought the "flow" of the show grinding to a halt. The conspiracy is the least interesting plotline of all, in a show where one of the plots is a girl getting cold feet at her wedding. Agreed with everything in this post.
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Jun 23, 2015 10:23
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Without an antagonist there'd be no show. The threat from BPO and Whispers is what compels the cluster to find each other and work together. I think the problem is that he's too comic booky "evil" and should be developed with more nuance or showing his POV in which he's heroically trying to save mankind. So far he's only been portrayed as a sadistic sneering villain.
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Jun 23, 2015 11:09
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Binary Logic posted:Without an antagonist there'd be no show. The threat from BPO and Whispers is what compels the cluster to find each other and work together. But the show clearly has enough antagonists or plot points even without the BBEG. The majority of this show isn't even about Whipsers or his goons. Everyone has a struggle going on without him; this is even in the OP. The only difference from the OP's list and the show is that Nomi's real enemies are TERFs  I agree that he is way too comic book evil right now. Hopefully something meaningful is fleshed out with Whispers next season because right now he just seems like a mustache-twirling analogy for depression. It's like he's that "little voice in your head" trying to make you doubt yourself, except he wears a top hat and cape and ties up your good feelings to railroad ties. Plus his scenes added nothing of substance so far except to distract the story from some really genuine character development. I guess I just really hope Whipsers wasn't thrown into the show's pitch because they thought a sci-fi story needed a tangible villain. I just going to operate on the principle of charity right now because the rest of the show was so good and say that if it gets picked up they'll figure this dude out properly. Renounced fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 11:35
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Frankly, I think Whispers needs to step up his game. When you think about it, he basically fails to accomplish every single objective he had this season. The only thing that sort of went his way was getting his hands on Jonas, and that was only because Will caught the guy.quote:Whispers: Ohhh Angelica I knoooow you won't kill yourself~ BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 12:18
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Renounced posted:But the show clearly has enough antagonists or plot points even without the BBEG. The majority of this show isn't even about Whipsers or his goons. Everyone has a struggle going on without him; this is even in the OP. The only difference from the OP's list and the show is that Nomi's real enemies are TERFs Yea, I think I'd prefer it, at least after just one season, if it had been a show about a group of disparate people who have a mysterious connection and use it to help each other out of the poo poo that clogs up their lives while becoming better and more understanding people because of it. Without Whispers it would definitely be more episodic, and the problems in each's lives would have to change at least once a season, but there's nothing wrong with that. Plenty of drama shows manage to make it work as is. BrianWilly posted:If this is how Whispers usually runs his operation, I'm still not really sure how in the world he was able to hunt down any other sensates or why they wouldn't just kick his face off. My favorite part is that he already had one drone body in the bag and then sacrificed it to kill Metzger without even guaranteeing Nomi's body to replace him. I understand that he presumably killed the body so the cops would have no need for an investigation, but he spent two resources and got nothing for it if looked at objectively. If he'd just left Metzger to chastize later, and sent the drone body after Nomi then he might have gotten far more. tsob fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 12:34
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OK, I can't really read this thread too much because of spoilers, and I only watched episode 4 last night. But the last 15 minutes or so of that episode was just like... some of the best stuff I have ever seen on television in a really long time. I am so glad I pushed through the pilot (which was rough) because the series got a lot better after that, and this episode just totally loving knocked my goddamn socks off. And that's hard to do for me. And it did it with that freaking 4-Non-Blondes song. And it was perfect oh my god it was PERFECT. It reminded me of one of my absolute favorite moments in any film ever (the cast of Magnolia singing along to "Wise Up" by Aimee Mann) except of course, this time there was an actual reason for them all to be singing along together, but whatever. The point is that it was HUGELY emotionally resonant, and that pretty much anyone who was conscious in the '90s has some emotional connection to that song, and as dumb as it is it's the sort of song that everyone sings along to in their car when they're alone. So it's this, like... really perfect cultural touchstone for that moment, and the whole moment just freaking *works*. I don't expect the whole series to be THAT great or transcendent all the time, but it actually feels like I'm watching something really special now, and not just another sci-fi series. That episode just totally elevated the material to another level. And even though Amanita is like way too perfect a girlfriend to exist, the relationship between her and Nomi is one of the sweetest and most adorable things ever.
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Jun 23, 2015 12:37
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Was it bad I caught myself singing along to "What's Going On?" (learned from the He-Man cartoon?)
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Jun 23, 2015 18:48
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BrianWilly posted:Whispers is bad at his job. I think it's plausible that the cluster this show focuses on is "special" in the sense that they seem to be a perfect storm of useful skills for getting out of situations. It's possible Whispers is more used to clusters that are less proficient at so many different things and as a result he went on this hunt unprepared. Sun being a badass martial artist is already a skill that gets outright abused by the plot in multiple instances. Then you have Will's police training, Kala's medical/chemical knowledge, Wolfgang's willingness to gently caress poo poo up and lack of fear, Van Damme's determination and ability to drive like a bat out of hell, Nomi's hacking skills, and Lito's ability to lie well and manipulate people. Really the only "useless" sensate in the cluster is Riley, but she's obviously intended to fill a mother role to the other sensates and be the anchor that holds them all together so she still has an important purpose. So viewing it from that angle I can somewhat buy the idea that Whispers is a little in over his head and this season was him using tactics that worked on past clusters, but won't work on this one. That's gonna be my head-canon for now, at least.
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Jun 23, 2015 19:40
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Esroc posted:I think it's plausible that the cluster this show focuses on is "special" in the sense that they seem to be a perfect storm of useful skills for getting out of situations. It's possible Whispers is more used to clusters that are less proficient at so many different things and as a result he went on this hunt unprepared. This is honestly a pretty reasonable assumption, and that fact feels like it cheapens the whole premise of being senseate in the first place. It's not really an interesting story outside of character development if they're all gods at what they do AND senseate. They're basically superheros by the end of the season because of these two factors and I think that is why I felt the later episodes suffered. Though I guess them being bad-asses is better than them saving each other ~~through the power of friendship~~. Just wish they'd tone down that complete bad-assery a little bit. Just a little though... because Wolfgang 
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Jun 23, 2015 20:15
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Renounced posted:This is honestly a pretty reasonable assumption, and that fact feels like it cheapens the whole premise of being senseate in the first place. It's not really an interesting story outside of character development if they're all gods at what they do AND senseate. They're basically superheros by the end of the season because of these two factors and I think that is why I felt the later episodes suffered. Though I guess them being bad-asses is better than them saving each other ~~through the power of friendship~~. Just wish they'd tone down that complete bad-assery a little bit. I'm ok with them going a bit over the top, the visuals are stunning and totally worth it. I mean, the bus van damme kicking the bad guy? brilliant!
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Jun 23, 2015 20:21
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Actually I think there are several scenes that subtly and/or not-so-subtly indicate that the selection of sensates wasn't entirely by accident. When Sun talks to her father the first time, she mentions that "pharmaceutical stock" has been devalued, which indicates that their company is in business with the company where Kala works, which is also the company (if scene cuts are to be believed) that Capheus' suppliers are getting their drugs from. On top of this, Daniela reluctantly mentions to Lito that her father is in "import/export." Incidentally, all of this info is revealed in the exact same episode: episode 3. Coincidence?  nuuuuuu
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Jun 23, 2015 22:24
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BrianWilly posted:On top of this, Daniela reluctantly mentions to Lito that her father is in "import/export." I thought that was a euphemism for drug dealer, personally
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Jun 23, 2015 22:33
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Rarity posted:I thought that was a euphemism for drug dealer, personally Yes, which is why it fits...
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Jun 23, 2015 22:38
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I think Whispers is gonna pan out to be a better villain than most people are predicting. Really, we've barely seen anything about him (which is why I'm a little surprised everyone is writing him off entirely), but he finally made eye contact with Will right at the end and now he's gonna get to be present basically whenever he wants once Will stops being comatose.
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Jun 23, 2015 22:57
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Philip Rivers posted:I think Whispers is gonna pan out to be a better villain than most people are predicting. Really, we've barely seen anything about him (which is why I'm a little surprised everyone is writing him off entirely), but he finally made eye contact with Will right at the end and now he's gonna get to be present basically whenever he wants once Will stops being comatose. Maybe when we learn his story it will be about how his awakening as a sensate was not good, and he is a very intolerant biggot and he wants everyone to conform to his ideology. We know he likes/wants to literally control people, so it would make sense if his ideology was diametrically opposed to the sort of tolerant and progressive ideas represented by our protagonist cluster.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:07
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They couldn't have picked a better song for the finale. Sigur Rós is perfect for this show. Holy poo poo, this is so good! There better be a season two.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:10
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Noctis Horrendae posted:They couldn't have picked a better song for the finale. Sigur Rós is perfect for this show. Holy poo poo, this is so good! I really, really hope there's a season 2. I'm optimistic because I feel like this is something the Wachowskis want to make even if it's not a big financial success. How has the critical reception been? I don't generally pay attention to things like that...
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Jun 23, 2015 23:22
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Snak posted:I really, really hope there's a season 2. I'm optimistic because I feel like this is something the Wachowskis want to make even if it's not a big financial success. From what I've seen its ranged from "good" to "meh" with a fairly hefty amount of "zomg homosex ewwww" thrown in. But most reviews are positive, with the negative reviews mostly being summed up as "saw first episode and there was gay stuff, 0/10 would not watch again". And since homophobes obviously aren't the demographic this show is reaching for, I think chances for a season 2 look good.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:27
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I won't be satisfied until this show has like 300 episodes. This is such a cool concept.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:37
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Samizdata posted:Was it bad I caught myself singing along to "What's Going On?" (learned from the He-Man cartoon?) I'm pretty sure you're doing it wrong if you don't sing along! 
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Jun 23, 2015 23:58
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kaworu posted:I'm pretty sure you're doing it wrong if you don't sing along! Whew!
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Jun 24, 2015 03:15
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I don't know what to watch on Netflix anymore. Nothing will beat this show. I hope season 2 comes out within a year or two  .
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Jun 24, 2015 06:38
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Renounced posted:I loved all the but the first and last episode of the show, but the average rating on Netflix last time I could see it was only 2 stars. I wonder how many people gave up on it after the first episode because it made no sense and was just all over the place plot wise. It doesn't seem to be getting any press anywhere else either. The pilot is truly terrible. Someone should have realized that a show like this would need a really strong pilot. I can see why people who are not necessarily sci-fi fans would watch an episode and choose to pass. It's unfortunate too because the show gets much better and draws you in as it goes on. One thing that hurts this show is the all-in-one release. I think it works for some of their shows, but a show like this needs to be digested slower. It needs a week of discussion between episodes. This would have been a great series to test a slower release schedule.
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Jun 24, 2015 21:24
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Niwrad posted:The pilot is truly terrible. Someone should have realized that a show like this would need a really strong pilot. I can see why people who are not necessarily sci-fi fans would watch an episode and choose to pass. It's unfortunate too because the show gets much better and draws you in as it goes on. I don't agree, I think it only works because the whole season is available at once. Like you said the first episode was pretty slow and things don't really ramp up until probably episode 3. By having it all available at once it probably increase the chances that viewers will watch enough to become invested and finish it. If they had released it on a weekly schedule the viewership drop off would be huge, especially since the first few episodes were so slow, that's how TV shows die. It's definitely an uncommon approach to serial TV, most try to make a pilot that explains everything, presents big stakes, and ends on a cliffhanger to suck in viewers for next week. That tv show style is very formulaic and common, though I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, I just think it wouldn't work with this show. This series was able to use the serial TV format to tell the story in a natural way with good pacing to really get you invested in the characters. I think a lot of the Wachowski stuff could benefit from this format, at the very least their movies would be a little less dense and maybe a bit more enjoyable.
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Jun 24, 2015 21:37
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So, this identity talk is nice but given the creator's history I read the show in a more technological way as being about the internet. It's not theoretical, humanity has evolved to be able to start relationships with beings on the other side of the world and share information in seconds. Most of the scenes could be explained by the inclusion of Skype in place of the sensate abilities. With that in mind it becomes a lot closer to The Matrix. Maybe I just like thinking about it this way because it gives me something to do during the mythology scenes which were really bad. As for the Nomi debate, I don't think she is doing anyone any favours by being so repetitive and token, but she had overtaken Riley, Will and Kala by the end of the show. I don't think its any coincidence that the best characters also had the least to do with the actual plot. If you only get five minutes an episode and you have to spend most of that spouting exposition you're not going to be the most fleshed out character. It really makes me wish that they had gone the one episode - one character route that LOST had. Kala's story would have been fine as an hour but in small chunks over a season it lacks. The balance was pretty off for most of the season, but given how experimental the show is that's to be expected. Hopefully they nail it next season (I hear they have plotted five?).
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Jun 25, 2015 02:39
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If they've plotted five, they better find a way to give us those five even if there's no season two. Even Jericho-style half assed comic books would suffice.
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Jun 25, 2015 03:01
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I would not have watched episode two if it had been week to week.
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Jun 25, 2015 03:07
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I won't be satisfied until this show has like 300 episodes. This is such a cool concept. Yes but the abilities were very underutilized. I binged watched it in a day and it really does crawl. Hours go by and there's very little interaction between the characters. Its like a real time training montage and is very dull at times. I tried to give it thought, and I think it would have benefited from an inclusion of others in the cluster early on, confused and watching a scene that otherwise was just Character 1-8 and their own supporting cast. The slow development of the skill sharing was also very plodding. They demonstrated it early with the first fight, they just left it on the back burner. Huge pain for me as an audience member when I knew there was a skill set available that would be a cool way to escape the situation, but being blueballed repeatedly.The last three episodes finally start using the concept well, and even then in limited showings. I feel like the initial writing was a few key scenes where they collaborated and then the rest of the story had to be written around the climaxes. As far as viewer response it doesn't help the show that as liberal as it was, the LGBT message was very ham fisted. The first few episodes were really awkward in the way they treat it. Its not a casual introduction of characters/people who just happen to have that lifestyle, its in your face and poorly done.
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Jun 25, 2015 04:15
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If they had dropped all five seasons at once would you have stuck with it? Having an endpoint is what got me through the weaker parts, if that endpoint were another 48 episodes away I would have given in.
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Jun 25, 2015 04:15
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so the wachaowskis figured out how to tell cloud atlas in a way that makes more sense the first ep gives off a kind of heros vibe and as episodes progress the literal fuckery develops into something akin to homestuck im up to ep10 and holy hell the cinematography is truly beautiful but god drat, dad bonding lesbian sex montage
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Jun 25, 2015 08:48
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Viginti posted:If they had dropped all five seasons at once would you have stuck with it? Having an endpoint is what got me through the weaker parts, if that endpoint were another 48 episodes away I would have given in. I feel the exact opposite. Twelve episodes weren't enough for me. I don't want an endpoint.
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Jun 25, 2015 09:26
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I might be trying too hard to hunt for bad guys in waiting, but I didn't see Kala's fiance as the great guy some of you have seen. Mostly because he doesn't seem all that bothered by her lack of enthusiasm, maybe? I don't even get the feeling that he's in love with her so much as she's checked all the boxes in the list of things that he wants. I think they left her story hanging because it seems to be the miniature version of the whole story. If their marriage goes through, then I can see her husband being much like his own father is towards his mother. Sort of like how Whispers seems to be Jet Li's The One-ing through all the other sens8s.
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Jun 25, 2015 10:17
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