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dr_rat posted:From what I think is the same poll It does say people involved in terrorism, rather than people accused of being involved in terrorism. I think it's a dumb idea, but removing the citizenship of people actually convicted of being terrorists probably isn't the end of the world.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:33
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But Terrorism could be re-defined as anything, hell we're probably only a few years away before torrenting a Disney movie is cyber-terrorism against an intellectual property 
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Jul 6, 2015 13:36
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That's true. Maybe my own window is shifting.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:38
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open24hours posted:It does say people involved in terrorism, rather than people accused of being involved in terrorism. I think it's a dumb idea, but removing the citizenship of people actually convicted of being terrorists probably isn't the end of the world. There are a bunch of questions that need to be answered before we can form an opinion on this, like: are these people currently in australia, in which case why don't we just process them here rather than booting them overseas to become somebody else's problem? If they've been convicted of terrorism here why don't we let the courts handle it, and if they already have wouldn't that imply they had already paid the legal penalty for their crimes, in much the same way that you're not allowed to arbitrarily decide that criminal embezzlement deserves vigilante castration after the prison sentence has expired? If the convicted terrorist has been convicted in another country, how can we be sure that the conviction would have held up in an Australian court - what about David loving Hicks? But it doesn't matter because all of this is somehow predicated upon the assumption that the justice system as we know it is incapable of or unwilling to deal with the crime of terrorism, which begs two questions: 1) why did we give the cops all those ridiculous police state powers to spy on us and detain us illegally if they don't achieve anything or aren't being used, and 2) why don't we try to resolve the problems in the justice system before saying "nah gently caress it" and starting the snowballing process of pushing responsibility for managing justice and order over to arbitrary political offices with no oversight or expectation of fair and equitable treatment?
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Jul 6, 2015 13:41
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open24hours posted:That's true. YES! 
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Jul 6, 2015 13:45
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Jul 6, 2015 13:46
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:There are a bunch of questions that need to be answered before we can form an opinion on this, like: are these people currently in australia, in which case why don't we just process them here rather than booting them overseas to become somebody else's problem? If they've been convicted of terrorism here why don't we let the courts handle it, and if they already have wouldn't that imply they had already paid the legal penalty for their crimes, in much the same way that you're not allowed to arbitrarily decide that criminal embezzlement deserves vigilante castration after the prison sentence has expired? If the convicted terrorist has been convicted in another country, how can we be sure that the conviction would have held up in an Australian court - what about David loving Hicks? Yeah, I was assuming the conviction was in an Australian court. Having thought about it a bit more I think it probably is the end of the world.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:47
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Anidav posted:Fine, let me use a more acceptable mainstream media term. SKREEEEE
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Jul 6, 2015 13:51
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
open24hours posted:Yeah, I was assuming the conviction was in an Australian court. Having thought about it a bit more I think it probably is the end of the world. Especially given that the justice system here is the system to which we hand responsibility for law and order (and punishment). Using that system as the qualifying basis* to then further punish people is absurd, it's like saying you have to pay taxes to the ATO and then we'll use your taxation record with the ATO to impose arbitrary further post hoc taxes on you. If they're taxes, they should be handled through the ATO. If it's a crime, process it through the justice system. You can't take someone who has committed a crime, been found guilty and then served the sentence for that crime, and then have non-judicial bodies saying on a case-by-case basis, "Great news! You've won the ex-con jackpot, you're destined for the rape pits on Nauru." If being castrated and hung from a tree is the desired punishment for a crime, then do it through the justice system. * That's already attributing far too much credit to them. As far as I can tell, they literally are aiming at a law that says the minister can remove the citizenship of anybody, and the sneaky weasel words about "suspected of terrorism" won't hold up to anything in the actual application. Even the talk about dual citizenship is their way of saying "we're willing to meet you halfway" when the real discussion should be "this is loving ridiculous, you should be stripped of your position immediately for even suggesting it, go gently caress yourself and die alone". Sulla Faex fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 13:52
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Quantum Mechanic posted:SKREEEEE Is this the end of Obamacare?
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Jul 6, 2015 13:54
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If The Daily Telegraph, Herald Sun, Daily Mail etc. has taught me anything it's that most people don't give a poo poo about human rights, the principles of law and due process as long as the bad guys get what they deserve. And the bad guys are anyone ethnic, or with a terrorist beard, or that came by boat - If they aren't guilty then they shouldn't have been going around being ethnic, beardy or hanging around in a warzone.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:55
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Pred1ct posted:If The Daily Telegraph, Herald Sun, Daily Mail etc. has taught me anything it's that most people don't give a poo poo about human rights, the principles of law and due process as long as the bad guys get what they deserve. The bad guy is essentially anybody they say it is, which includes political whistleblowers and people who detract from the economic goals of them or their sponsors. Julian Assange and Edward Snowden are super bad guys, and so are those filthy savages who protest against clear-cut logging or the undermining of employee rights.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:57
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http://thehackernews.com/2015/07/Italian-hacking-team-software.htmlquote:A few hours later, the list of alleged Hacking Team customers, including the past and current clients, was posted on Pastebin. The most notable and previously unknown ones are the FBI, Spain, Australia, Chile, and Iraq, among others.
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Jul 6, 2015 15:22
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Journalist Wilfred Burchett, had a sort of similar thing happen to him. After losing his Australian passport he was denied another by the Australian government because of his coverage of the Vietnam and Korean wars in support of the commies (he was a massive communist). While some of his reporting was pretty troubling, like writing in support Maoist China and Stalinist Russia (including the purges in Bulgaria), as well as Pol Pots regime, although that one he recanted after visiting Vietnamese, Cambodians refugee camps later, he was still a great journalist, being the first foreign journalist to visit Hiroshima -on the day Japan formal surrender- and the first western journalist to talk about radiation sickness and nuclear fall out. Happy ending to this all - One of the first things Whitlam did when he was elected was give Burchett a replacement passport.  ...After he had already missed his fathers funeral due to being not being allowed back in the country.  Sulla-Marius 88 posted:0% support for fascism is still a pretty good number and that's why I'm firmly opposed to researching cures to things like avian flu. There is a way out - it's not pretty, but it's there. ...sometimes Auspol scares me.
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Jul 6, 2015 15:26
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I was kidding. Although I do firmly believe that if we're going to let extreme right-wing neoliberal super-nationalist genocide-supporting fuckheads get front page on national newspapers and not be torn apart, we should give equal footing to anybody willing to express equally off-centre positions, such as the beheading of all non-muslims or the complete dissolution of private property or the forced sterilisation of all men once their sperm has been harvested by the ministry of population control.
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Jul 6, 2015 15:34
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So confirmation that ASIO (or at least some Australian department) is using spyware to remote into target computers I guess? Unfortunately after the Snowden leaks that doesn't particularly surprise me much. I just sort of assumed as part of the 'five eyes' countries we would be doing similar things. Still disturbing though, also that were outsourcing it. I'm not sure its better or worse that were outsourcing it to a company thats to incompetent to compartmentalize/separately encrypt that sort of data so you can just grab all of it at once you get access.
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Jul 6, 2015 15:36
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dr_rat posted:Happy ending to this all - One of the first things Whitlam did when he was elected was give Burchett a replacement passport. What are legitimate, not-Liberal, criticisms of Whitlam? The man sounds like a legend. Raised in an upper-middle class family in nice suburbs in Melbourne/Sydney, attended fancy grammar schools, flew bombers in WW2, became a barrister but switched gears to then became a reforming socialist prime minister. Did I get that right?
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Jul 6, 2015 15:40
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Just watched Q&A and somehow Richard Marles was the worst participant, on a panel with Greg Sheridan no less. It's like Greg was given the order from on high to lay off a little. And Larissa Waters... 
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Jul 6, 2015 15:42
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d3rt posted:Raised in an upper-middle class family in nice suburbs in Melbourne/Sydney, attended fancy grammar schools, flew bombers in WW2, became a barrister but switched gears to then became a reforming socialist prime minister. Did I get that right? If you're interested in Whitlam hagiography this is worth listening to http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/the-eternal-gough-whitlam/5830546
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Jul 6, 2015 15:45
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:I was kidding. Yeah, I wouldn't mind extreme right-wing neoliberal super-nationalist genocide-supporting fuckheads having an article or two in the news, as long as long as we had a far large number of ideas being representative as well, and they were just another in the bunch rather than the driving narrative. Honestly the only one of those policies I would have any issue being discussed is the beheading of all non-muslims, just because its a threat of specific violence against a specific group. In a democracy if you can't have discussion about particular topics, you're doing democracy wrong, and while I do think we can actually discuss a wide range of ideas in Australian society, is is really awful that by and large the popular media doesn't stray far form the neo-libreal talking points promoted by the LNP/ALP. Did sort of assumed you were kidding on the avian flu thing, although I have meet people who claim to actually believe that... so you never know.
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Jul 6, 2015 15:54
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Dicks on the Herald Sun  http://i.imgur.com/s3oEJH2.jpg http://i.imgur.com/bSPV7CM.jpg http://i.imgur.com/PRAYkcp.jpg http://i.imgur.com/JoZNtfp.jpg
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Jul 6, 2015 16:00
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d3rt posted:What are legitimate, not-Liberal, criticisms of Whitlam? The man sounds like a legend. He was absolutely poo poo in regards to Timour Leste, basically giving Indonesia the go ahead to invade. He also wasn't to great on some economic matters, like when he got the government involved in a pretty dodgy attempt to get a foreign loan Other than that he was pretty great, and I would defiantly say our best PM, probably since federations. Although I honestly don't know much about Pre-Menzies PM's so could be wrong on that one.
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Jul 6, 2015 16:07
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dr_rat posted:In a democracy if you can't have discussion about particular topics, you're doing democracy wrong, and while I do think we can actually discuss a wide range of ideas in Australian society, is is really awful that by and large the popular media doesn't stray far form the neo-libreal talking points promoted by the LNP/ALP. Democracy is predicated on an informed populace of which the media is supposed to inform. Our last election saw the country vote in a government encompassing all the characteristics they were told they were voting out.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:15
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Nibbles! posted:Democracy is predicated on an informed populace of which the media is supposed to inform. To be fair the media did inform the public that Abbott was not literally the same person as Kevin Rudd. Like Tony Abbott wasn't just Rudd wearing a scary mask or something. And the media were pretty successfully at this. Polling showed by the time the elections were held that very few Australians did believed they were the same person. I think all those photos and videos of them in the same room at the same time really helped with this. Sure they missed out mentioning he was a person of far worse policies and capabilities then Rudd, but it seems the public didn't think those sort of facts were particularly relevant to the election so the media didn't bother with them.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:27
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:I was kidding. I've been following this a fair bit and it's amazing just how hard they've been busted. They've been selling stuff to embargoed countries and stonewalling UN investigations into it. Australia paid them somewhere around ~360k USD for exploits. Egypt was buying exploits off them during the Arab Springs. People have found receipts from governments for $2.4M USD contracts. After a Canadian university published a report on how dodgy they are the company handling their DNS pulled them. They then got the Italian police to formally request that they be put back in the system. All customers have now been told to stop using their products by Hacking Team.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:20
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Birb Katter posted:I've been following this a fair bit and it's amazing just how hard they've been busted. They've been selling stuff to embargoed countries and stonewalling UN investigations into it. Australia paid them somewhere around ~360k USD for exploits. Egypt was buying exploits off them during the Arab Springs. People have found receipts from governments for $2.4M USD contracts. Just found this image half an hour ago and didn't know if I'd ever get a chance to post it. I guess this company goes some way to filling out that 29%.  If you like next time I'm in Milan I'll find their offices and leave a drawing of a penis in their letterbox
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Jul 6, 2015 23:31
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:Just found this image half an hour ago and didn't know if I'd ever get a chance to post it. I guess this company goes some way to filling out that 29%. Next time you're in Milan they won't have offices. There isn't much chance they can come back from this. Some staff have already announced they're brushing up CV's.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:34
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Ma questa è l'Italia  They might not get so much business as they did before but in terms of justice or being shut down for breaking a bunch of international laws... I find it difficult to believe there'll be carabinieri kicking down their doors anytime soon. Guardia di finanza, maybe, if they haven't been paying taxes
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Jul 6, 2015 23:35
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:Ma questa è l'Italia The UN has been after them for at least a year so maybe this will help spur things along.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:42
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Birb Katter posted:The UN has been after them for at least a year so maybe this will help spur things along. Well in that case I wish them luck. The cynicism might be infectious
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Jul 6, 2015 23:53
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Curtis Pitt appears keen to release as much good news from his first budget as he can ahead of its release next Tuesday. The state's Treasurer, who won't have the luxury of announcing new infrastructure projects or mass spending injections when he hands down the budget he has spent three years prepping for, announced a $750 million vocational education and training package on Monday as the LNP handed down its own economic plan for the future. While both the Opposition and the Government have accused the other of not having a plan to turn the state's finances around, both proposals rely on growth and the development of new industries to achieve that aim. Mr Pitt said he had found an additional $139 million to boost the government's training and skills package to $754.6 million. That includes the reinstatement of Labor's $60 million Skilling Queenslanders for Work program and $231.6 million for the Certificate III Guarantee, which formed part of the Newman Government plan to allow Certificate II holders to receive free training in priority areas. Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk has already announced the budget would include a focus on research and development, which formed the base of her recent trade mission to the United States. Mr Pitt has also promised that Labor would maintain a net operating surplus, which the LNP was on track to deliver before it lost the election. Other initiatives include tax breaks for employers of apprentices and continuing the first home owners grant. But in an attempt to soften bad news, Mr Pitt followed the well-worn path of Treasurer's past and announced a $3 billion write down in royalties over the next years three weeks ahead of the next budget. Pundits are predicting a fairly tame first budget that is low on surprises, with Mr Pitt having already announced "modest" spending, although Labor is expected to move the goal posts regarding the state's debt. Mr Pitt has always referred to the operating debt – around $46 billion – rather than total debt,which is the $80 billion figure used by the LNP, and an operating surplus, as opposed to a fiscal surplus. Critics, including the LNP, claim this will make the books look better than they actually are. Mr Pitt has said they were the figures used by most other states, considering government-owned corporation debt is considered self-servicing and therefore should not be part of the state's owings.
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Jul 7, 2015 01:08
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So it looks like Ray Martin might actually come out swinging for the ABC. I am wondering if the Government will A) Attack Ray Martin B) Ignore the Report C) Both For bonus fun, read the comments about known "Leftist" Ray Martin and how the audit is rigged. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/qa-auditor-ray-martin-derides-tony-abbotts-silly-frontbench-boycott-20150707-gi6lal Don't. Never read the comments SMH posted:The man chosen to conduct an independent audit of Q&A, television veteran Ray Martin, says he cannot believe Prime Minister Tony Abbott has ordered his frontbenchers not to appear on the ABC program until his inquiry is complete. Freudian Slip fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 02:46
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d3rt posted:What are legitimate, not-Liberal, criticisms of Whitlam? The man sounds like a legend. It is an unfortunate fact that he accidentally politicised the appointment of public service heads. The principle was that you appointed based on fitness for the job and expected frank and fearless advice. Unfortunately as the first non Tory government in Australia for 25 years every single departmental secretary had strong ties to the Liberal and conservative apparatus generally and DID act against the intentions of the Whitlam government. This prompted a number of 'partisan' appointments. People who knew him better than I expressed some reservations about his racial and feminist soundness along the way and it's hard to be too harsh on him regarding Timor. He was dismissed on 11 November 1975 and Indonesia invaded on 7 December 1975. Hard to see what he could have done to stop it. The loans affair was the equivalent of Pink Batts. The reason the Treasury's Loans Committee was bypassed was entirely due to the entrench conservative participants who leaked every detail of government finances that they could in the hopes it might damage the Whitlam government. They were spectacularly successful. Forty years later Labor is still wedged on economic policy despite having a stellar record. -/- Court talk. I know we got here tangentially but there seems to be a really worrying assumption in this discussion that the courts meet out punishment. Our judicial system rejected that approach before 1900. The idea is that prison rehabilitates individuals with the aim being that they return to society less likely to offend. The punitive, retributional and deterrence effects are all seen as secondary if important or suitable at all. Parole exists so that offenders can be given access to rehabilitation services that directly assist in the reintegration into society. Or put another way the freedom of the individual is returned gradually with conditions imposed (such as psychological counselling for sex offenders) to ensure reintegration is achieved. The Murdoch press truly has done it's job when we start casually calling our prison system punishment. Even more so with terrorists. We shouldn't be seeking to punish them. That implies (as the Torys want) that they are other than us. Bring them home. Have them face the courts. If convicted have the prison system rehabilitate them. In those few extreme cases (Ivan Milat, Martin Bryant) where the need to keep someone separate from the community overrides any consideration of rehabilitation then so be it. I bet those cases are few and far between. Moreover the output becomes a trickle of people who can be used in deradicalisation programs. Or we can go the other road and do what Robben Island did for Nelson Mandela (another convicted terrorist). -/- Free trade chat. It just so happens I'm doing my serious bsznz reading into just that. Free Trade 101 - The theoretical basis. Oddly enough knowing the underpinnings helps to clearly point toward the problems. Here's what's at the heart of the concept, the doctrine of convergence or convergence economics. Basically it asserts that lesser developed countries have a higher capacity for growth and that by this growth they will eventually equalise with the existing developed nations. Sounds pretty good. Even if you have to break a few eggs along the way? For instance labour in the cheaper nations will undercut the wages in the affluent countries creating prosperity for themselves at the expense of the perceived surplus prosperity enjoyed by workers in the developed countries. Yeah. Nope. And that's before we get to the assumed theoretical conditions that are wilfully ignored by the major exponents: * Capital should be restricted from flowing from a high wage to a low wage country * There must be a BALANCE of trade between the participants * There should be FULL EMPLOYMENT in participating nations * There should be perfect competition with no monopolies or oligopolies. Free trade is wealthy bankers using economics to calculate the smallest amount of lubricant necessary to shaft the rest of the world (including their own economies).
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Jul 7, 2015 02:55
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Freudian Slip posted:So it looks like Ray Martin might actually come out swinging for the ABC. They should get Andrew Bolt to do the review.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:06
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ZDNet has a nice Aussie write up of the Hacking Team business. €245,000 spent on hacking 5 individuals.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:30
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There are a bunch of companies that do the same sort of thing. They don't do much more than sell rebranded copies of Backtrack for thousands of dollars and governments are only too happy to buy it. The whole industry looks like a money factory.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:33
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Birb Katter posted:ZDNet has a nice Aussie write up of the Hacking Team business. €245,000 spent on hacking 5 individuals. Guessing Rudd spying on Indonesia.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:47
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Amoeba102 posted:Guessing Rudd spying on Indonesia. AFP doesn't do international spywork.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:51
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There was a goon who did forensic work for the AFP, they posted a bit about it in SH/SC a while ago. I'll see if I can find the posts.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:57
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If I'm remembering correctly their username was Gromit.
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