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Autonomous Monster posted:I think I do prefer to read people writing about things they like than things they hate, but I'm also British, and thus congenitally inclined to disapprove of overt displays of emotion. this thread must be a rollercoaster for you then
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Jul 24, 2015 18:29
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Can he only do scifi shows? Because I'd like to see these guys writing about Garth Marenghi's Darkplace.
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Jul 24, 2015 19:03
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Toxxupation posted:look. you need to know how much work i put into these goddamn reviews Don't think docbeard's thread lets you off the hook for also reviewing Farscape.
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Jul 24, 2015 19:57
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CountFosco posted:Can he only do scifi shows? Because I'd like to see these guys writing about Garth Marenghi's Darkplace. Even the episodes that only aired in Peru?
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Jul 24, 2015 19:59
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Doctor Who "Time Heist" Series 8, Episode 5 I. Love. Heist movies. I love them. They're one of my favorite genres of film to watch. Heist films are unique in the genre due to the fact that, unlike most films which have some level of resolution or forward movement sprinkled throughout their runtime, heist movies instead have zero action or momentum until their final act. All heist movies, instead, are built off having two acts of pure setup and focus with the final act being this one, long, explosive release. A good heist movie is like good sex - it's an incredibly long build for a really powerful payoff that utilizes everything that came before it. Heist movies come with their own problems, obviously. They're very top-heavy: the first act is usually focused on assembling the heist "team;" the second is focused on planning the heist; and the third and final act consists of the heist itself, and whatever complications may arise. What this means is that if the heist is unsatisfying or is otherwise disappointing, the entire film falls apart because that's all it was building towards. Secondly, heist films are ninety minutes of "boredom" with fifteen minutes of "action" - most of their runtimes are spent having people talk about what they're going to do without ever, you know, doing it. If the movie is poorly acted, badly paced, or otherwise faulty, the setup becomes an interminable slog that isn't validated by an otherwise fantastic climax. The buy-in is too high to make the payoff worth it. Finally, and most crucially for "Time Heist", is the fact that heist movies are based off overtly lying to the audience. In every heist movie, there comes a point (usually in the second act) wherein the protagonist explains in full detail exactly how the heist will be accomplished, if everything goes one hundred percent according to plan. It's at that moment where the movie has just bald-faced lied to the viewers. The heist will not go off as planned, because if it does then it breaks one of the fundamental laws of cinematic storytelling; you don't have an onscreen character explain what's about to happen, and then just blindly follow that through. Why? Two reasons: One, it's repeating the same information twice, with no meta-narrative or symbolic necessity demanding the intentional repetition. Worse still, it's having a character telling what's about to happen, and then pointlessly showing it onscreen. Two, and more importantly, having a character explain how the third act will resolve eliminates any narrative stakes the heist itself has - the audience is already aware of exactly how everything will happen before it does, thereby making all events within it pointless. Heist films therefore have a conundrum, wherein they've explained how the heist will be accomplished - and they do this to illustrate the foresight, knowledge, and skills of the protagonist(s), and the intricacies of their plan - but ironically, in doing so, have made it impossible for the movie in question to ever use that plan within its narrative. Therefore, the movie has to prove the protagonist's plan as a lie, which it does in one of two ways as well: The first, and more honest, way is for the plan to go wrong - some essential piece of the puzzle or cog in the machine fails, or the antagonist(s) have set up a security precaution unbeknowst to the protagonists that they only discover mid-mission that somehow makes their plan impossible to execute - which then forces the protagonists to improvise. The second way is for the plan to fail, but the plan having failed was always part of the larger plan that was never revealed to the audience until the exact moment when the dummy "plan" failed. The second way is the way I prefer my heist movies to resolve themselves. There's a certain sort of thrill in being duped, for the protagonists to be so smart and so clever that they come up with a brilliant plan that could work only for it to be revealed as an intentional distraction all in service of the meta-plan they implemented. But it's also an incredibly dishonest form of storytelling, and on an objective level it's a problematic way to impart a narrative. Heist movies only function by lying to the audience repeatedly, by playing three-card monty with the viewer, making them look for the queen when the film itself knows that it's actually been under the table the whole time. That's the central dichotomy of heist films, though, right? The audience wants to be fooled, but doesn't want to be lied to. But you can't really have one without the other. Well, until this episode, that is. The amazing thing about "Time Heist" is that it's a heist movie that avoids all of those tropes, and the way it does so is also incredibly fascinating. By having the inciting event of The Doctor and his posse wiping their minds willingly before the heist is performed, this story allows the audience to be on the same level as the participants. "Time Heist" is as much an episode about the Doctor et al trying to figure out what the plan is as it is an episode about them accomplishing it. It really is quite clever, and the strongest point in its favor; the mind-wipe mechanic allows Doctor Who to have its narrative cake and eat it too. Since everyone involved in the heist doesn't actually know what the heist is, they can (and do) end up enacting it perfectly while still keeping an air of mystery to the story being told. The mind-wiping conceit also allows for the episode to eliminate setup and jump straight into the heist itself; over two acts of assembling the crew and going over the plan, The Doctor and his team are given an in medias res introduction and are expected to learn the plan as they go along. This means that from the very beginning of "Time Heist", there's forward action and payoff, something most heist narratives aren't able to accomplish. Basically, "Time Heist" is an inversion of the traditional heist story. Instead of showing the audience the plan at the beginning and having the story revolve around how the plan changes, it codifies the reveal of the plan as part of its climax. It's a really clever inversion that gives the episode its unique feel, while also respecting the audience; the protagonists in a heist caper, for once, know as much as the audience, so the discovery of the plan is something that both groups arrive at together over knowledge the characters have but the viewers don't. That's why I appreciate "Time Heist" as much as I do; it's a very cerebral appreciation, and as a huge fan of the genre I enjoyed how it was as much a deconstruction and avoidance of the narrative pitfalls and inherent shortcomings of heist movies as it was a piece of televised entertainment in and of itself. I like it in the same way I love Inception, a movie that was a clear inspiration for Steven Moffat when he co-wrote this episode; Inception is a movie that uses the heist movie "formula" and instead makes it an incredibly personal story built around character progression and arcing. On an objective level, that interests me because its aims are so atypical and the way it approaches them so against the grain of the expectations of the genre. Of course, Inception accomplishes so much more on a narrative and emotional level than what "Time Heist" does, not to mention their vastly different aims, so the similarities between the two media begin and end with "attempt to address the heist genre in a different way". But I still do like "Time" a fair bit. Part of that's because of how beautifully shot an episode "Time Heist" ends up being. The cinematography, lighting, and the set design in the beginning of the episode is all top-loving-notch, especially the scenes immediately outside and in the lobby of the Bank of Karabaxos. The transitions, especially, are incredibly clever, and as a whole the episode has a certain level of production quality that isn't usually present in most hours of Doctor Who. All that being said, "Time Heist" is still riddled with problems from beginning to end. As is tradition with most Doctor Who stories, the supporting characters are incredibly flat and one-note. What makes it weird is the fact that there's only two supporting characters - cyber-human Psi (Jonathan Bailey) and shapeshifter Saibra (Pippa Bennett-Warner). The relatively tiny supporting cast would make one naturally assume that they'd be explored more fully, but instead, they both get one and only one scene to relate their similarly-tragic backstories - and hilariously, they're back-to-back, as if the episode wants to just dump all the requisite "Sad Feelings" moments as so much ballast before continuing on. It's weird, as well, that in an episode that I specifically pointed out was an inversion and specific deconstruction of the heist genre that the episode still has weird pacing issues. The second act of the episode, once The Doctor, Clara, Psi, and Saibra are in the bank and looking for the vault, feels a bit overlong and somewhat meandering; Psi and Saibra are both killed off in what should be "emotional" scenes that come across as shrug-inducing since they're both so non-existent as characters. Outside of that it's the team running down what is very clearly the same corridor just colored with different lights to "appear" different and a definite sense of wheel-spinning for the climax. The antagonist was as cliched a Moffat antagonist as they come; even for someone who loves River and most of his "strong female characters" I have to admit the dual characters of Ms Delphox/Director Karabaxos (Keeley Hawes) were incredibly tired, Moffat reaching into his bag of tricks one too many times. A snappy, stone-hearted broad who mine as well be the Queen Bitch archetype personified? Say it ain't so. The climax worked on the cerebral level; revealing the Architect to be The Doctor made narrative sense, the reveal that Ms Delphox was a clone of Director Karabaxos made sense. The fact that The Doctor seeds his own involvement in the heist by giving Karabaxos his phone number made sense. The Teller being revealed to be working against his will because his wife or whatever was imprisoned? That, too, made sense. But none of it really resonated. Part of it was because it felt like a grab bag of every single one of Moffat's narrative quirks - time-loops, power of love, self-causation, oh my! - but more importantly none of it felt meaningful because it didn't happen to characters I cared about. I wasn't personally invested in the outcome of The Teller or his whole tragic romance, so it all just sort of washed over me. I gained the same sort of satisfaction from the climax as I did when watching "Blink" (to a lesser extent, obviously); the appreciation of a story well-told, but that's about it. There was no emotional stakes I had in the outcome, so it all came and went with no real effect on me. Finally, though, and most damningly, my largest criticism lies in the Clara of it all. Why is Clara in this story? Seriously, why? She has no purpose or real desire to be here, considering Psi and Saibra are motivated by material reward and The Doctor out of a sense of obligation and Moffat-brand time-loop self-causation bullshit. Clara has no purpose to be in this story, since she provides no special skills or plot-critical support to The Doctor. I mean, she even has a reason not to be in this story - a date with Danny which The Doctor literally shanghais her away from for...what? What part of the plan to break into the Bank of Karabaxos required Clara? It's just weird. Oxx put it best when he asked me, "How many of Clara's lines during the episode aren't questions?" It's like Clara only exists within the story to play dumb and ask what The Doctor's doing. That's it. Clara not being in The Doctor's story would've worked out much better for everyone involved. She could've been either cut from the episode entirely, or they could've intercut the heist narrative with scenes from Clara and Danny's second date (which would've removed the second act's pacing issues). Less time having to give lines to Clara means that Psi and Saibra could've been given more screentime and, subsequently, deepened more fully. "Time Heist" ends up being, on the balance, a really disappointing episode. As I aforementioned, I. Love. Heist movies. , but even with that caveat it comes across as a story I like the idea of over the execution. Nowhere is this more plain than the fact that I ended up rewatching this for review and could barely stomach it. The first time, I was spellbound by the conceit and ideas on display to notice the massive, glaring narrative and character flaws it had, but the second time through was a loving trial. I still like it, but that's...kinda...it. That's all I feel. I "like" it. Grade: C Random Thoughts:
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Jul 25, 2015 04:42
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Clara is there because the Doctor is showing off. It's funny, I rewatched this episode just tonight and I thought that for an episode of Doctor Who, they actually did a good job of fleshing out Sabra and Psi. Probably my expectations have just been battered down. quote:OH MY loving GOD I LOVE CLARA'S OUTFIT THIS EPISODE OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD IT'S THE MOST ADORABLE THING EVER OH MY GOD. OH MY GOD I LOVE CLARA'S OUTFIT THIS EPISODE. OH MY GOD. IT'S THE MOST WONDERFUL OUTFIT CHOICE DOCTOR WHO HAS EVER MADE OH MY GOD.
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Jul 25, 2015 04:52
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Toxxupation posted:I wasn't personally invested in the outcome of The Teller or his whole tragic romance, so it all just sort of washed over me. I gained the same sort of satisfaction from the climax as I did when watching "Blink" (to a lesser extent, obviously); the appreciation of a story well-told, but that's about it. There was no emotional stakes I had in the outcome, so it all came and went with no real effect on me. I'm curious, how do you feel about that in comparison to the same kind of story turn in Hide? It seems like you took issue with the version in Hide a lot more than this one! Toxxupation posted:Something being so bad it makes me go "gently caress this" as I'm watching has to be especially egregious, which is exactly how I reacted to the whole "This isn't a ghost story, it's a...love story!" reveal. Spatula City posted:oh dear I'm afraid for Toxx's reaction to a certain future episode now.
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Jul 25, 2015 04:56
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caretaker_%28Doctor_Who%29 In which Clara's space dad is very disappointed.
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Jul 25, 2015 05:30
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If you like heists and bad tv, maybe you should review Hustle. It runs the 'second super secret plan we had all along because we knew we'd be foiled' thing every single week.
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Jul 25, 2015 05:33
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Man, I loving love Time Heist. The memory worms, the guy's head melting/deflating, the reveal that the director's future self called the Doctor to save her from the biggest regret in her life... ...on the other hand, I forgot about the part where Psi and Saibra "die," and the whole "the Teller only melts brains for love!" thing. I dunno, the memory of it was so much better than it was, I guess.
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Jul 25, 2015 05:41
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Toxxupation posted:I. Please tell me you've watched Leverage. The quality is too consistent for me to suggest you review it but the show is literally 77 one-hour heist movies. It's an extended love letter to the genre. And as someone who's interested in the way television works, you'd love the commentary tracks too.
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Jul 25, 2015 05:56
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I love The Caretaker. I rewatched it with a big goofy grin on my face. Ridiculous stuff like the Doctor putting on a brown coat to "blend in" and approving when he thinks Clara is dating a Matt Smith lookalike, the montage of adventures at the beginning, the Doctor's rant about Danny messing up his plans because he has "a swimming certificate" and Danny leaping over the dinosaur robot that can apparently destroy the world. It's also the episode where the major theme for this series comes into focus, as the Doctor's dislike for soldiers meets Danny's hatred of officers and it turns into a tension between social classes, the poor enlisted men sent marching into No Man's Land by the guffawing oblivious toffs, etc. "I'm the one who carries you out of the fire. He's the one who lights it." I always feel horribly put of my depth when talking about the deeper bits of writing but I think the thematic stuff in this series is maybe the strongest I've seen on this show, which is admittedly a children's show written by an insane goblin.
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Jul 25, 2015 06:03
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Toxxupation posted:I. Holy poo poo. You just made me realise The Producers is a classic heist movie. 
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Jul 25, 2015 06:05
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The bit in The Caretaker where the Doctor thinks Clara's dating the dude who looks like Matt Smith is incredible. I think I liked this episode more than most other did when it aired.
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Jul 25, 2015 06:07
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Organza Quiz posted:Please tell me you've watched Leverage. The quality is too consistent for me to suggest you review it but the show is literally 77 one-hour heist movies. It's an extended love letter to the genre. And as someone who's interested in the way television works, you'd love the commentary tracks too. Leverage is good. Hustle is better.
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Jul 25, 2015 06:16
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Danny did a flip
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Jul 25, 2015 06:26
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Toxxupation posted:OH MY loving GOD I LOVE CLARA'S OUTFIT THIS EPISODE OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD IT'S THE MOST ADORABLE THING EVER OH MY GOD. OH MY GOD I LOVE CLARA'S OUTFIT THIS EPISODE. OH MY GOD. IT'S THE MOST WONDERFUL OUTFIT CHOICE DOCTOR WHO HAS EVER MADE OH MY GOD. Oh, right. This is the episode where I went into the other thread and said something to the effect of, "Daaaaamn, I'm gay and somehow I'm still turned on." Blasmeister posted:Danny did a flip Power Rangers every time I see this. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Jul 25, 2015 |
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Jul 25, 2015 06:27
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Blasmeister posted:Danny did a flip I thought I remembered that flip being even more ridiculous but I probably just remembered Twin Snakes enough times since watching that I just assume it was.
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Jul 25, 2015 06:30
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Stuporstar posted:Holy poo poo. You just made me realise The Producers is a classic heist movie. Well, he's describing a form of narrative structure, really. Describing it quite well, too! But I think it's a little too handwavey to call The Producers a classic heist movie.
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Jul 25, 2015 06:32
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Leverage is so good in a sweet, low key way. It's more in the con artist than heist genre most of the time though, although they do commit a few heists here and there. also it is very much a STICK IT TO THE MAN type of show where most of the bad guys the heroes are loving with are 1-percenter types. During one of my Dark Periods I used it as a bedtime show, a kind of upbeat palate cleanser for a miserable day.  also I need to revisit The Caretaker. I was underwhelmed at the time, but I think if I revisited it I'd probably love it. The Doctor is cranky spacedad. He is uncomfortably mean to Danny, though. The alien thing is exceptionally silly, and looks like the head of a Mass Effect alien grafted onto a pimped out remote control car.
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Jul 25, 2015 06:35
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ashpanash posted:Well, he's describing a form of narrative structure, really. Describing it quite well, too! But I think it's a little too handwavey to call The Producers a classic heist movie. Well, it involves a massively audacious grift and ends with them in jail after blowing up a building. If that doesn't scream heist movie to you, I dunno what to tell ya. Also, when I say "classic" I'm referring to the original with Gene Wilder, not Matthew Broderic doing an impression of Gene Wilder decades later. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Jul 25, 2015 |
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Jul 25, 2015 06:36
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Toxxupation posted:Finally, though, and most damningly, my largest criticism lies in the Clara of it all. Why is Clara in this story? Seriously, why? Toxxupation posted:OH MY loving GOD I LOVE CLARA'S OUTFIT THIS EPISODE OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD IT'S THE MOST ADORABLE THING EVER OH MY GOD. OH MY GOD I LOVE CLARA'S OUTFIT THIS EPISODE. OH MY GOD. IT'S THE MOST WONDERFUL OUTFIT CHOICE DOCTOR WHO HAS EVER MADE OH MY GOD. Well it looks like you answered your own question.
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Jul 25, 2015 06:38
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Stuporstar posted:Also, when I say "classic" I'm referring to the original with Gene Wilder, not Matthew Broderic doing an impression of Gene Wilder decades later. You know, it's SA, not Reddit. We're probably at least close in age to each other and everyone reading. quote:If that doesn't scream heist movie to you, I dunno what to tell ya. Screams "farce" to me, but I'm not any more right than you are wrong.
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Jul 25, 2015 06:50
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ashpanash posted:You know, it's SA, not Reddit. We're probably at least close in age to each other and everyone reading. Fair enough. I didn't notice the heist DNA in the structure until Toxx laid it out here, and it's definitely more farce for sure.
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Jul 25, 2015 07:00
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Blasmeister posted:Mr. PE did a flip Could a maths teacher do that?
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Jul 25, 2015 07:02
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adhuin posted:Could a maths teacher do that? What, do a flip? Sure, it's just math. What, dodge lasers? No, it's just math.
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Jul 25, 2015 07:04
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I really love Time Heist. It's clearly style over substance, but everything about it, down to the tiny little snippets of characterisation, just worked for me. Clara's role, I feel, has been established as "Carer" now, so she is supposed to actually give a poo poo about people. The Doctor is too busy being a dick. Admittedly, that's not as fancy as the other characters' gimmicks.
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Jul 25, 2015 07:09
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Toxxupation posted:Finally, though, and most damningly, my largest criticism lies in the Clara of it all. Why is Clara in this story? Seriously, why? She has no purpose or real desire to be here, considering Psi and Saibra are motivated by material reward and The Doctor out of a sense of obligation and Moffat-brand time-loop self-causation bullshit. Clara has no purpose to be in this story, since she provides no special skills or plot-critical support to The Doctor. I mean, she even has a reason not to be in this story - a date with Danny which The Doctor literally shanghais her away from for...what? What part of the plan to break into the Bank of Karabaxos required Clara? It's just weird. Funnily enough, Clara is the one character I think gets the most important long-term impact from this episode. This is the episode where she has it explicitly thrown in her face that the Doctor isn't the person she thinks he is (or wants him desperately to be). She keeps talking about how he truly cares, that he really isn't as cynical and mean as he fronts, and Psi warns her that she may be seeing traits in him that actually aren't there (anymore, Psi doesn't know he used to be a different person). Even though it gets mostly lost in the climax, that thought has to be burrowing into the back of her head after this story - that maybe the Doctor is not only not a good man, but may not even be trying anymore like she assured him he was in Into the Dalek. Especially considering the continued development of their relationship in The Caretaker, and whether there is any more beyond that will have to wait till you reach the episodes past that. It was really interesting to rewatch season 8 as a whole once it was done, week to week obviously we're not getting the "full" story of the season, but that raises the question of whether an episode can really be considered a "complete" one if it isn't capable of standing alone AND within the season as a whole. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Jul 25, 2015 |
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Jul 25, 2015 08:28
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And More posted:I really love Time Heist. It's clearly style over substance, but everything about it, down to the tiny little snippets of characterisation, just worked for me. Clara's role, I feel, has been established as "Carer" now, so she is supposed to actually give a poo poo about people. The Doctor is too busy being a dick. Admittedly, that's not as fancy as the other characters' gimmicks. You mean like every other female companion since the revival started?
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Jul 25, 2015 11:46
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Escobarbarian posted:You mean like every other female companion since the revival started? Every revival Doctor until Capaldi has been very sociable and nice. He is a piece of poo poo to everyone. Capaldi's Doctor needs someone to care about people because he sure as hell doesn't seem to.
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Jul 25, 2015 11:53
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Blasmeister posted:Danny did a flip You'd think GarrusBot would be better at shooting.
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Jul 25, 2015 12:14
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And More posted:Every revival Doctor until Capaldi has been very sociable and nice. He is a piece of poo poo to everyone. Capaldi's Doctor needs someone to care about people because he sure as hell doesn't seem to. Sure, but every female companion has been "the one who forms an emotional connection with an incidental one-off character in the episode and/or saves the day by Caring".
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Jul 25, 2015 12:32
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Escobarbarian posted:Sure, but every female companion has been "the one who forms an emotional connection with an incidental one-off character in the episode and/or saves the day by Caring". Fair enough. To some degree, that's always been the case. Now it's just the main focus. I was not talking about Clara's merit as a companion in general, though. I was talking about her role in the specific episode. The exchanges that happen between her and the other characters could never take place with Capaldi's Doctor because he doesn't care enough to actually talk with anyone. edit: Re-reading my initial comment, that was not entirely clear. And More fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jul 25, 2015 |
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Jul 25, 2015 12:51
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The Caretaker made me not like Danny. Firstly because he makes the assumption that Clara does whatever the Doctor says despite almost no evidence to suggest so, which we're meant to take seriously even though one of Clara's defining traits up until this point being "calls the Doctor on his poo poo". Secondly you don't just walk into a person's house/spaceship/time machine and start acting like a dick and insulting them  .
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Jul 25, 2015 13:03
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Stanfield posted:The Caretaker made me not like Danny. Yeah. The Doctor was out of line but Danny was a total dick too.
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Jul 25, 2015 13:05
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Toxxupation posted:A snappy, stone-hearted broad who mine as well be the Queen Bitch archetype personified? Say it ain't so. Toxxupation posted:Or The Princess Bride, which mine as loving well be a Robin Hood story. I believe the phrase is "might/may as well". I hope I don't sound pedantic, as I enjoy reading your reviews.
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Jul 25, 2015 13:47
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Stanfield posted:The Caretaker made me not like Danny. Caretaker was the point where I stopped caring as much about Danny as well, though I can't really pinpoint a reason why. It actually got to the point where I forgot about his interactions with Clara in the first half of the season, which I did enjoy. I guess all of his interactions with the Doctor are supposed to be funny, since he's constantly making fun of him for being an 'officer', but it just comes across as mean-spirited and uncomfortable. And if that was the point...mission accomplished, I guess? And I know the whole PE Teacher thing is supposed to be because Danny's a soldier but I still get a massive racist vibe from that joke, and it's pretty uncomfortable to watch. Especially since it gets run into the ground. The Matt Smith cosplayer made me laugh though.
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Jul 25, 2015 14:14
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And More posted:Fair enough. To some degree, that's always been the case. Now it's just the main focus. Right, I'm with you now and I agree. I definitely think Clara is the best "carer" companion so far because they actually make it part of her character and the contrast with Capaldi you mentioned instead of just "so she has something to do while the Doctor is off being smart somewhere else and/or because women are nurturing".
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Jul 25, 2015 14:47
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While the Doctor thinking soldiers are meatheads isn't racist (although there's a kind of irony in him thinking two black men played by the same actor don't look alike) by the time his confrontation with Danny in the tardis comes around, not liking soldiers for being meatheads kind of translates to him not liking the working class for being stupid, which is obviously a horrible attitude to have. That's not quite what the Doctor doesn't like about soldiers of course, as demonstrated by the other soldier in this episode being a literal robot. Danny doesn't like officers because they give horrible orders, the Doctor doesn't like soldiers because they follow horrible orders.Stanfield posted:The Caretaker made me not like Danny. Well, he does see the Doctor telling her to make a deadly robot pursue and try to kill her and her doing it without a second thought. He doesn't need to have seen the many times the Doctor says some variant of "do as you are told" to draw some solid conclusions from that.
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Jul 25, 2015 15:05
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| # ? May 12, 2024 00:40 |
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2house2fly posted:Well, he does see the Doctor telling her to make a deadly robot pursue and try to kill her and her doing it without a second thought. He doesn't need to have seen the many times the Doctor says some variant of "do as you are told" to draw some solid conclusions from that. There's still a jump from "Clara did a thing the Doctor told her to do" to "Clara has lost all ability to reason and will always do everything the Doctor says without hesitation". It felt like a conversation that would have made more sense if he had actually seen more than one example to lead him to that conclusion. Instead it comes off more like he just doesn't like the Doctor (which is fair) and is making up a reason why Clara should travel with him. it's also really disingenuous to Clara to make that assumption.
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Jul 25, 2015 16:38
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