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I had no problem with Omega Flowey. I only died accidentally twice: the very first time (which I think is deliberately more overwhelming, just to make sure you get the creepy Game Over), and once on my replay when I was loving around and something tiny but surprising happened that hasn't appeared in the LP and I didn't even know was possible. (I died a lot on the replay, but that was the only accidental one.) My friend, however, died repeatedly, and it was annoying that there was no mitigating factor at all that I could point her to. She just had to keep dying until, eventually, she didn't.
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Nov 14, 2015 20:41
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I died a lot on Omega Flowey, and I don't really know why. It feels like my brain just went OHMYGODWHATTHEFUCKISTHAT and basically deadlocked itself, leading to a lot of flailing around and dying. Honestly, there's no other explanation I can think of for why I died more on Omega Flowey than I did on Undyne the Undying and Sans combined.
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Nov 14, 2015 20:44
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Tengames posted:I'm kind of impressed in all the ways the difficulty scales in this game. You could absolutely be the shittiest player in the world and you'll still get through all the bosses just by virtue of toriel never killing you, papyrus only capturing you,and other stuff later on. its a nice contrast where the genocide run is peak "get gud". You say this but I had a friend hit a death spiral on Muffet after naturally hitting the 'fight papyrus y/n' option and only getting through Undyne by the skin of her teeth; she couldn't manage Muffet at all. I ended up having to adjust her save by hand so she could do it (notebook+tem armour, plus other goodies). Fortunately, I don't think she needed to hit the panic button for that fight that I dropped in her inventory. I have no idea what she's gonna do when she hits Asgore. I legit have no idea how anyone can be this bad, honestly.
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Nov 14, 2015 20:50
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distactedOne posted:I had no problem with Omega Flowey. I only died accidentally twice: the very first time (which I think is deliberately more overwhelming, just to make sure you get the creepy Game Over), and once on my replay when I was loving around and something tiny but surprising happened that hasn't appeared in the LP and I didn't even know was possible. (I died a lot on the replay, but that was the only accidental one.) pure DETERMINATION
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Nov 14, 2015 20:50
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I've watched streams and for some reason a lot of people react to omega flowey by going straight up and running into where the bullets are coming from. It's really weird.
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Nov 14, 2015 21:17
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I also had a real hard time on the first stage of Omega Flowey. The first time I could hardly even move, I was just boggling at it. Second time I think I started laughing when the giant cartoon bombs showed up. And being really tired cause I'd stayed up till 1 am wanting to beat the game didn't help either, so it took me a lot of reloads till I got to the first checkpoint. When I saw the fight command doing just 1 damage, I seriously wondered for a while if the fight was so ridiculous to make it totally unwinnable, and all you could do was that 1 damage at a time, so to kill Flowey would be a battle of pure determination reloading over and over again countless times. I was mad enough at Flowey at that point that I thought I'd be willing to do it, too. Though not all in one sitting. 
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Nov 14, 2015 21:27
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I somehow only died to Omega Flowey once (getting the creepy Game Over) before making it all the way through on my second try. I had never played any kind of bullet hell before, so I think it was mostly luck that got me through. At least, until I figured out that the easiest way to avoid the white
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Nov 14, 2015 22:11
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I didn't die the first time I did it, and actually assumed that it was impossible to die on the fight because I figured if it was possible to die, I would have, given the amount of poo poo he throws at you. I did die on it when I tried again later, though. On my genocide - 1 run, which is funny since you'd think all that LOVE would make the fight easier.
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Nov 14, 2015 22:21
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idonotlikepeas posted:This is an important point to consider in light of the Genocide route. Papyrus is incapable of killing you. He is literally incapable of killing you, under any circumstances. He is completely, 100% harmless in every way. One fun theory I read is that Papyrus is incredibly strong, but diverted all his effort to learning how to pull his punches and treat enemies nicely for his brother's sake. Sans only has 1 HP, after all. Attacks that don't ever hurt you and can cease mid-battle would be important for someone like him.
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Nov 14, 2015 22:22
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Oxxidation posted:One fun theory I read is that Papyrus is incredibly strong, but diverted all his effort to learning how to pull his punches and treat enemies nicely for his brother's sake. Sans only has 1 HP, after all. Attacks that don't ever hurt you and can cease mid-battle would be important for someone like him. You are assuming that sans would fight, or do something that takes effort like help Papyrus train.
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Nov 14, 2015 22:25
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YF-23 posted:You are assuming that sans would fight, or do something that takes effort like help Papyrus train. He reads him bedtime stories, so it's not so wild to imagine sans doing uncharacteristic things for his brother 
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Nov 14, 2015 22:36
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quote:NYEHFULLY YOURS, PAPYRUS Oh my god Papyrus You are killing me
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Nov 14, 2015 22:57
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DeafNote posted:Oh my god Didn't we just learn Papyrus can't kill you?
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Nov 14, 2015 22:58
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lets hang out posted:I've watched streams and for some reason a lot of people react to omega flowey by going straight up and running into where the bullets are coming from. It's really weird. I see a lot of people's reactions to Toriel's fire sweep with her hands is to immediately get rid of that obnoxious 87% of the screen they have to dodge it by trapping themselves at the top. I don't get why.
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Nov 14, 2015 23:35
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YF-23 posted:You are assuming that sans would fight, or do something that takes effort like help Papyrus train. Somebody did, and it's not Undyne. The misdirection of the blue attack is way too sucker-punch-y for Papyrus to have thought it up himself.
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Nov 15, 2015 00:08
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RareAcumen posted:I see a lot of people's reactions to Toriel's fire sweep with her hands is to immediately get rid of that obnoxious 87% of the screen they have to dodge it by trapping themselves at the top. I don't get why. I would assume because they don't expect so much tracking, so think dodging into the gap up top will give them more time to dodge because "They went towards the middle of the screen then rebounded back when I was in the middle"  You're supposed to dodge between bullets so they try to dodge between them as early as possible... which, doesn't work out so great on that attack.Now, when she only uses ONE hand? yeah that's dumb and silly
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Nov 15, 2015 00:13
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I only died once to Omega Flowey, and that was because I noticed the HP thing and got sloppy. After the initial "OH JESUS gently caress AAAAAAAH" reaction I just kinda switched to bullet hell mode. Turns out a brain-overloading boss gets a lot easier when you shut out everything outside of a certain area just to process it. 
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Nov 15, 2015 00:17
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RareAcumen posted:I see a lot of people's reactions to Toriel's fire sweep with her hands is to immediately get rid of that obnoxious 87% of the screen they have to dodge it by trapping themselves at the top. I don't get why. The ironic part is that I'm actually pretty decent at bullet hells and Omega Flowey wrecked me until I realized that I should be "trapping myself" at the bottom of the screen. "Stay the gently caress away from the edges" turns out to be a hard habit to break but that's where the safest spot was for that fight.
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Nov 15, 2015 00:54
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Heatwizard posted:Somebody did, and it's not Undyne. The misdirection of the blue attack is way too sucker-punch-y for Papyrus to have thought it up himself. Also, some of their attacks are really similar. There's a couple of Sans' patterns that are identical to Papyrus', just faster.
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Nov 15, 2015 01:17
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Qrr posted:I didn't die the first time I did it, and actually assumed that it was impossible to die on the fight because I figured if it was possible to die, I would have, given the amount of poo poo he throws at you. I was the same. I actually felt kind of disappointed when I got to Asriel and "But it refused", because I was thinking "really, game, two bosses in a row where you can't die?" Then I watched some LPs and realised that I must have been dodging better than I thought I was
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Nov 15, 2015 01:20
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Suaimhneas posted:I was the same. I actually felt kind of disappointed when I got to Asriel and "But it refused", because I was thinking "really, game, two bosses in a row where you can't die?" At least Omega Flowey kicks you out of the game for losing... Well, he does during the first part, at least. With Asriel you just pop right back into the fight a round or two behind where you left off. I haven't beaten a Touhou (or other shooter) game in ages and wished both of them were legitimate challenging fights instead of glorified cutscenes. At least there's always Undyne and Sans for a proper challenge.
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Nov 15, 2015 02:52
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It kind of works thematically, to have pacifist mode be easy and laid back compared to genocide dunking on you. It does not make for super fun gameplay but it does make for a richer overall narrative experience.
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Nov 15, 2015 03:01
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No argument there. Even Asriel admits the first part of the fight was mostly just for show. He was so excited over getting to play with Prof again that he put up a big anime fight for the both of them then summoned his Original Character Do Not Steal.
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Nov 15, 2015 03:23
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Section Z posted:I would assume because they don't expect so much tracking, so think dodging into the gap up top will give them more time to dodge because "They went towards the middle of the screen then rebounded back when I was in the middle" My most favoritest favorite part of watching people play this game is when they get to Toriel. 'Oh well, there was nothing I could do, I guess you have to kill her.' They say, after hitting her 6-14 times depending on if they're using the toy knife or stick. 
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Nov 15, 2015 04:32
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YF-23 posted:It kind of works thematically, to have pacifist mode be easy and laid back compared to genocide dunking on you. It does not make for super fun gameplay but it does make for a richer overall narrative experience. Yeah this is why it bugs me when people complain about the no mercy run being less satisfying narratively and otherwise, I was kind of arguing about it with someone else earlier in the thread. There are certain things in games where it's like, yes, you personally do not like it, but this was a deliberate design decision made to make the game play or feel a certain way, which it does, successfully, and therefore you can't actually say it makes the game worse, because that means the game would be objectively better without it (unless it's so utterly rank that there was clear malice in it to begin with, but I don't have any examples of that at the moment); up until now my go-to example was Baby Mario's crying in Yoshi's Island but Undertale's no mercy run might supplant it. In both cases there was a deliberate decision made to do things this way because otherwise the game everyone loves doesn't happen. For Baby Mario, when Mario was quiet, playtesters would just ignore him and go off doing their own thing, and the timer would run out, and they'd lose the life; so they put in a sound which the human brain is hard-wired by evolution to hate to motivate them to get him back so he'd shut the gently caress up, because it turns out "if you don't then you lose the game" isn't much of a motivation for gamers I guess. So you can gripe that it was annoying but the only response I really have is "yeah that was the point, good job, you got almost as far as the guy trying to make a fun game for people to play." Likewise you can complain that no mercy wasn't as enjoyable to play as pacifist in Undertale until you're blue attack in the face but all that means is that you noticed Toby, with his deliberate and calculated decision to stay 100% on-message no matter how the player played the game, didn't super want you to have the same experience satisfaction-wise from a no mercy run as from a pacifist run.
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Nov 15, 2015 05:09
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Dr. Buttass posted:Yeah this is why it bugs me when people complain about the no mercy run being less satisfying narratively and otherwise, I was kind of arguing about it with someone else earlier in the thread. There are certain things in games where it's like, yes, you personally do not like it, but this was a deliberate design decision made to make the game play or feel a certain way, which it does, successfully, and therefore you can't actually say it makes the game worse, because that means the game would be objectively better without it (unless it's so utterly rank that there was clear malice in it to begin with, but I don't have any examples of that at the moment); up until now my go-to example was Baby Mario's crying in Yoshi's Island but Undertale's no mercy run might supplant it. In both cases there was a deliberate decision made to do things this way because otherwise the game everyone loves doesn't happen. For Baby Mario, when Mario was quiet, playtesters would just ignore him and go off doing their own thing, and the timer would run out, and they'd lose the life; so they put in a sound which the human brain is hard-wired by evolution to hate to motivate them to get him back so he'd shut the gently caress up, because it turns out "if you don't then you lose the game" isn't much of a motivation for gamers I guess. So you can gripe that it was annoying but the only response I really have is "yeah that was the point, good job, you got almost as far as the guy trying to make a fun game for people to play." That's quite the storytelling accomplishment; even if you do enjoy that sort of challenge it still leaves a sour aftertaste if you are at all engaged with the characters. But it's still enough of a game to let you savor it, your sins be damned.
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Nov 15, 2015 05:30
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Yeah, the fights were meant to be enjoyed from a gameplay standpoint. If Toby really didn't want people playing the evil path, it would have been easy for him to make fights that were completely unfair and dealt nothing but cheap shots or something like that.
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Nov 15, 2015 05:34
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The Genocide run is unsatisfying because after the most grueling boss fight in the entire game you are rewarded with the remaining characters being killed unceremoniously and then the game crashing. It's a wet fart of an ending that makes the entire struggle feel pointless, but thats the point
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Nov 15, 2015 05:37
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Augus posted:The Genocide run is unsatisfying because after the most grueling boss fight in the entire game you are rewarded with the remaining characters being killed unceremoniously and then the game crashing. It's a wet fart of an ending that makes the entire struggle feel pointless, but thats the point If you were doing a genocide run because you wanted a fancy fireworks display, you had some kind of deeply confused idea of what was going on. Sans is totally upfront about it. If you're beating Sans, the reward is in beating him. You're systematically exhausting the play space and clearing all challenges, and you've already proven that you're willing to pay a price of tedious bullshit to get it. Sans posted:i know your type. No benefit to persevering whatsoever. Not out of any desire for good or evil... But because you "can", you "have to". The "penalties" of the genocide run in that mindset are rewards. If you aren't in a mindset that would believe that, you listened to Flowey when he begged you not to reset the game after True Pacifist. edit: vvvvvvv  properly animated. I approve.
ManxomeBromide fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 05:46
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This cute animation just got posted in the main thread.
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Nov 15, 2015 05:48
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Nooooo. That animation may be nice, but I can't handle the end. This is great, though.
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Nov 15, 2015 06:08
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kw0134 posted:That's quite the storytelling accomplishment; even if you do enjoy that sort of challenge it still leaves a sour aftertaste if you are at all engaged with the characters. But it's still enough of a game to let you savor it, your sins be damned. This is a way better phrasing of what I was trying to express. Toby's said himself that no mercy isn't supposed to be completely unsatisfying, but at the same time the fact that it is a completely different beast, emotionally, tonally, experientially overall, is clearly completely deliberate and a fundamental part of the experience if you're the sort of person who has it in them to go through with a no mercy run in the first place. If you don't like that experience, maybe it's time to ask yourself why you wanted it in the first place.
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Nov 15, 2015 06:38
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The intesting thing about Undertale to me is that all of the Boss Monsters in the game go out of their way to avoid killing you despite being hyped up as so powerful. Toriel actively avoids injuring you at low HP, Asgore can only kill you if he hits you at 1 HP, Omega Flowey apparently scales damage based on your health, and Asriel is basically a cutscene boss.
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Nov 15, 2015 06:52
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Flowey does kill you really hard over and over
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Nov 15, 2015 06:56
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Pretty sure Undyne only stops trying to kill you if she faints from exhaustion.
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Nov 15, 2015 07:11
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Iretep posted:Pretty sure Undyne only stops trying to kill you if she faints from exhaustion. She's not a Boss Monster 
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Nov 15, 2015 07:28
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Two things I remembered to note! One is that wolf guy throwing ice from all the way across the game to cool down the Core runs away in the genocide run...and the minute I saw that I was sure there was going to be some sort of core meltdown happening. Sadly there was no such thing! It'd have been cool if the core was all red and heat shimmery. And as well, I think I remember someone asking where exactly all the fled citizenry went. I think Undyne was all 'they're somewhere you'll never ever get to'. ...and conveniently, such a place is right next to Alphys's lab. You can't go into the middle chunk of hotland because there are those force fields blocking the way, so that does answer that question!
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Nov 15, 2015 07:36
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Gyra_Solune posted:Two things I remembered to note! You also never gain access to the true lab whilst having a Bad Time, which would make a decent place to store refugees; Alphys keeps some food down there and everything.
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Nov 15, 2015 09:43
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Dr. Buttass posted:This is a way better phrasing of what I was trying to express. Toby's said himself that no mercy isn't supposed to be completely unsatisfying, but at the same time the fact that it is a completely different beast, emotionally, tonally, experientially overall, is clearly completely deliberate and a fundamental part of the experience if you're the sort of person who has it in them to go through with a no mercy run in the first place. If you don't like that experience, maybe it's time to ask yourself why you wanted it in the first place. There is satisfaction to be gained in all the puzzle bullshit being pre-solved, completely disregarding Papyrus trying to play with you, sending all of Monsterland in a panicked run away from you, Monster Kid turning from a friend into a tragic nuisance (without anything being changed about him too!), and of course, in the Undyne and Sans fights themselves. There is no "deliberate unsatisfaction" in it, it's all entirely satisfactory. But you have to see it as part of the whole instead of standalone. And you have to do the same about Pacifist too! You cannot really experience a genocide without being aware of how pacifist plays out, and pacifist itself is enhanced by knowledge of what genocide is like. The two work together and fill each other's inadequacies.
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Nov 15, 2015 11:26
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Heatwizard posted:You also never gain access to the true lab whilst having a Bad Time, which would make a decent place to store refugees; Alphys keeps some food down there and everything.
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Nov 15, 2015 11:29
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