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Oh, and I agree that Emperor's Soul is really great, but Perfect State is amazing. Try that too.
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Nov 15, 2015 20:53
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Ex-Priest Tobin posted:Too juvenile (notwithstanding that this is fantasy lit we're discussing) and too cliched I think about sums it up. It's a spot-on point about the 'Sanderson avalanche' as well. Throughout the novel I was mostly thinking 'yeah, this is kind of cliched and by the numbers but the guy does know how to spin a tight plot at the least', but that more or less unravelled in the last few chapters: the pacing was way off. I felt the same way about the Mistborn books when I read them, the first one is pretty cliched and the pacing in the second one sucks. I have since become a big fan of his though, so if you weren't completely sold I'd try something newer of his. He still isn't a particularly "technically adept" author, but he is great at worldbuilding, his magic systems are always fun, and his prose gets better (or at least it stops being awkward).
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Nov 15, 2015 21:00
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Thyrork posted:Different folks, different strokes and all that but i still wonder why too. As cheesy and "young adult novel"* as it is, I find the first Mistborn to have a pleasant cast of characters and extremely good at invoking a scene. Would love to see it hit the cinema or a high quality tv show. Young adult novels are simpler and ignore the complexities of adult actions and interactions in order to tell a specific story. There's all sorts of simple shortcut storytelling in Mistborn. We're told through Vin and Kelsier how evil the nobles are compared to the peasant class, but then Vin is disguised as a noble and goes to noble parties and the first noble she meets is a pure good guy who wants to help the peasants, and actually most of the other nobles are good guys too. You don't have to channel GRRM to see that these villains aren't really that villainous. We're told how dark and cruel this world is but we don't really see much of it, which makes this very dirty world seem sanitized. Any book in which characters either go out of their way not to swear, or when they do swear it sounds like Made Up Bad Word, is going to look like it's meant for younger audiences. Adults can handle adult language; Sanderson censoring this language makes it clear his novels are aimed at younger audiences. Finally and one of my biggest complaints about Mistborn and Sanderson in general is that there are no clear antagonists, and the few named antagonists either have very little screen time or it turns out they weren't villains at all. The Lord Ruler shows up very briefly in person in Mistborn 1 and after that the antagonist is a vague cosmic entity that is the literal embodiment of Ruin. In Warbreaker I don't think there was an actual named villain, just a group of people who wanted to gently caress things up for the emperor and his court. Stormlight 1 didn't have a named antagonist and the closest there was to a named villain with any real presence was Sadeas. I can't even remember the name of the villain in Stormlight 2 even though she got four or five chapters of how she was being corrupted. I like Sanderson for the most part and I enjoy his books as something to read, but in terms of characterization and conflict they are all pretty simple. I enjoyed the first Mistborn book for what it was, but frankly found the other two books to be a big waste of time, and I definitely would sooner recommend people start with Stormlight than Mistborn if they haven't read anything by Sanderson.
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Nov 15, 2015 22:07
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The Ninth Layer posted:Young adult novels are simpler and ignore the complexities of adult actions and interactions in order to tell a specific story. There's all sorts of simple shortcut storytelling in Mistborn. Thank you for explaining that! Nobles. My take away from that is that Kelsier's full of hateful poo poo, and so is other members of the Crew. Vin gets to see the nobles through her own eyes, and she sees them in a light that might be too fair at times. Overall, they arn't very noble. The group that is intended to be outright "evil" in my take? The Inquisitors. Swearing. I think its a cute bit of world building that people curse in their own way. One says "Butt", the other "Arse". One "Goddamnit", the other "Cursed Luck." Of course its entirely unnecessary since you can just assume its a story told using language you are comfortable with. Mostly because that avoids the whole "calling a Rabbit a Sneep." thing, but i find it endearing. Antagonists. I find the lack of a clear cut evil actually adds depth to Sanderson's worlds. An evil that is simply evil for the sake of evil is very shallow. Ruin flies very close to this, his justifications and all, but he mostly avoids it because his is a force of nature and less a deliberate act. Sanderson's villains are simply motivated in ways we disagree with, or better, the protagonists disagree with. A certain uncle for example...
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Nov 15, 2015 22:26
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The Ninth Layer posted:Adults can handle adult language; Sanderson censoring this language makes it clear his novels are aimed at younger audiences. I think that's more a religious thing than anything else. He's not censoring the language because he's targeting a younger audience, he's censoring the language because it's uncomfortable for him to write strong profanity and it would upset his church friends. I'd prefer if he just didn't bother with fake profanity because it sounds goofy, but I don't think it's a YA vs A thing.
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Nov 15, 2015 22:56
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mewse posted:I really liked mistborn, even the first novel, but this is the second time I've heard someone having significant trouble enjoying it. It might just be that I can abide cliches without gagging? I really wonder why it's polarizing Mistborn is your stereotypical Sanderson book and it showcases every one of his problems in painstaking detail. Wooden characters, clunky dialogue, a magic system described with all the wonder and mystery of a D&D handbook, and plotting that goes "Oh crap, I've only got two chapters left, time to wrap up everything all at once." Every one of Sanderson's problem areas shows up in this book and it's so early in his writing career that the rough edges are really rough. It also suffers from the thing where the first book in a series by an essentially unknown author has to handle matters in a way that would let it fly as a standalone if it failed to gain traction. This means that he has to set the Lord Ruler up and then knock him back down in the same book, and it just ends up feeling very rushed. It's made even worse by the fact that he has to kill Kelsier off before anybody else becomes interesting, and that leaves a HUGE empty space that nobody really fills. I think that if Mistborn were written at a later stage of his career Kelsier and the Lord Ruler might have made it into book 2 and the whole thing would feel a lot smoother.
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Nov 15, 2015 22:57
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The Ninth Layer posted:Finally and one of my biggest complaints about Mistborn and Sanderson in general is that there are no clear antagonists, and the few named antagonists either have very little screen time or it turns out they weren't villains at all. The Lord Ruler shows up very briefly in person in Mistborn 1 and after that the antagonist is a vague cosmic entity that is the literal embodiment of Ruin. In Warbreaker I don't think there was an actual named villain, just a group of people who wanted to gently caress things up for the emperor and his court. Stormlight 1 didn't have a named antagonist and the closest there was to a named villain with any real presence was Sadeas. I can't even remember the name of the villain in Stormlight 2 even though she got four or five chapters of how she was being corrupted. The main villain for Stormlight is alluded even before their name is explicitly given in the first book and people like Sadeas are never painted as some kind of Big Bad. There's no shortage of greedy power hungry assholes who think what they're doing is right, but I'd be pretty shocked if the main enemy in Stormlight were to change considering Dalinar is explicitly shown past (and future) visions of what Odium will do and that includes destroying Roshar in addition to other worlds. The person you're thinking of from book 2 was never painted as a villain though. If anything she's a victim taken advantage of by her sister and others because she's desperate to save her people but instead fucks everything up by agreeing to the Stormform test.
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Nov 15, 2015 23:00
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Ex-Priest Tobin posted:Too juvenile (notwithstanding that this is fantasy lit we're discussing) and too cliched I think about sums it up. It's a spot-on point about the 'Sanderson avalanche' as well. Throughout the novel I was mostly thinking 'yeah, this is kind of cliched and by the numbers but the guy does know how to spin a tight plot at the least', but that more or less unravelled in the last few chapters: the pacing was way off. Thoughts on too juvenile: Every main character is an acknowledged child of rape. And they're not shy about it. Description of steel inquisitors / scenes of them being created. main protagonist dying at the three quarter point I'm missing a definition of juvenile I think. When I hear that I think three stooges. But maybe I'm too far disconnected from the time.
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Nov 15, 2015 23:04
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Hughlander posted:Thoughts on too juvenile: With respect to this novel I would say the characteristics that make it feel juvenile are: - Over-reliance on the most generic of fantasy archetype characters - Simplified relationships between characters: the relationship between Vin and Elend for instance is cliched, predictable and has no depth whatsoever - A magic system that feels like it was pulled out of a video-game (although the magic system is the coolest thing in the novel) - Clunky prose: a lot of the action sequences feel like they are being narrated by an over-excited teenager A lot of comic books have violence and graphic scenes along the lines you mentioned but are still primarily consumed by adolescents. And that is really what Final Empire reminds me of - sort of a comic book in novel form.
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Nov 15, 2015 23:32
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I would think not having clear antagonists is a sign of a more mature work.
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Nov 15, 2015 23:34
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Ithaqua posted:I think that's more a religious thing than anything else. He's not censoring the language because he's targeting a younger audience, he's censoring the language because it's uncomfortable for him to write strong profanity and it would upset his church friends. I think it's less the fake profanity and more that he's just not very good at cursing in general. RJ had Mat swearing with things like "Blood and bloody ashes" and "Sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions" and that worked for me, but Sanderson's "Storming thing!" comes off as Ned Flanders going 'Goshdarnit all to heck!".
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Nov 16, 2015 01:54
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The Ninth Layer posted:Young adult novels are simpler and ignore the complexities of adult actions and interactions in order to tell a specific story. There's all sorts of simple shortcut storytelling in Mistborn. There are several scenes where vin notices that it's just a facade - for instance, a beggar comes up to the carriages waiting outside a party, and the guards just kill him on sight. And she basically has to remind herself 'wait these guys really are awful, I shouldn't get pulled in by the superficial veneer covering up the terrible things they do to stay in power' Tunicate fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Nov 16, 2015 |
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Nov 16, 2015 04:14
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The Sanderson Avalanche is a feature, not a bug. I like it because it's a serious shift into overdrive for Act 3 (particularly in a book like Mistborn 1).
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Nov 16, 2015 07:24
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Khizan posted:Mistborn is your stereotypical Sanderson book and it showcases every one of his problems in painstaking detail. Wooden characters, clunky dialogue, a magic system described with all the wonder and mystery of a D&D handbook, and plotting that goes "Oh crap, I've only got two chapters left, time to wrap up everything all at once." Every one of Sanderson's problem areas shows up in this book and it's so early in his writing career that the rough edges are really rough. Well stated, thank you
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Nov 16, 2015 07:34
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Alloy of law really improves on The Final Empire. I'll also agree that Well of Ascension really wasn't that good.
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Nov 16, 2015 07:45
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computer parts posted:I would think not having clear antagonists is a sign of a more mature work. Not when they're replaced by characters suffering from internal angst over the same unresolved problem for chapter after chapter. Evil Fluffy posted:The main villain for Stormlight is alluded even before their name is explicitly given in the first book and people like Sadeas are never painted as some kind of Big Bad. There's no shortage of greedy power hungry assholes who think what they're doing is right, but I'd be pretty shocked if the main enemy in Stormlight were to change considering Dalinar is explicitly shown past (and future) visions of what Odium will do and that includes destroying Roshar in addition to other worlds. The person you're thinking of from book 2 was never painted as a villain though. If anything she's a victim taken advantage of by her sister and others because she's desperate to save her people but instead fucks everything up by agreeing to the Stormform test. If he's the main villain maybe he could make an appearance in the book. The Dark Lord was kind enough to show up a few times in the first two Wheel of Time books.
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Nov 16, 2015 08:01
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The Ninth Layer posted:Not when they're replaced by characters suffering from internal angst over the same unresolved problem for chapter after chapter. I thought that turned out to be just Moridin pretending to be the Dark One?
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Nov 16, 2015 08:12
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Lobsterpillar posted:I thought that turned out to be just Moridin pretending to be the Dark One? We're kind of edging towards the territory of "you're not a character if you're not physically occupying the same space as the other characters" territory here. It's actually good/interesting that characters have reach and presence past even their own graves.
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Nov 16, 2015 08:51
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The Ninth Layer posted:If he's the main villain maybe he could make an appearance in the book. The Dark Lord was kind enough to show up a few times in the first two Wheel of Time books. If I recall correctly, Sauron made no appearance in the Fellowship of the Ring itself, and I can't remember if we saw him using the Palantir to speak with Saruman in the Two Towers or not. Was Tolkien a bad author then?
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Nov 16, 2015 13:50
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Thyrork posted:Oh, and I agree that Emperor's Soul is really great, but Perfect State is amazing. Try that too. What? Perfect State was pretty bad. broken clock opsec posted:The Sanderson Avalanche is a feature, not a bug. I like it because it's a serious shift into overdrive for Act 3 (particularly in a book like Mistborn 1). The problem is, too often, Sanderson can't write a good 2nd act. Instead of building to a climax in a steady manner, Sanderson's books generally kind of flounder about for 2/3s of the book before spiking.
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Nov 16, 2015 14:10
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EVGA Longoria posted:What? Wow, it's almost like people have different opinions. Even if they're wrong, like that one.
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Nov 16, 2015 15:06
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broken clock opsec posted:The Sanderson Avalanche is a feature, not a bug. In his Writing Excuses podcast, he actually talks about it being a problem: quote:[Mary] But the caution with that is that if you wrapped too many of them up with... At the same moment, it can feel neat and tidy and very, very artificial.
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Nov 16, 2015 15:08
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He's more talking there about what he pulled in Elantris (or white sand if you've read it) where a bunch of secret character things get revealed that are super pointless just for the sake of every character having a TWEEEST
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Nov 16, 2015 16:14
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EVGA Longoria posted:What? It's kind of a structural representation of the characters themselves floundering around. At that point in the story in Mistborn 1 the characters were spinning their wheels in a rut because they literally didn't have an answer to the key question posed by their plot.
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Nov 16, 2015 17:26
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A few days ago Brandon posted the "official fan trailer" for Alloy of Law, it's pretty funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbG-EJdxZW4
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Nov 29, 2015 21:59
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Torrannor posted:A few days ago Brandon posted the "official fan trailer" for Alloy of Law, it's pretty funny: That was bad, did I miss something and something is actually in the works for a movie?
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Dec 1, 2015 09:23
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He was shopping around for someone to make a Mistborn movie a while back, I know. I don't think anything came of it though.
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Dec 1, 2015 09:32
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Torrannor posted:If I recall correctly, Sauron made no appearance in the Fellowship of the Ring itself, and I can't remember if we saw him using the Palantir to speak with Saruman in the Two Towers or not. Was Tolkien a bad author then? When a Master breaks a rule, you look at why they did it. When a novice breaks a rule, you tell them that they hosed up. Tolkien was a Master and Sanderson is a relative novice.
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Dec 2, 2015 18:47
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Iunnrais posted:He was shopping around for someone to make a Mistborn movie a while back, I know. I don't think anything came of it though. Steelheart is being made in to a movie.
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Dec 2, 2015 23:20
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NovemberMike posted:When a Master breaks a rule, you look at why they did it. When a novice breaks a rule, you tell them that they hosed up. Tolkien was a Master and Sanderson is a relative novice. Tolkien also has the main antagonist of the Hobbit killed off screen from the perspective of the protagonists, and he most definitely wasn't a "Master" then.
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Dec 3, 2015 01:35
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I'm rereading elantris and holy poo poo is the dialogue and expository narration terrible. I picture every character turning towards a camera with a sly grin after each line.
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Dec 3, 2015 05:42
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computer parts posted:Tolkien also has the main antagonist of the Hobbit killed off screen from the perspective of the protagonists, and he most definitely wasn't a "Master" then. He's also killed off by a character more interesting than the entirety of Thorin's group. I'd be 100% ok with a story about Beorn.
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Dec 3, 2015 06:08
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pile of brown posted:I'm rereading elantris and holy poo poo is the dialogue and expository narration terrible. I picture every character turning towards a camera with a sly grin after each line. Yeah, I accept that Sanderson is a super smart guy, but he writes pulp. I wish everything he did was more like The Emperor's Soul
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Dec 5, 2015 08:02
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Benson Cunningham posted:Yeah, I accept that Sanderson is a super smart guy, but he writes pulp. I wish everything he did was more like The Emperor's Soul At least he's getting better over time, and Elantris was his first real work. Plus, pulp is great  .
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Dec 5, 2015 12:53
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Benson Cunningham posted:Yeah, I accept that Sanderson is a super smart guy, but he writes pulp. I wish everything he did was more like The Emperor's Soul Reading some of the annotations on his website, I actually got the impression that Sanderson is not a very deep thinker, and it's kind of surprising that his books are as good as the are. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 21:20
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Silver2195 posted:Reading some of the annotations on his website, I actually got the impression that Sanderson is not a very deep thinker, and it's kind of surprising that his books are as good as the are. I listen to his podcast regularly- he is definitely an expert in the subject matter (fiction writing). He is also a university professor, which in and of itself might not mean too much but is another indication he knows his poo poo. I just think he is more interested in world building than he is character development.
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Dec 5, 2015 23:31
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Benson Cunningham posted:I listen to his podcast regularly- he is definitely an expert in the subject matter (fiction writing). He is also a university professor, which in and of itself might not mean too much but is another indication he knows his poo poo. I just think he is more interested in magic systems Feels like it's closer to the truth. 
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Dec 5, 2015 23:50
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Silver2195 posted:Reading some of the annotations on his website, I actually got the impression that Sanderson is not a very deep thinker, and it's kind of surprising that his books are as good as the are. I don't think it's surprising at all, because the books aren't that good. The characterization is flat. The dialogue is forced. The prose is workmanlike at its best, and that's being generous. His 'avalanche' leads to a boring middle section, because none of the threads resolve until the very end. It also leads to a rushed feeling on the ending, because there isn't enough time to witness the aftermath of any of the resolved threads. The only thing he happens to be good at is the technical details of the worldbuilding and magic systems. It just so happens that there's a large audience for that. It's sort of like LE Modesitt in a way; I don't know what it is but if he wrote a book that was "500 pages of some dude building furniture" I'd probably read it.
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Dec 6, 2015 00:49
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Khizan posted:I don't think it's surprising at all, because the books aren't that good. The characterization is flat. The dialogue is forced. The prose is workmanlike at its best, and that's being generous. His 'avalanche' leads to a boring middle section, because none of the threads resolve until the very end. It also leads to a rushed feeling on the ending, because there isn't enough time to witness the aftermath of any of the resolved threads. The Magic of Recluse and The Death of Chaos, are the books pertaining to that.
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Dec 6, 2015 02:30
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I can't remember the author off the top of my head but the engineer trilogy, first book devices and desires, had lots of furniture building as well
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Dec 6, 2015 07:12
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