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What kind of person are you trying to reach with these posts?
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Dec 5, 2015 09:02
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It's more of a recruitment technique
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Dec 5, 2015 09:05
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if all this mass shooting is getting to your psyche, just keep in mind that about 3.5 times as many gun owners shoot themselves as shoot other people, so there is still hope in the world
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Dec 5, 2015 09:16
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LGD posted:but I'm still struggling to see how invoking them here, on the very barest of evidence, isn't blaming the victims for what happened, and offering what is essentially a more sophisticated version of the "hooker heels, low morals, and bad lifestyle" defense because it lets people in this thread deal with the tragedy by claiming a moral high ground on behalf of an oppressed minority I don't know, but I feel like asserting that anyone attempting to understand why a shooter did what he did is "victim blaming" (and therefore that their speculations and assertions are irrelevant and should be ignored, which D&D tends to do in those cases) is counterproductive if your goal is to reduce the incidence of these sorts of events, especially in a world where the proximate cause for their high incidence (easy availability of firearms) has a solution that is politically intractable for the foreseeable future leaving the removal of these motivations to be the only way to stop them. Knowing why Eliot Rodger did what he did doesn't mean you have to placate him and let him get pity hosed to stop it, but it does let you determine what morally correct actions WILL work. Focusing on Islamophobia does likewise. Of course as I wrote this, I realize that this particular viewpoint removes agency from the shooter and is thus victim blaming too so I guess you're right: we should never consider why shooters kill as the failing is solely their own! Guess all we can do is wage war against radical Islam! ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 09:17
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Hollismason posted:It's more of a recruitment technique its true, I'm trying to lead people down the dark path to Conservatism by getting them to introspective examine their ideological biases and worry about political tribalism and paternalistic bigotry if you get someone doubting the importance or relevance of speculative "islamophobia" on the part of the victims you've basically got yourself a new Trump voter edit: ComradeCosmobot posted:I don't know, but I feel like asserting that anyone attempting to understand why a shooter did what he did is "victim blaming" (and therefore that their speculations and assertions are irrelevant and should be ignored, which D&D tends to do in those cases) is counterproductive if your goal is to reduce the incidence of these sorts of events, especially in a world where the proximate cause for their high incidence (easy availability of firearms) has a solution that is politically intractable for the foreseeable future leaving the removal of these motivations to be the only way to stop them. Maybe the girl wouldn't have been raped if she hadn't dressed so provocatively and said such offensive things, but we're extremely unsympathetic to that argument for good reasons and you're essentially making that same argument without even knowing the (metaphorical) clothes she was wearing, or what was said because you're pretty sure that most broads are mouthy teases (islamophobic bigots). LGD fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 09:21
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maybe if you continue flailing around while crying 'but islamophobia is bad' you'll be able to drown out his point
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Dec 5, 2015 09:26
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Maybe someone would listen if he understood that beyond the paleness has nothing to do with it.  e: or if he didn't use misinformed rape similes washwithlikecolors fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 09:59
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ComradeCosmobot posted:: we should never consider why shooters kill as the failing is solely their own! On the other hand... one cool thing after the Paris attacks was the 'we stand with the Muslims' twitter thing. Something like this could be used right now in the US.
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Dec 5, 2015 10:28
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washwithlikecolors posted:Maybe someone would listen if he understood that beyond the paleness has nothing to do with it. Maybe I'd listen if someone gave an actual counter argument (to that point anyhow, I sometimes feel like I'm slighting ComradeCosmonots genuine engagement with my argument by omission- sorry if I've ever given that impression). People keep implying the comparisons I'm making are unworthy of consideration without actually stating reasons why. They're admittedly deliberately provacative comparisons because I want people to think about the arguments they're making, but there actually is an intended point to them- i.e. the rape example seems useful both because it's the most well known and clear cut example of victim blaming, and the I think there is an actual parallel to be made with the "they were only reacting naturally to the circumstances" LGD fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 12:11
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If I said "parents shake their babies to death sometimes because they won't stop crying and it makes the parents snap", does that mean I'm victim blaming the baby for crying?
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Dec 5, 2015 12:41
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Horking Delight posted:If I said "parents shake their babies to death sometimes because they won't stop crying and it makes the parents snap", does that mean I'm victim blaming the baby for crying? Asking babies not to cry is not a realistic proposal. Asking racists to stop being racist is.
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Dec 5, 2015 15:02
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Michigan Republican senator goes full Charles Murray on why some children fail in school. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBf-9PJds7M
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Dec 5, 2015 15:10
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In the video it looks like he's reading from a report that claims that one of the reasons some schools were failing is that they are predominately non-white.
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Dec 5, 2015 15:25
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Regarding mass shootings in the US: has there been much work done looking at the relationship between a culture which exalts individualism (to a fault) and the prevalence of narcissistic injury/rage? I'm asking for a friend.
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Dec 5, 2015 15:34
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ColdPie posted:Asking babies not to cry is not a realistic proposal. Asking racists to stop being racist is. Great, let's have a mass shooting whenever some people have a Middle East argument
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Dec 5, 2015 15:47
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LGD posted:Maybe I'd listen if someone gave an actual counter argument (to that point anyhow, I sometimes feel like I'm slighting ComradeCosmonots genuine engagement with my argument by omission- sorry if I've ever given that impression). People keep implying the comparisons I'm making are unworthy of consideration without actually stating reasons why. First, I stop reading your posts whenever you accuse someone of "justifying mass murder." Stop saying incredibly stupid things and perhaps you'll get responses to whatever real point you're trying to make. Second, when an unexplainable act occurs, it makes sense to break down why it happened to try to understand it, which can help in making changes to prevent it from happening again. First you find the explanations for why the action occurred, then you figure out what you can change, within our legal and social framework, to prevent it happening again. So let's break this down. What would convince a family with a young child that going on a killing spree is the best way to spend the rest of their now-short lives? 1) Presumably they had sincere belief in their chosen sky wizard. Outside influences like daesh may have convinced them that defending this sky wizard's honor is worth their lives. 2) They had easy access to weapons allowing them to commit mass murder trivially. 3) It's well-known that Muslims are a persecuted minority by much of the US. 4) We have evidence that his workplace was hostile to his chosen sky wizard, and apparently he left the party the previous day in a bad mood. Maybe yet another argument about his sky wizard had occurred, and this with the other factors was enough to make him snap in that particular manner on that particular day. So suppose all this is true. Maybe it isn't! I'm speculating given the evidence that I have. Feel free to disagree. Maybe there are other factors! Feel free to propose some and your suggested solutions. But suppose it is true. What can we do to prevent it from happening again? Maybe if we had one fewer factor, the guy would not have snapped. What can we do to remove one or more of these factors from people who find themselves in a similar situation in the future? 1) Addressing religious radicalism is hard. For better or worse, the US treats religion as untouchable. Probably people reading this very post were offended that I said "sky wizard." Reducing the impact of 2000 year old fairy tales on peoples' lives is going to be a long, long process and may never happen. Maybe work could be done here, but I don't think there's any meaningful short-term action we can take to stop this, especially religious extremism abroad. 2) Preventing easy access to weapons designed for mass murder may have prevented this from occurring, but gun control in the US is a dead end, so nevermind. 3) Ah, here we hit on something we can work with. We have strong evidence that we can reduce race- and religion-based persecution in relatively short terms. 1950s-style racism is no longer acceptable in 2000. We have lots of black business leaders, politicians, and a black president. The supreme court declared racism has ended (this one was a joke). Gay marriage is legal nation-wide. Perhaps if the killers felt that Muslims were welcome members of the US, they wouldn't have chosen to go on a murder spree. 4) The killers targeted his workplace, which suggests body count was not their main goal. The evidence is that something at his work caused them to snap. We also have evidence that at least one coworker had strong anti-Muslim opinions and was not shy of expressing them. Maybe if HR had taken a pro-active response to the harassment, or if his other coworkers had defended his right to exist, he would not have chosen to execute the people he'd worked with for several years. Maybe if we had stronger employee protections, or a stronger social safety net, he would have felt OK with leaving the toxic environment to work someplace else (but see also factor 3, above). None of this is victim blaming. I'm trying to find an explanation for why they chose to go on a killing spree, and how we can prevent it happening again. Perhaps you believe there are additional factors. What are they? What can we do to reduce those factors in the future? "Well, he should've just dealt with those issues in a more rational way" isn't an answer, because he didn't. What would you have changed in the lives of these people to make them not come to the decision they did?
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Dec 5, 2015 15:50
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Great, let's have a mass shooting whenever some people have a Middle East argument This is a stupid idea. Why would you suggest it?
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Dec 5, 2015 15:50
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pathetic little tramp posted:As soon as I saw the picture of the super-Jewish dude as one of the victims, I just knew that must have been the powder. Just to be clear, messianic jews aren't super-jewish dudes. They're a christian variant, that has decided that they're not christians, they're jews with the extra love of Jesus Christ. Dates back to the 60s, a lot of russian jews came over without any knowledge of their religion, and certain evangelicals pitched Christianity to them as 'judiasm except more and better!' Some people believe it, but the leadership of it - jews for jesus and all that, tend to be evangelicals that 'converted' rather than of jewish faith.
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Dec 5, 2015 15:54
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ColdPie posted:This is a stupid idea. Why would you suggest it? You guys keep trying to say that you're just trying to find an explanation for the killing- which is fine, but a lot of the posts here do not come off that way at all, and are kind of giving me mental whiplash to the PP shooting last week when Twitter was clogged with right wing people saying some variation of "yes, this was a tragedy, but planned parenthood is resposible for much more death than these few people".
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Dec 5, 2015 15:56
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:You guys keep trying to say that you're just trying to find an explanation for the killing- which is fine, but a lot of the posts here do not come off that way at all, and are kind of giving me mental whiplash to the PP shooting last week when Twitter was clogged with right wing people saying some variation of "yes, this was a tragedy, but planned parenthood is resposible for much more death than these few people". Why do you think saying stupid things is an effective way to make your argument?
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Dec 5, 2015 15:57
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ColdPie posted:Why do you think saying stupid things is an effective way to make your argument? Because people in this thread (and other people, for that matter) for some reason keep insinuating that it's okay to shoot a bunch of people over a political disagreement, a sentiment that I have read multiple times over the last two weeks which is kind of creepy?
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Dec 5, 2015 15:59
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Because people in this thread (and other people, for that matter) for some reason keep insinuating that it's okay to shoot a bunch of people over a political disagreement No they don't.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:01
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Because people in this thread (and other people, for that matter) for some reason keep insinuating that it's okay to shoot a bunch of people over a political disagreement, a sentiment that I have read multiple times over the last two weeks which is kind of creepy? I don't think that anyone here is saying it is okay to shoot a bunch of people. I think that people are trying to figure out what caused the event to see if anything is correctable to prevent future occurrences.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:04
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Because people in this thread (and other people, for that matter) for some reason keep insinuating that it's okay to shoot a bunch of people over a political disagreement, a sentiment that I have read multiple times over the last two weeks which is kind of creepy? No, your just making up bullshit to fantasize about something that isn't real. Who the gently caress are you talking to? Link some posts that support your bullshit.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:06
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Pohl posted:No, your just making up bullshit to fantasize about something that isn't real. Who the gently caress are you talking to? Link some posts that support your bullshit. Toshimo posted:I don't even get what you are arguing. And literally a bunch of quotes on the same page that I'm not going to go back and spoon feed you
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Dec 5, 2015 16:08
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:And literally a bunch of quotes on the same page that I'm not going to go back and spoon feed you That post never said it was ok. Wtf are you talking about. That post is arguing that people should be nice to each other and that this type of thing is bad... seriously, learn how to read.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:11
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"Sky wizard"
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Dec 5, 2015 16:12
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If you are looking for someone to say "terrorism" is justified I will say it can be depending on the definition of terrorism.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:14
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Pohl posted:That post never said it was ok. Wtf are you talking about. There were other posts on that page that led up to it that pretty much implied that, along the lines of "yes, this shooting was a tragedy, but...(insert either the shooter was bullied/upset by baby killing/upset about the Middle East/ etc)
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Dec 5, 2015 16:15
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euphronius posted:If you are looking for someone to say "terrorism" is justified I will say it can be depending on the definition of terrorism. Do you think that it was justified in this, the planned parenthood, or the killdozer case?
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Dec 5, 2015 16:16
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Do you think that it was justified in this, the planned parenthood, or the killdozer case? No, no. What is the killdozer case.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:16
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Has anything important happened in Congress this month? gently caress if I'm sifting through 86 pages of "Are guns/Muslims bad?"
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Dec 5, 2015 16:16
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euphronius posted:No, no. What is the killdozer case. Shameful
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Dec 5, 2015 16:17
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Do you think that it was justified in this, the planned parenthood, or the killdozer case? killdozer is a hero to the people
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Dec 5, 2015 16:17
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euphronius posted:No, no. What is the killdozer case. dude got hella mad over a zoning dispute and turned a bulldozer into a tank that he unleashed on the town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer they shot more than 200 rounds of ammo at it and didn't make a scratch
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Dec 5, 2015 16:18
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:There were other posts on that page that led up to it that pretty much implied that, along the lines of "yes, this shooting was a tragedy, but...(insert either the shooter was bullied/upset by baby killing/upset about the Middle East/ etc) I think you are just full of poo poo. If you can't provide proof... err sorry, "spoon feed" me the posts in question, then I'm just gonna think you are full of poo poo. Basically, you are full of poo poo and talking out of your rear end.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:18
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Because people in this thread (and other people, for that matter) for some reason keep insinuating that it's okay to shoot a bunch of people over a political disagreement, a sentiment that I have read multiple times over the last two weeks which is kind of creepy? I don't think people are trying to do that, but I can kind of see what you're getting at. Everyone isn't trying to justify why he did what he did, they're trying to rationalize what might go through the mind of a crazy person to rationalize it, or think of a way it might have been prevented. Like, maybe if someone had intervened and told the one coworker to drop his poo poo talking Islam, maybe it wouldn't have come to a head that day. Was it that guys fault? gently caress no, but in the mind of a crazy person it might have been the last straw that maybe could have been put off in time to catch on to what the shooters were planning. Basically everyone is trying to warp their minds around this and nobody is trying to justify it, but again I can kind of see what you mean even though I don't think you're correct in your assumptions.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:20
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:You guys keep trying to say that you're just trying to find an explanation for the killing- which is fine, but a lot of the posts here do not come off that way at all, and are kind of giving me mental whiplash to the PP shooting last week when Twitter was clogged with right wing people saying some variation of "yes, this was a tragedy, but planned parenthood is resposible for much more death than these few people". A better analog is probably "people saying 'the provocative edited videos that paint PP as selling baby parts for profit may have contributed to this situation by creating an atmosphere of dangerous rhetoric both on the national and personal stages, and we should tread carefully when advancing said rhetoric, particularly when it's basis in fact is lacking.'" This is a better analog for two main reasons:
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Dec 5, 2015 16:20
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:There were other posts on that page that led up to it that pretty much implied that, along the lines of "yes, this shooting was a tragedy, but...(insert either the shooter was bullied/upset by baby killing/upset about the Middle East/ etc) Last time I saw this much cherry picking and creative interpretation of the written word was when a firebrand preacher was accusing the freshmen of being pawns of Satan.
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Dec 5, 2015 16:20
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Pohl posted:I think you are just full of poo poo. Toshimo posted:When the public narrative of the entire country you live in has shifted to an indictment of a significant portion of its populace based on the color of their skin and the sky wizard they choose to pray to, to the point where constant harassment and hate speech are condoned by multiple people running for the highest office in the land AND THEY ARE THE FRONTRUNNERS OF A MAJOR PARTY maybe it's a bit beyond HR?
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Dec 5, 2015 16:23
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