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Codependent Poster posted:I really liked that episode. The Doctor not giving a poo poo about anything but saving Clara was great. a Tardis that looks like a classic American Diner, don't forget that detail.
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Dec 6, 2015 06:25
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Astroman posted:
Martha left because she knew the relationship was unhealthy and to distinguish her maturity as compared to Rose.
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Dec 6, 2015 06:34
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ewe2 posted:This is the Doctor Who you get when you really don't give a poo poo any more and find plots too difficult to finish so why bother. Guess I'll be going back to classic Who, at least then they knew how stories work. I'd say it's more the Doctor Who you get when you spend all your energy writing one of the best episodes of the series and then belatedly remember that that was just the penultimate episode and you still have to write the finale.
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Dec 6, 2015 06:44
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Read a theory earlier which I think is fairly hilarious and cool. That Gallifreyan "splinter" of Clara in the 50th who told the Doctor to choose the other Tardis instead because it was more fun? That was actually the real Clara post this episode, telling the Doctor to use the Tardis he stole in this episode. And that was her final goodbye to him before going back into the chamber to die for good. There are obviously things which work against the theory, but it would be a nice tie in. Teek fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 07:02
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That was a terrible, terrible, piece of poo poo episode of doctor who, with an absolutely beautiful story, with some lovely and wonderful and interesting and compelling moments, and I loved the poo poo out of it.
ashpanash fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 07:08
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For some reason I thought this would be the Doctor and all his other incarnations yanking Gallifrey out of its hiding spot at the end of the universe and back into the regular universe. Since didn't that happen in the 50th anniversary show, was kinda sorta brought up once or twice, and has never been mentioned again?
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Dec 6, 2015 07:38
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Jet Jaguar posted:For some reason I thought this would be the Doctor and all his other incarnations yanking Gallifrey out of its hiding spot at the end of the universe and back into the regular universe. Since didn't that happen in the 50th anniversary show, was kinda sorta brought up once or twice, and has never been mentioned again? 12 only showed up to help HIDE Gallifrey. Presumably he's done it, or will do it, off-screen, and they figured there was no point to devoting an episode to re-doing something we've already seen.
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Dec 6, 2015 07:40
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I can't remember who, but somebody said that earlier in the thread it was now FACT that Susan wasn't the Doctor's granddaughter, but the President's daughter. I don't get how they came to that conclusion at all, the story is intentionally vague on details as well as "time". For all we know the President's daughter ended up being Susan's grandmother (as in, the Doctor's wife). Or the Doctor's son or daughter WAS the President. OR it was just a completely unrelated wild incident of the first Doctor's youth where he and a young lady ran away together for a brief time to have adventures (which would hardly be out of character for the Doctor!). Moffat does have a tendency to pepper his stories with little "tidbits" about the Doctor's past, but he's hardly unique in that situation (during Pertwee's time the Doctor tells at least a couple of stories about his life and times on Gallifrey, and we are exposed to a lot of little bits about the Doctor's school life during the Tom Baker era, and Cartmel was just starting - and thankfully never quite fully committed - to adding even more backstory). He tries to throw out tantalizing tidbits but keep them vague enough that they could mean or be interpreted in any number of ways. This is more of a problem for me than they fact they exist at all, as they're just specific enough to suggest some pretty massive impacts on the Doctor's vague backstory but not quite specific enough to accept or dismiss them on their own merits. EccoRaven posted:I'm sure you all Whatever you (or anybody) writes after starting a sentence this way is always going to be wrong!
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Dec 6, 2015 08:40
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Btw, I'm reasonably sure that somewhere between the Doctor's 9th and 10th regenerations, he was replaced with a doppleganger of some sort. Because pears are tasty and delicious and the Doctor is a good enough person to know that. Anyone who wouldn't want to eat a pear, or warn people against pear-eating, is on par with Davros or the Master.
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Dec 6, 2015 08:43
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MisterBibs posted:Btw, I'm reasonably sure that somewhere between the Doctor's 9th and 10th regenerations, he was replaced with a doppleganger of some sort. Because pears are tasty and delicious and the Doctor is a good enough person to know that. Anyone who wouldn't want to eat a pear, or warn people against pear-eating, is on par with Davros or the Master. and you would think anyone sick enough to like fish sticks together with custard is a gross and weird person, but, well. the explanation is that regeneration changes taste buds, too. And sometimes, tragically, this means they no longer like pears.
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Dec 6, 2015 08:47
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2house2fly posted:I'd say it's more the Doctor Who you get when you spend all your energy writing one of the best episodes of the series and then belatedly remember that that was just the penultimate episode and you still have to write the finale. I'd say you've got a point there. It's definitely not the Doctor Who you're supposed to automatically "get" or gtfo of Who nerds playhouse, because gently caress explanations of bad writing, right.
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Dec 6, 2015 08:47
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The main thing I took away from this season is that I can't trust Moffat on death ever again unless an episode actually ends with Moffat, Capaldi and a team of lawyers sitting there with an enormous contract saying that the character won't return ever again, except in flashbacks.
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Dec 6, 2015 09:57
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Ok so I'm a total casual watcher of Doctor Who, I've only really started watching it since Capaldi (and as a kid in the Eighties) but here is my DARKSIDED theory on Clara... So now Clara knows when and how she will die, she can hold it off till she's ready. As she is technically dead, she's pretty much an immortal zombie of sorts. She also has a Tardis and can go all over time and get into space japes. However if she gets injured, she can't heal. She gets more and more decrepid until she gets robot replacements. After however many years she is merely a head, but still living as she cannot die. A Dalek unit is found which can support her. She is mistaken as one, captured and put in a prison on Galifray. Do you remember that Dalek that was begging for extermination in the crypt? Boom. Or perhaps Me hosed her over and she is trying to tell them.
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Dec 6, 2015 10:37
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So when the Doctor said "The hybrid is me" he meant Me, not me. However, this also means that the Time Lords weren't listening because otherwise they wouldn't have asked him what he knows about the hybrid. They would have said something like "I see Doctor, so you're the hybrid?" Codependent Poster posted:I really liked that episode. The Doctor not giving a poo poo about anything but saving Clara was great. Also: I'm not sure what he actually knows about the hybrid but he acted like he did so that the Time Lords would help him. ewe2 posted:I'd say you've got a point there. It's definitely not the Doctor Who you're supposed to automatically "get" or gtfo of Who nerds playhouse, because gently caress explanations of bad writing, right. So you started to watch classic Doctor Who like you said?
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Dec 6, 2015 10:39
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saucerman posted:However, this also means that the Time Lords weren't listening because otherwise they wouldn't have asked him what he knows about the hybrid. They would have said something like "I see Doctor, so you're the hybrid?" Maybe they heard him, and decided that he was having a laugh. 
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Dec 6, 2015 10:52
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Rocksicles posted:/Can someone please explain in a concise way, what the gently caress happened in the last three episodes? Because it was god awful writing. Basically, Moffat not wanting to let go of his characters, and rewarding them for no real reason; it's shown repeatedly throughout the series that Clara trying to be the Doctor is a bad thing, essentially - culminating in her dying as a result of trying to be him. But oh, wait, no, now it's a good thing, and now she's got her own TARDIS, and she's sorta the Doctor with her own terrible companion. The hybrid thing is meant more as the time lords seeing the matrix prediction and coming to the wrong conclusion of "Oh poo poo, that can only mean a time lord and Dalek!", rather than a metaphorical concept of the Doctor and his travelling companion (or Masie Williams, or Missy - I don't really care to watch the ending to this again), or something in the abstract. And they were so scared shitless of this, they decided to torture him for 4 billion years to find out what the hybrid was. And it turns out that was sort of the Doctor's plan to get to Gallifrey anyway, so he could pull Clara from the time stream, and try to save her, because gently caress all those other companions I guess. And then Masie Williams appears, at the end of the universe, because why not I guess? Like we needed another super-special enigmatic woman who knows the Doctor of old. And I guess Mire tech is good for 100 googol years. Clara out Doctors the Doctor, and then she and Masie Williams fly off on their own wacky Big Finish adventures, because no companion can just die in Doctor Who anymore. (Alright, technically she does come back to die at some point, but whatever.) It's not difficult to understand, it's just kinda pointless, and sidelined the whole "Return to Gallifray" in lieu of "Clara becomes the Doctor-sorta"
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Dec 6, 2015 11:01
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The "let's toss a coin to see whose memories get wiped" was loving stupid.
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Dec 6, 2015 11:13
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The "let's toss a coin to see whose memories get wiped" was loving stupid. I liked that, since it was the Doctor realizing that he was making the decision for her and assuming that HE could handle remembering but she couldn't. After she tells him she attempted to sabotage the device, he knows it is now a crapshoot whether it works on him, or her, or both, or neither and he accepts the gamble. In doing so, he acknowledges she is an equal and not somebody he needs to make decisions for or protect/treat with kid gloves. After all, he could have just soniced it back to working as originally intended.
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Dec 6, 2015 11:17
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Really, having her forgotten by the Doctor is the best possible outcome because we will never have to hear about her again.
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Dec 6, 2015 11:26
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Jerusalem posted:I liked that, since it was the Doctor realizing that he was making the decision for her and assuming that HE could handle remembering but she couldn't. After she tells him she attempted to sabotage the device, he knows it is now a crapshoot whether it works on him, or her, or both, or neither and he accepts the gamble. In doing so, he acknowledges she is an equal and not somebody he needs to make decisions for or protect/treat with kid gloves. After all, he could have just soniced it back to working as originally intended. Plus why would Clara agree? She's made her choice to die, so taking a coinflip to get out of it just cheapens it.
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Dec 6, 2015 11:33
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thepokey posted:Also, what was that with Missy being mentioned? As I say my stream was choppy at that point and I didn't quite get why she was being brought up? Cerv posted:Clara met the Doctor by phoning the Tardis thinking it was a tech support line for her broadband. She was given the number by "the woman in the shop" and it was a bit of a mystery who that was until the show just forgot about it for a few years. until today. At the end of Flatline Missy says (while admiring what an "excellent Doctor" Clara was): "Clara. My Clara. I have chosen well." So it's definitely out there that Missy intentionally brought them together and it wasn't forgotten. saucerman fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 11:35
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Thought Masie was her best here, maybe something to do with her not playing anyone contrived now, she's simply a person at this point. We definitely had a 'classic' (stocking faced) cyberman head in the dressing for the cloisters, it's a shame it didn't make it into the ep/edit. That TARDIS manual  In case anyone is vaguely interested, I've put up a selection of work from S9 here. Excited for Christmas purely because of how brilliant Greg Davies is. Miss the chaos already 
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Dec 6, 2015 11:45
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Can someone summarize all those weird Susan theories for me? I have no idea what's going on, I feel like I missed something. I'm gonna assume that the old woman who gave the Doctor soup was the Doctor's father.
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Dec 6, 2015 11:46
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Carbon dioxide posted:Can someone summarize all those weird Susan theories for me? I have no idea what's going on, I feel like I missed something. The Doctor talks about the young man who broke into the Cloisters and survived, and mentions some of the wild stories told about him afterwards like the idea he ran off with the President's wife. Clara catches him out when he gleefully admits it was the President's daughter he ran off with, thus revealing the kid in the story was himself. At least one person in this thread took this to mean that the President's daughter was Susan, and that the Doctor "running away" with her meant that he took her and they left Gallifrey, and she started calling him Grandfather for some reason. I think it's far more likely that this was intended in the,"I was romantically involved with a girl way out of my class" sense, and if there was anything more to it that it would be far more likely she ended up being the Doctor's wife (and thus Susan's Grandmother), especially since he's talking about the exploits of when he was a young man (and I don't think he means comparatively speaking) and not an old Grandfather using a cane to get around.
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Dec 6, 2015 11:54
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Hell Bent gifs - regardless of whether people liked or disliked the episode, I think most can agree it was absolutely gorgeous looking.        
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Dec 6, 2015 12:00
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Dec 6, 2015 12:00
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echoplex posted:Thought Masie was her best here, maybe something to do with her not playing anyone contrived now, she's simply a person at this point. We definitely had a 'classic' (stocking faced) cyberman head in the dressing for the cloisters, it's a shame it didn't make it into the ep/edit. That's really loving cool dude. Which episode did they use the Rembrandt in? Did you come up with the technobabble in the TARDIS manual yourself, or were there outside guidelines or something? Shame about the stocking face cyberman head. That would have been pretty cool. I might be pretty down on this series storytelling, but you and your coworkers have done some amazing work on props and sets and all the little details. Thank you for sharing your stuff with the thread. 
Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Dec 6, 2015 |
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Dec 6, 2015 12:04
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Jerusalem posted:At least one person in this thread That was me. And I'll watch the episode again and maybe come up with a new interpretation, but That Section is important I think. I think it's much more likely that the bit of "new continuity" or whatever Moffat called it that would "drive the fans wild" (paraphrasing) was that bit than the "I left Gallifrey because I was scared" thing that people seem to assume it was, given that that bit happened in Heaven Sent and Moffat was referring to Hell Bent. I'm really not sure what else Moffat can be referring to. Zohar posted:Interesting that (judging at least from Reddit, magazine review comments, and my Facebook friends) unlike this thread most of the Internet seems to be gushing over this finale. Most of the internet gushes over every episode. Remember that episode was very much in the MCU vein of "Hey, I remember that, this is great!". Lots of references to things just to have references to things (the barn, the dalek, the angels, Rassilon, etc) and most nerds seem to loving love that kind of poo poo. DoctorWhat posted:Like people were complaining "oh no the HYBRID, how CONTRIVED" and when the loving episode makes the inanity and strangeness of the "Hybrid" plot a plot point in and of itself no one loving GETS THAT THAT WAS THE POINT. I think that line of thought only works if you buy into the Hybrid stuff in the first place. If you have the rug pulled out from underneath you that's one thing, it's another to have spent the whole time saying how poo poo and unnecessary the plotline seemed to be and then have it confirmed. If the plotline only existed to bore the audience there was absolutely no need to include it. And More posted:In his defense, Moffat had already used up his best idea for a time lord regenerating into a time lady in The Curse of Fatal Death. What was he supposed to do? Well, it's not like that's stopped him reusing things before
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Dec 6, 2015 12:05
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echoplex that stuff looks amazing, sorry so much of it was barely seen or not seen at all (especially that old school Cyberman you mentioned!)MrL_JaKiri posted:I'm really not sure what else Moffat can be referring to. I think Moffat just wanted to have his cake and eat it too - throw in a new bit of information about the Doctor's past life, but leave it vague enough and without any details so it could be interpreted to mean essentially anything. The question then really becomes,"Why bother?" but I can't imagine he'll have intended anything as extreme as changing the nature of the relationship between the Doctor and Susan. Especially since every other bit of suggested,"This will reveal some great secret of the Doctor" thing he's done has very deliberately gone nowhere/been dismissed by the Doctor himself. Like how they spent so long going on about his name, only for the Doctor (and later Clara) to point out what most of us already knew - his name is "the Doctor" and his old, pre-Doctor name is irrelevant and only has significance to those who choose to believe it did. I mean, on a scale of "Theta Sigma" (bad) to "The daisiest daisy" (good) I wouldn't rate this particular reveal on either extreme. It's just.... there. When the Doctor was young, he raised some hell including a fling with the President's daughter. Maybe more will come from that in season 10 or beyond, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
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Dec 6, 2015 12:23
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Jerusalem posted:I mean, on a scale of "Theta Sigma" (bad) to "The daisiest daisy" (good) I wouldn't rate this particular reveal on either extreme. I used to really dislike the Master being evil because Rassilon put evil drums in his head when he was a kid. But then I listened to "Master" by Joseph Lidster and the twist in its tail became the the barometer I use to judge all continuity changes in the show (or any DW media, really). As yet, there hasn't been anything I dislike as much as that, so continuity changes don't tend to bother me that much.
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Dec 6, 2015 12:58
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Okay, I'll admit, this was a bad episode. But it's a great kind of bad episode. There's like six different plot ideas in the one story and they're all absolutely batshit. And they don't so much step on each other as just last for long enough to get to the NEXT batshit idea, without reaching their own potential. It's a really fun lovely finale, and I love it. A lot of the ideas in play are good ideas that just didn't get the chance to show off, but I think the one that did, and the one that worked the best, was that the hybrid prophecy is just way too vague to be of any use. The Doctor was right, it doesn't tell you anything useful! Which means it doesn't matter, because it could just as easily refer to a Dalek/Time Lord laying waste to a whole planet, the Doctor and the Master blowing everything the gently caress up, or just Me being there at the end of it all. Since there's no value in a prophecy that open-ended, it's pointless to concern yourself about it.
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Dec 6, 2015 12:58
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Cleretic posted:Okay, I'll admit, this was a bad episode. But it's a great kind of bad episode. There's like six different plot ideas in the one story and they're all absolutely batshit. And they don't so much step on each other as just last for long enough to get to the NEXT batshit idea, without reaching their own potential. It's a really fun lovely finale, and I love it. I think this could've been a great episode if they'd dropped Heaven Sent and stretched Hell Bent out into two parts instead. The whole episode felt like a rushed set of plot points with no time to breath between each, and the Sliders were a complete non-threat. It has a lot of good, and even great, moments on their own merits but falls flat as a collective whole. I'm also not a fan of the new Sonic Screwdriver, though it is nice to see The Doctor's going to have one again. The design just looks a little too busy to me. One question for echoplex though, in the scene where the Doctor's drawing a line in the dirt is that gunship a superimposed model or just CGI? I swear it looks like a model.
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Dec 6, 2015 13:24
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PriorMarcus posted:Really, having her forgotten by the Doctor is the best possible outcome because we will never have to hear about her again. we'll definitely hear about her again in a later episode before Moffat's tenure ends.
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Dec 6, 2015 13:27
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Dec 6, 2015 13:31
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I mean, I get where the guy's coming from...but he seems to be forgetting an overwhelming male bias in media as it is.
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Dec 6, 2015 14:01
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And that bruised male ego might have been the single most destructive force in human history 
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Dec 6, 2015 14:05
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Most of the internet gushes over every episode. Remember that episode was very much in the MCU vein of "Hey, I remember that, this is great!". Lots of references to things just to have references to things (the barn, the dalek, the angels, Rassilon, etc) and most nerds seem to loving love that kind of poo poo. Moffat's quite good at that sort of thing.
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Dec 6, 2015 14:12
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DoctorWhat posted:This is the Doctor Who you get when you decide you want to tell a story about character relationships but have to deal with nerds who complain when there's a sci-fi mythos plotarc and then complain when the arc's actually a red herring and it was supposed to be about the characters all along. I'm not sure that I read anyone complaining that the 'plot wasn't sci-fi enough'. You know that a story can be written which has a focus on character interrelations and a plot which doesn't feel like it's made of wall filler, right?
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Dec 6, 2015 14:31
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saucerman posted:At the end of Flatline Missy says (while admiring what an "excellent Doctor" Clara was): "Clara. My Clara. I have chosen well." Well there's also Death In Heaven where there's an entire scene with flashbacks devoted exclusively to explaining that Missy intentionally put them together.
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Dec 6, 2015 14:49
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I think it's much more likely that the bit of "new continuity" or whatever Moffat called it that would "drive the fans wild" (paraphrasing) was that bit than the "I left Gallifrey because I was scared" thing that people seem to assume it was, given that that bit happened in Heaven Sent and Moffat was referring to Hell Bent. I haven't read the quote you are referring to, but in that context, doesn't it sound like the "new continuity" is the adventures of Clara and Me, which basically becomes a fan-fiction spin-off?
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Dec 6, 2015 14:56
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