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Davincie posted:anyway, sayaka is definitely on top of my tier list This is correct. How many shows were directly influenced by Madoka? I think Yuki Yuuna (Japanese Madoka), Genei Taiyou (Tarot Madoka), and Vividred (Hotpants Homura) all seem like good candidates, but I'm not sure if they had source material prior to Madoka.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:04
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^^^ Definitely Valvrave. Saki's rape by an unconscious Haruto was clearly a direct allusion to Madoka's unintended emotional abuse of Homura.Twiddy posted:It's kind of incredible that people really play up the dark aspects and suffering of MM without remembering it goes back to "oh yeah and then hope triumphs over despair and Madoka brings everyone back to life and they're mostly happier." Speaking of this, I never did understand the ending of the original series. From what I understand, Madoka rewrote the universe. So the scenes with all the magical girls (minus Madoka of course) technically take place in the (now different, re-written) past, right? I'm not sure how Homura keeping her memories of the other universe fits into this. Does 5 year old Homura in the new universe also remember stuff from the original universe? Or did Homura's consciousness just merge with the new universe's Homura at around the same age as Homura was when the original universe was rewritten? Lord Justice posted:"Sayaka: Looks like... I ended up causing you a lot of trouble. As I think another poster mentioned, I interpreted this as Madoka saying "sorry that the wish I chose wasn't able to prevent you from becoming a magical girl (etc)" and then trying to console Sayaka by telling her that even if it's not ideal, what she did still had a big positive impact. The only thing that gives any indication that Ultimate Madoka can do anything other than execute the Law of Cycles is her giving Homura the ribbon. But I don't think this implies she has further powers for a couple reasons: The first is that I believe it was due to Homura's powers, not Ultimate Madoka's, that she was able to keep her memories and keep the ribbon. Second (and probably most importantly), I honestly don't think we're supposed to think too hard about that scene; it was just supposed to be a cathartic opportunities for Madoka to thank Homura and leave something behind after ceasing to exist. Twiddy posted:I feel like we had a very different experience when watching Madoka. I'm not entirely sure what about the deep shadows, ominous angles, etc is trying to bring you into a false sense of security. Yeah, I've always been confused by all these people that supposedly thought Madoka was a "cutesy magical girl show" up until Mami's death. Even in the first episode it had a very subdued/surreal feel to it and the first witch-related stuff you see is still creepy as hell. I feel like it's mostly a matter of people liking the idea of a series tricking you like that + lots of people have talked about Madoka doing this (and if there's one thing that nerds/anime fans like, it's having shared cultural experiences). So even if, by themselves, they would realize that the series had a pretty ominous tone from the first episode, they feel the need to agree with all the other anime fans who like to discuss how completely surprised they were by Mami's death and the supposed tone change associated with it. People being surprised by Mami's death also confuses me. It was telegraphed to all hell from the moment Mami starts talking to Madoka about how she is happy she finally found friends. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jan 12, 2016 |
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Jan 12, 2016 21:42
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PerrineClostermann posted:How many shows were directly influenced by Madoka? I think Yuki Yuuna (Japanese Madoka), Genei Taiyou (Tarot Madoka), and Vividred (Hotpants Homura) all seem like good candidates, but I'm not sure if they had source material prior to Madoka. Agree on those, though Yuki Yuuna has its own tone and goes in a different direction from Madoka. Selector Infected WIXOSS is the other big one since it's basically Madoka: the Gathering, complete with wishes and angst. Lestaki fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jan 12, 2016 |
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Jan 12, 2016 21:43
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Ytlaya posted:I'm not sure how Homura keeping her memories of the other universe fits into this. Does 5 year old Homura in the new universe also remember stuff from the original universe? Or did Homura's consciousness just merge with the new universe's Homura at around the same age as Homura was when the original universe was rewritten? I think Wraith Arc confirms that it's basically the latter.
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Jan 12, 2016 21:55
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Ytlaya posted:^^^ Definitely Valvrave. Saki's rape by an unconscious Haruto was clearly a direct allusion to Madoka's unintended emotional abuse of Homura. I get the joke, but it's a bad joke
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Jan 12, 2016 21:58
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Some say Wixoss' premise comes off the coattails of the meguca, but that plot was clearly an Okada original. what a loving ride, and now I'm reminded that it's not even over.....
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Jan 12, 2016 21:59
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Ytlaya posted:^^^ Definitely Valvrave. Saki's rape by an unconscious Haruto was clearly a direct allusion to Madoka's unintended emotional abuse of Homura.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:04
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also madoka magica didn't invent wishes and angst
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Jan 12, 2016 22:04
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I think I've said everything meaningful in terms of Madoka and Homura, and at this point, we're probably going to end up arguing in circles over subjective interpretations of vague text. My thanks for the intriguing debate. As for whether Madoka is unique or not, I ask the question, does it matter? Would Madoka being more "unique", really help it as an artistic work? Madoka is what it is precisely because it builds off the foundation of many other works, and then uses that to tell an incredibly well-constructed story.
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Jan 12, 2016 22:23
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Endorph posted:also madoka magica didn't invent wishes and angst liar
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Jan 12, 2016 22:29
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Endorph posted:also madoka magica didn't invent wishes and angst Lord Justice posted:As for whether Madoka is unique or not, I ask the question, does it matter? Would Madoka being more "unique", really help it as an artistic work? Madoka is what it is precisely because it builds off the foundation of many other works, and then uses that to tell an incredibly well-constructed story. Overall, it's just a funny thing that surrounded the hype behind MM. It's not the source's fault that people chose to be incredibly dumb about it. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Jan 12, 2016 |
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Jan 12, 2016 22:37
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Endorph posted:also madoka magica didn't invent wishes and angst And Selector Infected WIXOSS didn't invent trying to cash in on a notable hit series with a poorly written imitation. It was actually kind of entertaining and I'll probably watch the movie but I call them how I see them.
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Jan 12, 2016 23:26
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the way you see them is wrong.
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Jan 12, 2016 23:31
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I watched this show back in 2011 and I loved it a lot. I have not yet followed up with any of the movies though. I heard Rebellion was a good movie to watch? I kind of don't want to see it though because I thought the ending was really good left where it was.
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Jan 12, 2016 23:32
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I think a better line of thinking isn't so much how unique it is/isn't but rather, what attracted the large audience when other shows of its type didn't?
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Jan 12, 2016 23:32
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Twiddy posted:No, it doesn't matter at all. It's that uniqueness is a trait that gets overhyped by wannabe creative types, and you got a lot of people praising it for that aspect. That's relatively fine when you're talking about random internet yahoos, but as soon as you got article writers talking about it it showed they were probably under educated on the topics they were trying to discuss. If I can't trust the ANN writers and their minimal qualifications, who can I trust???
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Jan 12, 2016 23:34
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arisu posted:I watched this show back in 2011 and I loved it a lot. I have not yet followed up with any of the movies though.
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Jan 12, 2016 23:35
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Endorph posted:the way you see them is wrong. If you have an actual argument I'm all ears. Srice posted:I think a better line of thinking isn't so much how unique it is/isn't but rather, what attracted the large audience when other shows of its type didn't? Execution. This was raised by someone earlier but Madoka was just a really competent execution of the premise and that's actually what matters. Originality doesn't really come into it, and I'd be kinder to the later imitators if they were better.
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Jan 12, 2016 23:37
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Ytlaya posted:^^^ Definitely Valvrave. Saki's rape by an unconscious Haruto was clearly a direct allusion to Madoka's unintended emotional abuse of Homura..  Here are my thoughts on Madoka: it's drat fine show that does some interesting things. The tone is great and I would recommend it to people. I don't know why the show gets so much analysis though and a lot of reading into things that I don't think are there but whatever.
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Jan 12, 2016 23:39
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arisu posted:I watched this show back in 2011 and I loved it a lot. I have not yet followed up with any of the movies though. Rebellion is an excellent movie and well worth watching if you liked the original Madoka series. I would consider it a necessary part of it, although it goes without saying at this point that Rebellion is very contentious with how it handled the ending of the series. If you liked that ending you may not like what Rebellion does. I'd recommend going into it with an open mind and an eye towards re-watching it if you didn't hate it on an initial viewing, Rebellion is such that you most likely won't really understand it the first time. Edit: The two movies prior to Rebellion, The Beginning Story and The Eternal Story, are a redone version of the series. If you wanted to rewatch the series before watching Rebellion, I'd recommend watching the movies, as they're designed to be "rewatch vehicles" and they're better produced than the series was. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 12, 2016 23:50
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https://twitter.com/SANamtab/status/687044423478317057
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Jan 12, 2016 23:52
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Lord Justice posted:Rebellion is an excellent movie and well worth watching if you liked the original Madoka series. I would consider it a necessary part of it, although it goes without saying at this point that Rebellion is very contentious with how it handled the ending of the series. If you liked that ending you may not like what Rebellion does. I'd recommend going into it with an open mind and an eye towards re-watching it if you didn't hate it on an initial viewing, Rebellion is such that you most likely won't really understand it the first time. I watched rebellion once and I understood it
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Jan 12, 2016 23:53
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Ytlaya posted:^^^ Definitely Valvrave. Saki's rape by an unconscious Haruto was clearly a direct allusion to Madoka's unintended emotional abuse of Homura. 13:30 - far shot of Homura looking over the ruined city 13:34 - shot of Homura’s feet, ragged and hanging, Madoka laughing. Panning up to Homura’s face until 13:43, without pausing to stare at her boobs like so many other animes 13:43 - close-up of Homura’s face (look of rage at 13:53) 13:54 - Looking at Madoka talking to Homura 13:58 - medium-far shot of Homura, her body is darkened rather than well-lit. Madoka gloating 14:11 - beginning of bad touch scene. The lighting of Madoka is bright, the lighting on Homura is dark, guiding the eye to Madoka, not Homura. 14:21 - Four second butt shot 14:25 - Close-up of a look of rage on Homura’s face 14:29 - Close-up of Madoka’s face. Gloating. 14:36 - shot panning downwards from above Madoka’s face to her face. Seven seconds. No cleavage. 14:43 to 15:39 - Backstory. 15:40 - Far panning shot of ruined city. 15:56 - Butt slap. 15:57 - Shot of Kyubey and Homura’s face. This time, the lighting is on Homura. 16:03 - Closeup of Homura’s face into a close-up of Madoka’s face. Still enraged / still gloating 16:09 - Shot of Homura’s legs from halfway down her thighs and panning downwards. 16:17 - Backwards shot of a bad touch sweeping down from Homura’s chest down to her behind. 16:28 - From Homura’s face into Madoka’s face. 16:36 - Butt slap. 16:37 - Far shot of ruined city. Dark. More butt slaps and Madoka emphasizing how much she wants Homura to hate her. 16:40 - Close up of faces. Butt slaps continue. 16:44 - Homura’s face, still mad. Still slapping. Maniacal laughter from Madoka. 16:51 - End of the scene. Let's recap - lots of exposition no lingering on boobs lighting that deliberately de-emphasized Homura's body lots of focus on the faces fostering Homura's anger made a part of the conversation deliberately If you think they spent a bunch of time on Homura's body you were paying attention to the wrong loving thing and you're using disgust to justify voyeurism. The scene wasn't fanservice. God drat. It was a textbook deconstruction.
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Jan 12, 2016 23:53
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tfw lord justice is getting close to triple digits in rebellion rewatches
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Jan 12, 2016 23:55
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Lord Justice posted:As for whether Madoka is unique or not, I ask the question, does it matter? Would Madoka being more "unique", really help it as an artistic work? Madoka is what it is precisely because it builds off the foundation of many other works, and then uses that to tell an incredibly well-constructed story. It doesn't really matter in terms of whether Madoka is a great anime that is worth watching, but pointing out that it isn't really unique is a pretty good argument against it being particularly profound or groundbreaking (which seems to be a somewhat common opinion). And if you want to talk about the very best art, a lot of it involves either introducing some new/unique idea and/or exhibiting prodigious skill in a particular medium. While I guess you could say that Madoka does the latter, television anime is such a relatively immature and heavily commercialized medium that it's kind of hard to say if the best anime is really comparable to the best, say, literature in the grand scheme of things. Satoshi Kon films, for example, seem to fit "exhibit prodigious skill in the medium" better than Madoka (and I personally would rank something like Tatami Galaxy above Madoka in terms of television anime as art), so if Madoka wants to distinguish itself as the/one of the best anime it seems like it would kind of need to do something unique or noteworthy in terms of plot/ideas. My personal feeling is that Madoka is basically the equivalent of a very good book/movie, but I doubt it will be something people constantly reference in terms of plot/writing in 50+ years. If you were doing some college class specifically about anime*, I could see it coming up as one of the best titles of a 10-20 year period, but I don't know if it would come up if you were discussing the best animated shows/films of all time. I think I mentioned this in some other post, but I think part of the reason Madoka is so popular is that it is complex enough to be interesting and warrant discussion, but simple enough that you don't actually have to be particularly smart or knowledgeable to comprehend it or understand the analysis of others. I am not really smart or knowledgeable enough when it comes to literary theory to understand what makes some of the greatest literature so well-regarded, and a lot of literary criticism goes over my head. But, even as a layperson, I can easily understand what people have to say about Madoka. *I actually had one of these during my freshman year at NYU in 2004 as a Gen Ed requirement, though the course was supposed to be vaguely about Japan/Japanese culture rather than anime specifically. It turns out the professor's main course was about anime so he just tailored this course to his existing materials. I remember watching (during class, not for homework) Otaku no Video, excerpts of Evangelion, and Ghost in the Shell. I also remember learning that apparently 90% of all anime is connected to the atomic bomb in some way. edit: Dick Spacious CPA posted:16:37 - Far shot of ruined city. Dark. More butt slaps and Madoka emphasizing how much she wants Homura to hate her. I actually lol'd when picturing this particular substitution. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 00:15
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Srice posted:I will say tho that it was lame af when after the show aired people tried to sell it to newcomers as an innocuous happy show that you can't judge until you see ep 3 :iamafag: It's pretty fun. 
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Jan 13, 2016 00:47
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Ytlaya posted:I think I mentioned this in some other post, but I think part of the reason Madoka is so popular is that it is complex enough to be interesting and warrant discussion, but simple enough that you don't actually have to be particularly smart or knowledgeable to comprehend it or understand the analysis of others. I am not really smart or knowledgeable enough when it comes to literary theory to understand what makes some of the greatest literature so well-regarded, and a lot of literary criticism goes over my head. But, even as a layperson, I can easily understand what people have to say about Madoka. I think Madoka is popular because - it's got no obviously repellent elements, which might otherwise scare non-anime viewers off - it's got cool, good and relatable characters whose drama you're actually invested in - it's got ridiculously haunting and memorable music - it's got unique monsters where you can actually say that you've never seen anything like it before - it's got a plot that doses exposition, soul-crushing cruelty and ultimately hope in just the right way - it's got lot of unique, abstract and plain weird scene composition, not just in the labyrinths - it's got scenes where there's nothing but static talking heads, yet it's shot in engaging ways - it's got rad action with genuinely cool superpower gimmicks (you know which one I mean) - it's got episode 10. I read a lot of comments and whatnot on Madoka - thankfully forgetting all spoilers, except that Kyubey is evil -, and I was never intrigued in the least. Perhaps I wrote the wrong kind of analysis, the tryhard version. But when I actually saw the thing, I was hooked immediately. Not just the third episode, right away (after the admittedly unnoteworthy intro). I think that, to explain this series, we should never move too far from the pretty pictures and the cool music. I cannot imagine Madoka as a book, a game, or what have you - so I like focussing on what it does particularly well in its medium. It's also why I appreciate Lord Justice usually posting screenshots alongside his thoughts! I like speculating as much as anyone else, but the sheer craftsmanship evident will always be more important to me.
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Jan 13, 2016 18:53
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Just started watching this with a bro, we were not prepared. We're 4 episodes in and I know the only direction things can go is down.
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Jan 13, 2016 19:10
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Do you think Usagi and Madoka would be pals?
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Jan 13, 2016 19:20
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It's Wednesday, so time for another analysis on the Concept Movie. As I said before, this is an attempt at objective analysis, and trying to figure out what the Concept Movie is hinting towards in the next Madoka project. This doesn't mean I personally agree with or like what I've found. With that said, the topic this week is... Homura and Madoka’s New Relationship “I taught you the name of a flower; by the Magic of May, we were in love.” - Gogatsu no Mahou [Kalafina: Far on the Water] Within the Concept Movie, we see hints of the continuation of Madoka and Homura’s relationship, into a new form not seen in Madoka so far. Given the evidence present both in the Concept Movie and in Rebellion, the interpretation here is that Madoka and Homura have become romantically involved. First is the series of dialogue from Mami, Homura, and Madoka near the end of the Concept Movie: Mami: “ あなたもあなたで、誰と一緒の時も隠し事ばっかりね。” Literally: "It's just the matter of you also hiding from yourself your time spent together with someone." Homura: “ 私の邪魔をしようっていうの? “ Literally: “You say you will (get in my way/be an obstacle to me)?” Madoka: “ もう誰も恨まなくていいの。あなたは……私が……。” Literally: “"You don't have to (resent/bear a grudge against/etc) anyone anymore. You...I..." (Thanks to Vice Virtuoso for translations) First is what Madoka says. Given the context in which it is stated, it seems to imply that Madoka is addressing someone she is romantically involved with. The important part, in Japanese: “あなたは…私が…” “Anata wa... watashi ga...” Which is said in a trailing fashion, such that the sentence is incomplete. While the reasonable assumption is Madoka will say “いる” “Iru”, which basically translates into what the Reddit translation was: “You... Have... Me...”, it’s still unknown what Madoka was intending with the sentence. Essentially, a reasonable reading of the dialogue suggests the “romantic” interpretation. As well, while I am reasonably confident she is addressing Homura, that too is still an unknown, but the “anata” does seem to have a larger role, and plays into why I believe she is addressing Homura. While “anata” more or less translates into “you” in English, it can, in many contexts, be a rather rude way of addressing a person. Here, given the familiarity between Madoka and Homura along with Madoka’s usual method of being very polite when addressing people, it makes more sense in another usage of the word. Per Tae Kim’s Japanese grammar guide: “「あなた」 is also an old-fashioned way for women to refer to their husband or lover.” While this term is somewhat outdated at this point in its usage and the line itself is weak evidence with this interpretation, it does seem to work together with the previous dialogue lines. Next is the line by Mami: "It's just the matter of you also hiding from yourself your time spent together with someone” This part seems to suggest that Homura (making the assumption that Mami is referring to Homura, she also uses “anata”, although in the more rude fashion) is spending time with someone and hiding it from herself. This plays into a larger hypothesis I’ll be getting into later, but for now, the important part here is “spend time together”. Homura is spending time with someone, most likely Madoka, and is attempting to hide it from herself and others. Given Homura’s reluctance in engaging with Madoka in this manner in prior works, this would seem to tie into the romantic inclination interpretation. I.E, it is something that Homura wants to do, and is either actively doing or attempting to do, but also trying to hide it. Finally, Homura seems to rebut this: “You say you will (get in my way/be an obstacle to me)?” Which seems to indicate that Mami may be attempting to interfere with the relationship for some reason, and that Homura will attempt to stop her if she tries. With that said, these dialogue lines could be disparate parts and unrelated, especially given the amount of time between each line in the Concept Movie. However, if we assume that they work together, then it is possible to create a valid interpretation out of the dialogue, which is then supported by two other factors. Next, and as others have noted, is the band worn on the fourth finger of Homura’s left hand, which signifies marriage:  While the context is still an unknown at this point, it may tie into themes from Rebellion that are not present in the Concept Movie. Specifically, the red thread of fate, which was an important part of Rebellion:  This red thread is a common image in East Asian fiction, which represents the destined bond between two people. Within Madoka, it could represent that Madoka and Homura are fated to be together in Homura’s new world. In Rebellion, this thread combines with Homura’s Soul Gem to create her Dark Orb:  This Dark Orb contains her Labyrinth and her fantasy, which is this new world. Essentially, this thread, and the destiny it represents, is not only a critical part of the construction of this fantasy but is often a signifier of marriage, and is thus a further indicator of this new relationship. But what does this relationship really look like? To get a better understanding of what may be really going on here, next week I'll be returning to Rebellion to look at The Role of Fate Within the Fantasy.
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Jan 13, 2016 19:36
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girls can't love girls
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Jan 13, 2016 19:48
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lies
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Jan 13, 2016 19:48
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Finally, LJ posts his OTP E: Namtab posted:What do you think of kyouko x madoka as a couple Lord Justice posted:They're secret friends Lord Justice backtracks! E: That's kyouko, not homuhomu. I can't read Namtab fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 19:57
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Namtab posted:Finally, LJ posts his OTP To be clear I'm not really the biggest fan of these findings, but the evidence is such that I feel I can't really ignore it either.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:00
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E: gently caress it I don't know japanese, but I'm sure you're wrong
Namtab fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 20:05
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2016 is not the year we can finally show lesbians in Japanese cartoons, sorry.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:06
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Namtab posted:E: gently caress it I don't know japanese, but I'm sure you're wrong If I am, the deciding factor would be if, at any point prior to this, Madoka referred to Homura with "Anata" rather than "Akemi-san" or "Homura-chan". Does she do so? I can't remember an instance, but if she did, then yes, that evidence would be a lot weaker than it is already. Edit: To be even more clear I'm not attempting to advance a position, just illustrate what I've found. I'd honestly like to be wrong on this, but again, the evidence is such that I feel I can't ignore it either. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 20:10
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Lord Justice posted:This Dark Orb contains her Labyrinth and her fantasy, which is this new world. Essentially, this thread, and the destiny it represents, is not only a critical part of the construction of this fantasy but is often a signifier of marriage, and is thus a further indicator of this new relationship. Does this mean that the rest of the "normal" world just continues existing outside of this new world? I was under the impression that Homura somehow rewrote existence.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:14
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My understanding is that anata can also be more impersonal (a general "you"), or used to make serious formal statements. It's generally only "rude" if used towards a superior (for example, mami is ok to use "anata" with both girls because she is in a socially superior postition, but for either of them to use "anata" would be rude). "Anata" is only rude in certain situations, but it is very impersonal. "anta" "kimi" or "omae" would be ruder. My thoughts would be to see how madoka addresses homura in general throughout the next thing, and her general attitude towards her. If this is the basis for a sequel to rebellion, then madoka has no memory of homura and may therefore be talking to her differently in general.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:17
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a cartoon duck posted:2016 is not the year we can finally show lesbians in Japanese cartoons, sorry. Yuri bears already saved animated lesbians
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Jan 13, 2016 20:18
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