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kapparomeo posted:We shouldn't be encouraging it either way, whether it be medics who just chuck some pills at a patient to be done with him quickly or patients who are absolutely certain that their runny nose is really Bloaty Head because they read it on a website once and demand a full treatment course or they'll scream the place out. I'm neither vegetarian nor a member of the RSPCA you retarded piece of poo poo. You meanwhile, are a slavery-apologist neo-imperialist piece of subhuman garbage. Go jump in a tank of pig slurry and do the world a favour.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:22
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Tesseraction posted:Just because it doesn't help a narrative doesn't mean that people don't abuse the urgency system. I mean I don't particularly care if people do that assuming the GPs can handle all their urgent appointments but whereas benefit scrounging in the one in a million chance where it does happen is a basically victimless crime (assuming you aren't someone who needs to eat pennies to live), overloading your already-overworked-and-underpaid GP with bed-rest treatable illnesses is slightly more harmful a) as it increases the chance your GP could get sick with something that can't be treated and b) may well bump one of those 'it's probably nothing and I don't want to be a bother' people off of the waiting list because there were no appointments any time soon and hey, I'll probably be better soon. The solution to this is an expansion of services, not casting a stern look at hypochondriacs.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:25
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Renaissance Robot posted:The solution to this is an expansion of services, not casting a stern look at hypochondriacs. Well of course, but I'm not in charge of the Department of Health right now Robot!! In fact I'm not even in charge of anything health-related.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:29
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Oberleutnant posted:I'm neither vegetarian nor a member of the RSPCA you retarded piece of poo poo. You meanwhile, are a slavery-apologist neo-imperialist piece of subhuman garbage.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:29
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I'm not even in control of my posting whooooaaaaaaaaa *crashes out of wall of thread and into GBS*
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Feb 1, 2016 21:29
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Chocolate Teapot posted:Jesus loving Christ My wife is American and her mother died a few years ago from breast cancer. While she was alive and undergoing treatment, I was visiting at their place in Colorado and helped my FiL set up a spreadsheet to track the medical expenses. He was a senior manager at a big defence contractor, basically one step below director level, and he had gold plated insurance from his work - this was pre ACA. He was paying in the region of $20k a year in premiums deducted from his salary. On top of that he'd paid about 30k in co-pays for various procedures up to that point. On top of that, he'd also had to pay out of pocket for about 750k of stuff that the insurance wouldn't cover anymore because the insurance had refused to pay for it. All of this was money he had to pay or his wife would die, none of it was elective, none of it was for stuff that hadn't been signed off as medically necessary by a doctor. He had to sell his RV, his boat, his quad bikes (he didn't spend a lot of money on stuff but he liked his outdoor toys) and remortgage his house. Just because his wife lost the cancer lottery. He was 'lucky' because he had assets to sell and some savings to pour into that hole. If he hadn't had a way to come up with about 800k in cash, then his choices would have been all about how fast he wanted his wife to die. Remember also that in the US, if you file for bankruptcy, health care bills still need to be paid in full afterwards. Health care costs were the number one driver of bankruptcies in the US, and declaring bankruptcy doesn't discharge your obligations to pay them. I'll take two weeks to see my over-worked and underpaid GP over that kind of actively evil fuckery.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:30
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Oberleutnant posted:I'm neither vegetarian nor a member of the RSPCA you retarded piece of poo poo. You meanwhile, are a slavery-apologist neo-imperialist piece of subhuman garbage. Otherwise it would also cover members of the working class who seek to improve the condition of the working class. And if you are then I think you have a list somewhere you can add your name.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:32
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its also worth pointing out that healthcare costs with insurance are also far and away the biggest reason for bankruptcy in the US. There is the rather odd attitude they take to drugs too. i've dislocated my shoulder here and in the US. Here I got IV morphine and midazolam and they popped it back in when I could barely feel anything. In the US they used force to get it back in then wrote me a prescription for percocet that i really did not need instead. Thats not including having to pay for having it x-rayed and popped back in which was cheaper than it might have been because I was able to go to a clinic instead of A&E
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Feb 1, 2016 21:33
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Seaside Loafer posted:Dude chill. He is right "kapparomeo is right" - seaside loafer 2016
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Feb 1, 2016 21:34
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Tesseraction posted:I'm not even in control of my posting whooooaaaaaaaaa *crashes out of wall of thread and into GBS* God loving dammit tess have you been drinking I'm not arguing with you if you've been drinking Because I haven't and I'd feel at a disadvantage.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:37
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In a related note im going to be spending tommorow morning in an actual live 999 NHS call reciever place in a systems analyst capacity. I didnt want to go cos I didnt want to bother them and I think I know their system already but my jerkoff toryboy collegue booked it anyway so i might as well now but it will be interesting im sure. If there is anything interesting to post i'll post it tommorow night.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:39
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No I've had to severely cut back on my drinking since 150-170 units / week was technically killing me. Also literally killing me. I'm posting like this because I didn't fall asleep until 4:10 this morning and had to get up at 10 to 8. Felt bad yo.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:39
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Yikes. Sleep deprivation is the actual worst 
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Feb 1, 2016 21:43
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 nosleep buddyI find the best solution is
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Feb 1, 2016 21:47
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The system here in the US could be insane at (all) times. Hospitals realize actual humans can't afford insurance prices, and will knock off a big portion of the bill if you weren't insured (dunno if this applies post ACA). They also usually have a fund to help people with bills if they can't afford it. I had a week long stay in a psych ward/meds/transport written off by the Catholic hospital I was at. Having insurance automatically made you intelligible, so at times being uninsured was better than being insured. Excluding anything chronic, but your insurance would try to weasel out of that too. 
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Feb 1, 2016 21:49
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Malcolm XML posted:yeah which is why medical co-pays are a bad idea. if minor self-policing of not running to the gp every time you get the sniffles is too much, your other option is forking over 10 quid each time. No the other option is properly funding the NHS so there are enough resources in place for people to get seen and triaged, not putting financial penalties in place so people don't seek early treatment
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Feb 1, 2016 21:50
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baka kaba posted:No the other option is properly funding the NHS so there are enough resources in place for people to get seen and triaged, not putting financial penalties in place so people don't seek early treatment what do you do in the interim -- training doctors and building hospitals takes a long time to get started? triage in a public system relies on some degree of self-triage, namely not demanding antibiotics when you have a cold and not faking urgency when you know it's not required. e: and even in a properly funded system for various reasons you can have a shortage of resources: for example, the supply of certain drugs occasionally have production issues and then you are faced with figuring out a way to deal w/ that and it isn't just dispensing it to everyone who asks Malcolm XML fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 21:53
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Malcolm XML posted:what do you do in the interim -- training doctors and building hospitals takes a long time to get started? triage in a public system relies on some degree of self-triage, namely not demanding antibiotics when you have a cold and not faking urgency when you know it's not required. Maintain that early treatment is better because that will probably save more lives than encouraging people to self-diagnose, accept that underfunding, as always, has and will continue to cost lives.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:57
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This is making me feel even more conflicted about whether I should go to the doctor about the weird lump that appeared in my mouth.
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Feb 1, 2016 21:59
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hookerbot 5000 posted:This is making me feel even more conflicted about whether I should go to the doctor about the weird lump that appeared in my mouth. Go to the doctor.
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Feb 1, 2016 22:00
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kapparomeo posted:We shouldn't be encouraging it either way, whether it be medics who just chuck some pills at a patient to be done with him quickly or patients who are absolutely certain that their runny nose is really Bloaty Head because they read it on a website once and demand a full treatment course or they'll scream the place out. You've pivoted here from "people shouldn't go to their GP unless it's really serious" (potentially dangerous as it assumes that the average person can tell what's serious) to "people shouldn't demand inappropriate treatments from their GP" which I think we can all agree with. You might've seen this post floating round Facebook but it's a pretty good argument against amateur diagnosis. Whether you think that rash on your leg is probably nothing or you're convinced your headache is cancer, "don't consult a doctor" is generally not a recommended course of action. I mean I do understand the "don't go unless it's serious" mindset to a certain extent: I'm young and active and through a combination of that and very good fortune haven't had to see a doctor in about a decade. If I were more prone to serious illness though I'd be way more likely to head to the doc's if I was feeling a little under the weather, and I'm not going to criticise others for doing that even if some of them are annoying hypochondriacs. e: I guess the corollary to "go to the loving doctor" is "listen to the loving doctor". Party Boat fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 22:00
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OwlFancier posted:Go to the doctor. Go to the doctor for weird lumps. 100%
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Feb 1, 2016 22:01
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Even if it means they call in a junior to come and have a go with your bollocks. You still feel better afterwards (and also don't die of cancer as much) Though I guess if you're offered a urethroscopy (or whatever they called) I do not recommend that procedure it is very unpleasant. CT scan is fun though. ITT post reviews of medical procedures. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 22:02
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hookerbot 5000 posted:This is making me feel even more conflicted about whether I should go to the doctor about the weird lump that appeared in my mouth. pop it and see what happens imo
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Feb 1, 2016 22:04
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Go to the doctor. Vastly better to find out it's some normal benign thing that will go away in a month than to die of cancer or something. I had some weird lumps in my earlobes a few years ago, they were just something with my sebaceous glands, perfectly harmless and went away after awhile. I tried to apologize (out of habit) for taking up his time, but the doctor was sternly insistent that I did the right thing going to see him and should always do so with lumps or the like.
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Feb 1, 2016 22:07
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Malcolm XML posted:what do you do in the interim -- training doctors and building hospitals takes a long time to get started? triage in a public system relies on some degree of self-triage, namely not demanding antibiotics when you have a cold and not faking urgency when you know it's not required. No it doesn't, you can try to educate people (and that should be happening, especially about antibiotics) but at the end of the day it's more important to make the system free and accessible to everyone. It's better to treat people who don't need it than to turn away people who do. And a fee isn't necessarily going to deter the right people anyway When you start talking about how people should stop using the NHS so much you're shifting the responsibility for the current situation from the government (whose job it is to fund and invest in it adequately) to the population. The one thing you don't do in the interim is erode the NHS's entire mission statement and fundamentally change how it works And the responsibility for prescribing antibiotics lies with medical professionals. If people don't like it they can do one IMO. A national campaign along the lines of 'hey you're an idiot' might help
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Feb 1, 2016 22:07
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OwlFancier posted:Though I guess if you're offered a urethroscopy (or whatever they called) I do not recommend that procedure it is very unpleasant. Better than a penisectomy because you didn't get that lump looked at. I strongly recommend having your junk checked out on a regular basis. Also I guess you should see a doctor once in a while?
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Feb 1, 2016 22:14
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Renaissance Robot posted:The solution to this is an expansion of services, not casting a stern look at hypochondriacs. It can be both. It's both. We both need to educate the population more so that they don't demand non-functional medicines which are actively harmful to public health (and this includes both unnecessary antibiotics and snake oil bullshit like homeopathy) from their doctors when all they need is rest and fluids, and to expand the health services so that GPs can adequately cope with real demand.
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Feb 1, 2016 22:14
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Ive had these 3 small strange slightly squdigy lumps on my right leg for 20 years now, unoticable unless you look closely or are in possesion of my body.. i remember being slightly freaked out by them at the time because they seemed to appear almost overnight. still wonder what those loving things are, maybe they are about to hatch, only a powerfull organism would require a 20 year gestation period
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Feb 1, 2016 22:15
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Sadly all I got was "the only treatment we could do will make it worse" But yes definitely get your doctor to inspect your penis as often as you can.
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Feb 1, 2016 22:15
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Just as another example, people call out ambulances for non-emergency stuff, which is obviously a problem. Should we start charging people for that like the blasted wasteland of healthcare that is the US?
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Feb 1, 2016 22:17
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OwlFancier posted:Maintain that early treatment is better because that will probably save more lives than encouraging people to self-diagnose, ehh unless you have hard evidence this can be misleading, see PSA testing in men. most of the trade groups have campaigned to make people aware that minor ailments are not worth GP time and that's basically all you can realistically ask from laymen but quote:accept that underfunding, as always, has and will continue to cost lives. is of course true
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Feb 1, 2016 22:17
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baka kaba posted:Just as another example, people call out ambulances for non-emergency stuff, which is obviously a problem. Should we start charging people for that like the blasted wasteland of healthcare that is the US?
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Feb 1, 2016 22:20
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Seaside Loafer posted:Ive had these 3 small strange slightly squdigy lumps on my right leg for 20 years now, unoticable unless you look closely or are in possesion of my body.. i remember being slightly freaked out by them at the time because they seemed to appear almost overnight. still wonder what those loving things are, maybe they are about to hatch, only a powerfull organism would require a 20 year gestation period Or, possibly, this thing.  
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Feb 1, 2016 22:23
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baka kaba posted:No it doesn't, you can try to educate people (and that should be happening, especially about antibiotics) but at the end of the day it's more important to make the system free and accessible to everyone. It's better to treat people who don't need it than to turn away people who do. And a fee isn't necessarily going to deter the right people anyway "free and accessible" doesn't mean without rules and some sense of order. unless you can magic up GPs (which is quite hard, likely impossible, to do even with money since there's just not enough trained). if you dont want the frankly minimal guidelines of "don't waste GP time on minor ailments but if it's really urgent than go ahead" then what else are you going to do?
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Feb 1, 2016 22:24
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Rules are overrated  thespaceinvader posted:We both need to educate the population more so that they don't demand non-functional medicines which are actively harmful to public health (and this includes both unnecessary antibiotics and snake oil bullshit like homeopathy) from their doctors when all they need is rest and fluids This is markedly different than people taking up GP time, which was the original argument. You can educate on what people should expect from doctors, but there's no way to get people who it turns out didn't really need to see a doctor to not go see one, because how is anyone but a doctor supposed to figure that out?
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Feb 1, 2016 22:26
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hookerbot 5000 posted:This is making me feel even more conflicted about whether I should go to the doctor about the weird lump that appeared in my mouth. Go to the Doctor. Weird lumps are bad news brown.
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Feb 1, 2016 22:27
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Malcolm XML posted:"free and accessible" doesn't mean without rules and some sense of order. unless you can magic up GPs (which is quite hard, likely impossible, to do even with money since there's just not enough trained). if you dont want the frankly minimal guidelines of "don't waste GP time on minor ailments but if it's really urgent than go ahead" then what else are you going to do? "Don't waste GP time on minor ailments" isn't good advice because it relies on the patient to decide what is and isn't a minor ailment. Setting up alternative services for low-risk things (like sex clinics) would work better, as does things like getting pharmacists to dispense medicine advice rather than needing to call the doctor about it. As is stuff like telling people not to come in if they think they have a cold, but to come in if it persists, that sort of thing. You can do a lot better than just telling people that their doctor is in dire straits and if they come in and it turns out to be nothing they have literally killed a child.
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Feb 1, 2016 22:28
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hookerbot 5000 posted:This is making me feel even more conflicted about whether I should go to the doctor about the weird lump that appeared in my mouth. Go to the doctor. Just in case, like.
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Feb 1, 2016 22:30
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OwlFancier posted:"Don't waste GP time on minor ailments" isn't good advice because it relies on the patient to decide what is and isn't a minor ailment. which is exactly what has been done w/ pharmacists giving medical advice and 111 & friends. i was being glib. the point stands that in rationed care you need a way of streaming away the people who dont really need the care right now and part of that involves self-care.
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Feb 1, 2016 22:33
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