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Studio posted:Eh. Seeing the characters in dire straits is interesting, and the game focuses so much on character writing that it made me want to see how they'd handle bad situations. Also, Sans is like half a character until you do a Genocide run. I guess in this case it's whether you truly see the characters as 'real' people with actual 'lives' to be lived out after the game ends (as someone like LaurenTheFlute might, as she expressed in her post-epilogue reasoning for not wanting to do the Genocide run) or you just see it as an ultimately fictional drama with characters acting out their scripted parts, in which case it shouldn't really matter for you to be judged for killing imaginary video game sprites. In other words: what matters more for you? Gaining LOVE or gaining love? Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 07:06
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Treating fictional characters as real is really pathetic.
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Feb 11, 2016 07:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Treating fictional characters as real is really pathetic. Not literally real. There's a reason why I put the words in quotation marks.
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Feb 11, 2016 07:19
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It's the same thing, congrats?
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Feb 11, 2016 07:27
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Treating fictional characters as real is really pathetic. that's the premise of the game tho
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Feb 11, 2016 07:29
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Treating fictional characters as real is really pathetic. Much like your posting.
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Feb 11, 2016 07:30
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Truly, the most pathetic thing in this world is when a person engages with fictional media to a deeper extent than 
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Feb 11, 2016 07:42
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I always saw the reset speech in Undertale as a way of saying that its cool to like something but don't get creepily obsessed with it because that's a good way to ruin it. Admittedly that's based on knowing that Toby was a prominent member of a fan community that obsessively dissected Earthbound for many years.
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Feb 11, 2016 07:52
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Internet Kraken posted:I always saw the reset speech in Undertale as a way of saying that its cool to like something but don't get creepily obsessed with it because that's a good way to ruin it. And, you know, is an old friend of Andrew Hussie and has done music for Homestuck. And was involved with the fans enough to make The Baby Is You. Dude knows exactly how insane fandoms can get.
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Feb 11, 2016 08:02
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distactedOne posted:Truly, the most pathetic thing in this world is when a person engages with fictional media to a deeper extent than Believing that characters are real on some astral plane isn't actually engaging deeper with fiction.
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Feb 11, 2016 08:06
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The treatment of the characters as 'real' people with actual 'lives' is something I've seen come up more than once when people discuss Undertale and it kind of unsettles me. You don't need to protect your save file after you complete the pacifist ending. You're not actually ruining anyone's happy ending (except, perhaps, your own) by playing through the game again, no matter how you play. If the characters or the story resonated with you, or if you think there's a moral, then try to apply that to your own life.
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Feb 11, 2016 08:09
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Your Computer posted:Much like your posting. 
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Feb 11, 2016 08:09
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Schwarzwald posted:The treatment of the characters as 'real' people with actual 'lives' is something I've seen come up more than once when people discuss Undertale and it kind of unsettles me. i don't think anyone here actually believes these fictional characters are real, but the basic premise of the narrative is "what if some element of realism were applied to these video game characters in this video game world"
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Feb 11, 2016 08:19
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Sometimes I worry that the true pacifist ending enables and encourages people who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality.
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Feb 11, 2016 08:22
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It's called playing pretend, and there's absolutely nothing shameful about adults doing it
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Feb 11, 2016 08:30
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Dare you imply that a subject can apply the metaphorical lessons of a fictional work to their own life, while still being engaged with it on some level and perceiving empathy for the fictional characters and their situations within? Perhaps even, using the feeling of that engagement to further enforce their belief in applying said lessons to their life and bettering themselves? All while being a functional human being and member of society?! My dear sir or madame, you have gone too far!
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Feb 11, 2016 08:47
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sometimes this thread is bad
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Feb 11, 2016 09:39
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Moartoast posted:Dare you imply that a subject can apply the metaphorical lessons of a fictional work to their own life Undertale doesn't really teach any good metaphorical lessons, even the correct one is thematically muddled.
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Feb 11, 2016 09:43
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Undertale doesn't really teach any good metaphorical lessons, even the correct one is thematically muddled. The true lesson is that hitball is over. You should change your avatar to let go of your own fantasies.
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Feb 11, 2016 09:46
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like worse than the giantbomb thread, which is a hard one to beat
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Feb 11, 2016 09:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Undertale doesn't really teach any good metaphorical lessons, even the correct one is thematically muddled. We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I thought the emphasis on the idea that no actions occur in a vacuum was very well executed.
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Feb 11, 2016 09:51
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Roobanguy posted:like worse than the giantbomb thread, which is a hard one to beat be the change you want to see in the forums
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Feb 11, 2016 10:54
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ZiegeDame posted:Sometimes I worry that the true pacifist ending enables and encourages people who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality. I'm much more worried about those people playing games where you kill people. Or watching Fox news...
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Feb 11, 2016 11:06
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GeneX posted:
you can sell your soul in a vacuum so
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Feb 11, 2016 11:06
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:I guess in this case it's whether you truly see the characters as 'real' people with actual 'lives' to be lived out after the game ends (as someone like LaurenTheFlute might, as she expressed in her post-epilogue reasoning for not wanting to do the Genocide run) or you just see it as an ultimately fictional drama with characters acting out their scripted parts, in which case it shouldn't really matter for you to be judged for killing imaginary video game sprites. So, the premise is that if you treat fiction like fiction, you can't have empathy for the characters. That's not really true, and most good fiction has an emotional connection with the reader/watcher/player. Not watching or reading a story that treats characters poorly isn't supporting them, and reading those stories isn't betrayal. The interactions between Pacifist and Genocide are some minimal fluff, to the point where they're really entirely different stories. Stories that will exist with or without your interaction. I could understand not wanting to do a Genocide run because it feels bad, but that's not the same as saying "the game doesn't want you to play through it again." The best encounters are in that route anyways. Also that "In other words" is really bad.
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Feb 11, 2016 11:20
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Jesus christ, "real" is used as shorthand for "was written with significant drives and motivations, often conflicting, such that a human will model their prediction of what the character will do next the same way they will model another person" and has been forever, because typing all that out is a pain in the rear end. No one thinks that you can literally hop in your space car or whatever and go visit them, but the characters are written convincingly enough that you can in some sense believe that they could go on to have lives outside the work. This doesn't mean you can't tell the character is fictional!
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Feb 11, 2016 11:22
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The matter of agency in games is actually kinda odd if you think about it. I think the main point is that people have a number of ways they act in games. They can go about it in terms of 'if I was in this situation, what would I do? Or what would I hope that I would do?' Or they could experiment, try and find how the game-world works, trying to create interesting situations to see what the outcomes are. Or they could try to inhabit the role of a character, like an actor in a play.
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Feb 11, 2016 11:35
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I don't think that there are many people that literally believe that resetting and doing a new run of Undertale robs real people of their new and better livelihood and their freedom. What I think is that when playing Undertale, as it happens with most good fiction as someone else rightly pointed out, you buy into the narrative and get into the mindset that these character are "real", so you don't feel like destroying their livelihood.
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Feb 11, 2016 11:42
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Fangz posted:The matter of agency in games is actually kinda odd if you think about it. I think the main point is that people have a number of ways they act in games. They can go about it in terms of 'if I was in this situation, what would I do? Or what would I hope that I would do?' Or they could experiment, try and find how the game-world works, trying to create interesting situations to see what the outcomes are. Or they could try to inhabit the role of a character, like an actor in a play. Story is probably the hardest concept to give player's control over. You can do a ton with gameplay, look, design, etc, but the narrative is a whole different beast. A writer is essentially planning out your actions, and giving you what feels like an appropriate response responses. Even in a game like Undertale, most of the neat tidbits are in the confines of expected actions. I feel like games with much more ambigious plots can give the player more control, but that's really hard to do, and not at all what Undertale sets out to do. The plot is there, the responses are there, you can choose which pre-made response you want, but the control is still entirely in the developer's hands. Ironically I think competitive multiplayer games have the most player-controlled narratives, but they're totally meta and not really applicable outside of multiplayer games  .
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Feb 11, 2016 11:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Believing that characters are real on some astral plane isn't actually engaging deeper with fiction. OK, let me spell it out in terms that might help you: The game is strong enough on its own merits that a player might be willing to humor it and not do another replay, feeling satisfied and complete with the content they've played through. A lesser game would not be able to pull off this kind of risk and the request would fall flat as laughable or melodramatic otherwise. Better? E: No one playing the game is going to literally take the characters as real, astral or otherwise, save for a very few Chris-chan Sonichu types who are extremely far and few between. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 12:28
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:the correct one
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Feb 11, 2016 13:11
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If Lamps riles you up don't respond to him, this is poo poo you should have learned in preschool guys. If you find Lamps entertaining, then indulge him. ^ Also I'm 90% sure Lamps knows exactly what you're talking about but is being deliberately obtuse/pedantic to get a rise out of you.
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Feb 11, 2016 13:11
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Panic Attack posted:If Lamps riles you up don't respond to him, this is poo poo you should have learned in preschool guys. I'm taking him on good faith argument even though there's every reason for that not to be the case. It's better than everyone devolving into Internet slap fights, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread.
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Feb 11, 2016 13:18
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 this isn't really relevant and i have no idea as to the context but i can't not post it
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Feb 11, 2016 13:28
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6NLMSUtQzg this is cute
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Feb 11, 2016 13:34
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Eh, Lamps is SMG-lite, frankly. Edit: THEY are good at critique of fiction.
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Feb 11, 2016 13:37
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It's nice but I kinda wish it didn't fade characters out when they aren't playing.
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Feb 11, 2016 13:45
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Sorry guys, but considering how hard Toby Fox rides Earthbound, I wouldn't be surprised if that Ness thing actually was intentional. Game Theory is still bad and Film Theory (their sister channel) is a loving heinous blight on film analysis. Pro Tip: does your edgy fan theory negate the emotional impact of a scene, or the moral of the entire work? Yes? Then it's loving bullshit you moron Calico Heart fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 13:51
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I was actually expecting him to say Sans was Apple Kis, not Ness. Sans does seem to be a science guy of some sort, while Ness more or less just ran with the plans he was given.
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Feb 11, 2016 14:06
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guys I have a crazy theory what if gaster was actually dr. andronauts???
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Feb 11, 2016 14:07
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