|
The PKK is a good organization and the Ottoman Empire is not.
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 10:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 09:04 |
|
|
I Love Annie May posted:Staged interviews with turkish actors, perhaps. Dial it back just a notch, then say it with a folksy tone of voice followed by a good humored but slightly weary chuckle. Make sure to wink at the camera too. Everyone knows, and nobody that isn't Turkish cares.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 10:59
|
|
|
Panzeh posted:The PKK is a good organization and the Ottoman Empire is not.  The recent conflict between Turkey and the PKK started because Turkey was willfully ignoring ISIS both along and inside its borders. ISIS fighters were free to cross the border as ISIS attacked Kobane, while Kurds were forbidden from doing so, and the Erdogan regime killed dozens of Kurds in the resulting protests. Later, ISIS just coincidentally happened to attack an HDP rally after the HDP denied Erdogan his parliamentary majority in the first round of elections. Erdogan chose to support ISIS, and Erdogan chose to escalate the situation by waging war on Kurdish cities in the aftermath. Then once the Kurds started pushing ISIS around in Syria (and ISIS attacked Turks that the government actually considered people one too many times), Turkey decided to invade its neighbor in a heroic battle against terrorism. gently caress Turkey.Some people are still incapable of acknowledging how loving evil the Saudi-US war on the Yemeni people is, so it's no surprise that people are still making excuses for Erdogan's war on the Kurdish people. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Oct 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 13:02
|
|
|
SA_Avenger posted:Seems confirmed (reports were of 1 SyAf barrel bombing and 1 RuAf plane) Using a barrel bomb for battlefield support? I think people are just calling anything that drops from a helicopter a barrel bomb at this point.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 13:14
|
|
|
Some types of barrel bomb: laser guided air to ground barrel bomb cruise barrel bomb intercontinental ballistic barrel bomb (ICBBB) armed with multiple independently targetable reentry barrel bombs (MIRBBs)
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 13:33
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:
This completely isolates recent events from the history of the conflict, the troubled peace negotiations, the protests over outpost construction and increased PKK mobilisation before Kobane and militarisation of the southeast, the lacklustre reform package and the general water treading by the government. Kobane coupled with Suruc and the killing of the police officers was the trigger but a collapse was telegraphed some time before
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 13:42
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:It is very clearly a T-72 if you focus on the area around the barrel after the camera zooms in. A T-72 Ural/A has a more rounded turret, and as the turret moves it become clear as the light reflects off it isn't the triangular shape of a T-90. Sorry, I just don't think your right, and it isn't angled in the way you suggest. I will grant you the first video may be at least a mission kill for a T-90, but the second one...no. You are free to dispute the grainy silhouette. The rest of your post is nonsense. Stop talking about titanium bulging plates. Those are a (theoretical) upgrade to the composite armor inserts placed in large cavities between the welded steel RHA plates on the front of the turret and hull. They have nothing to do with rear and little to do with side protection. You instead need to talk about an upgrade to protection of the 60-80mm thick rear quadrant of the turret or the even-more-relevant-to-this-video 10-20mm thick rear hull. These are things relevant to discussing because (unlike the composite armor on the front of the tank) they actually apply to a discussion about the tank getting hit in the rear end. Also note that these are measures of armor thickness - not an estimate of its KE protection. The KE protection will, of course, be nearly identical to that value because it's just a single, solid, welded steel RHA plate. You could start by sourcing your 400mm HEAT protection claim for starters, because that's bonkers. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Oct 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 14:59
|
|
|
Panzeh posted:The PKK is a good organization and the Ottoman Empire is not. I started to think that PKK mite have a point when I read about what Turkish police/army does to suspected female PKK members, they behave worse than ISIS
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 14:58
|
|
|
Iraqi Prime Minister Abadi did a funny: https://twitter.com/HamzehKarkhi/status/791145701069783040 quote:Saying Mosul & Kirkuk belong to Turkey. Does recounting this (Ottoman) history contribute to anything?" News, Raqqa is apparently planned to happen sooner rather than later: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-uncovered/raqqa-offensive-against-isis-begin-within-weeks-ash-carter-n672996?cid=eml_nbn_20161026 quote:The offensive to oust ISIS from its capital will get underway within weeks, Defense Secretary Ash Carter told NBC News in an exclusive interview Wednesday.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 16:16
|
|
|
Friendly Humour posted:Doesn't Turkey still have flamethrowers in its inventory? Technically the United States, Russia, China, India, and Syria do too in the form of rocket launchers with incendiary warheads. Of course there's also white phosphorous munitions, which have likely replaced the function of flamethrowers.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 17:19
|
|
|
Warbadger posted:Stop talking about titanium bulging plates. Those are a (theoretical) upgrade to the composite armor inserts placed in large cavities between the welded steel RHA plates on the front of the turret and hull. They have nothing to do with rear and little to do with side protection. http://files.balancer.ru/16d779f05271bda37972dfed80fd0124/forums/attaches/2a/f2/Armor_Basics.pdf This is the closet I found that gives actual data, he gives different values for KE and HEAT. He maybe he is wrong, maybe you could provide a link to your own data? Otherwise, I am not really interested at this point because it is just going to be bickering over speculation. I need an independent analysis to accept your assertion and I would think there would be one somewhere. fade5 posted:News, Raqqa is apparently planned to happen sooner rather than later: To be honest, I would think the SDF would be a lot more worried about Turkey at this point. If anything they should be building up reserves to help out their forces moving from Afrin. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Oct 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 17:26
|
|
|
A colleague of mine in ME Politics Class today pondered whether or not Syria and other ME nations could pull a 1950s German miracle after war's end. I considered his optimism myopic. How can we prove him wrong?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 17:26
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:A colleague of mine in ME Politics Class today pondered whether or not Syria and other ME nations could pull a 1950s German miracle after war's end. I considered his optimism myopic. How can we prove him wrong? There will be no Marshall Plan for the Mideast at the end of this, for one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 17:33
|
|
|
3peat posted:I started to think that PKK mite have a point when I read about what Turkish police/army does to suspected female PKK members, they behave worse than ISIS how so?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 17:39
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:A colleague of mine in ME Politics Class today pondered whether or not Syria and other ME nations could pull a 1950s German miracle after war's end. I considered his optimism myopic. How can we prove him wrong? Yeah, the German "miracle" not only required US aid but the fact that Western Germany until 1945 was one of the most some of the most competitive industrial areas of the world and globalization hadn't hit with full force yet. Germany factories were bombed out but the people with skills were there as well as the technology, then just needed seed money to get lines up and running again (at least in West Germany). A country like Syria wasn't competitive before the war and is going to be even less competitive afterwards, and Syrian workers would have to compete for wages in developing countries that weren't destroyed and probably can still pay their workers less. If anything the Middle East in general is rather screwed since it contains a number of middle income countries that can't compete with low end manufacturing from Asia and can't compete with high end manufacturing from Europe. Turkey made a decent attempt at breaking out of that vice but even so there are some pretty fundamental issues with the Turkish economy. Otherwise, the rest of the countries in the region just live off oil.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 17:40
|
|
|
No one is going to Marshall Plan Syria. Germany was also in a better position administratively in 1945 than Syria has been in a decade.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 17:41
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:A colleague of mine in ME Politics Class today pondered whether or not Syria and other ME nations could pull a 1950s German miracle after war's end. I considered his optimism myopic. How can we prove him wrong? Economic miracles require functional governments. Call back when you find one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 17:51
|
|
|
The Germans also accepted an occupying army peacefully, because of the Soviet threat. I don't think the Syrians would.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 17:54
|
|
|
Rojava might-ish. The usual middle East problem is the "then what" issue. If you ask Kurds that question, they won't shut up about their plans. Germany and Japan did well because they actually put in effort. Kurds seem like the only demographic in the region that actually wants a country most days.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 18:26
|
|
|
Maybe this would work but the ME is working as intended currently so nah
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
Germany (or the plural germanies) was a functional, unified society, even if bombed out and burying a lot of dead. Recovering from losing a war to foreign powers and recovering from a civil war are entirely different things. I'm not sure there is a positive model for recovering from a civil war. Also there's still no end in sight to this war.
Best Friends fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Oct 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 18:38
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:http://files.balancer.ru/16d779f05271bda37972dfed80fd0124/forums/attaches/2a/f2/Armor_Basics.pdf Your link does not say what you are saying. At all. It shows that rear turret protection of the oldest model examined (T-72A with 80-90mm KE and 140-210mm HEAT) is comparable to the newest model examined (T-72B w/K-5 at 110-140mm KE and 180-270mm HEAT). The rear hull protection for every single T-72 variant is listed at 60mm KE and 300-400mm HEAT (and oddly uses the same estimate for the T-64/80 family of vehicles...). Meanwhile it does not examine the T-90 with the welded turret - which according to its patent application and accompanying schematics is sporting 60-80mm solid plates in the rear. Not layered plates, not a sandwich of plates with space for an insert, just solid plates. It also does not explain how he calculates the protection values given. In this case why he estimates the turret rear for every single T-72/64/80 to be substantially greater than its thickness. This is odd given that thanks to the myriad of destroyed and disassembled vehicles we know this area (along with the sides) of the turret was simply homogeneous cast steel (see: weaker than RHA according to this author's evaluation) with no composite armor, laminate armor, etc. components embedded in it to improve protection. It's also not sure hat hard to come across accurate measurements of thickness. How do these sections of solid cast steel outperform the same thickness of supposedly stronger Rolled Homogeneous Armor? Is he counting the storage bins as spaced armor? Maybe the slight angle of the surface? We don't know because he doesn't say. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Oct 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:A colleague of mine in ME Politics Class today pondered whether or not Syria and other ME nations could pull a 1950s German miracle after war's end. I considered his optimism myopic. How can we prove him wrong? Adding to the arguments others have made, Germany was also not fighting a loving civil war against itself. Sure, there were a lot of atrocities and some guys tried to bomb Hitler, but overall there was no large-scale German-on-German warfare. The Syrian Civil War on the other hand will leave deep wounds and when it is finally over, it will either take generations of more fighting/slow healing (if Assad loses) or it will later called the first Syrian Civil War when the same problems lead to another uprising a generation later (if Assad wins). In all cases, Syria is ruined and would indeed need a full-on Marshal Plan to get up on its feet in less then a decade. It won't get one though and even with extra help, it will just make Syria less hosed up, not transform it into the economic Wunderkind of the Middle East.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 18:56
|
|
|
Cyclomatic posted:Rojava might-ish. The usual middle East problem is the "then what" issue. If you ask Kurds that question, they won't shut up about their plans. Germany and Japan did well because they actually put in effort. Kurds seem like the only demographic in the region that actually wants a country most days. Holy poo poo the level of irrational supremacist thought for the Kurds is unbelievable. I mean, do you even read anything that's happened in the last five years or read about the multitude of different ways the Middle East got hosed in the last 50 years that prevented any kind of economic or political miracles from happening or read any books or pay attention or is all your knlowledge based on ethnic nationalist propaganda?! It's really flabbergasting how many people have no conception of the Middle East at all or understanding beyond what some YPG fan tells them. No all those people who died in the last five years getting shot in the streets or died in dungeons or gassed or were killed and dissappeared and cast to the four corners of the earth due to fascists they can't depose due to Cold War patronage and support and outright imposition are lazy savage bums incapable of pulling their bootstraps compared to glorious socialist pure people like the YPG who are busy protecting Assads efforts to annihalate a city of hundreds of thousands of people and kill everyone in it. Hey here's some news for you:- an middle eastern ethnic nationalist militia who did not stop a mass murderer from rounding up people to kill under their watch, who are now AIDING him and PREVENTING the rescue of hundreds of thousands are not people you should blindingly support for no reason or assume they're wunderkinds compared to others. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Oct 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:18
|
|
|
Al-Saqr posted:Holy poo poo the level of irrational supremacist thought for the Kurds is unbelievable. I mean, do you even read anything that's happened in the last five years or read about the multitude of different ways the Middle East got hosed in the last 50 years that prevented any kind of economic or political miracles from happening or read any books or pay attention or is all your knlowledge based on ethnic nationalist propaganda?! It's not really fair to ask others to fight your battles.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:26
|
|
|
Al-Saqr posted:Assads efforts to annihalate a city of hundreds of thousands of people and kill everyone in it. Assad's an evil guy but that's really stupid; he isn't trying to kill every single person in Aleppo, or even in east Aleppo. It would be like me saying your awful country is trying to kill every person in Yemen. In both cases the killers are indifferent at best to civilian life, but pretending they intend to wipe out every human life as their end goal is absurd.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:33
|
|
|
It's kind of funny how easy it was to convince western liberals to support arming a sectarian ethnic-nationalist separatist movement with a history of terrorism and human rights abuses in a middle eastern war zone. Not to mention a significant bombing campaign on their behalf that has killed over a thousand civilians in the name of a strategy that has almost no positive long term implications for the humanitarian crisis in the country. Even funnier that they continue to see themselves as opponents of US foreign policy while they do so. "This time will be different" indeed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:35
|
|
|
Friendly Humour posted:It's not really fair to ask others to fight your battles. I'm asking for a little objectivity when you make claims like the YPG are some clever super economic miracle people who have ideas and are hard working bootstrappers while everyone else around them are lazy savages. Also I find that statement funny considering that the YPG SDF actively need and call on the support of navy seals, American bombers, and now the loving Russian and Syrian Air Force are helping them prevent lifting the siege on Aleppo. Wow so bootstrapping and hardworking and clever moral group you guys. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Oct 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:36
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:It's kind of funny how easy it was to convince western liberals to support arming a sectarian ethnic-nationalist separatist movement with a history of terrorism and human rights abuses in a middle eastern war zone. "This time will be different" indeed. Says the guy who wants the US to shoot down Russian planes so Al Qaeda can take over Syria.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:37
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Says the guy who wants the US to shoot down Russian planes so Al Qaeda can take over Syria. I wouldn't have expected anything other than your same tired strawmen as a rebuttal, Sinteres.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:41
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:I wouldn't have expected anything other than your same tired strawmen as a rebuttal, Sinteres. You never miss an opportunity to call the YPG a bunch of terrorists while ignoring the reality that the Syrian opposition (with the possible exception of some Turkish puppets who also hate the US) have inextricably tied themselves to Nusra. Oh, but I guess Nusra said they aren't interested in carrying out attacks on the West anymore, which is totally believable, so that's fine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:47
|
|
|
Al-Saqr posted:Also I find that statement funny considering that the YPG SDF actively need and call on the support of navy seals, American bombers, and now the loving Russian and Syrian Air Force are helping them prevent lifting the siege on Aleppo. Wait, what outside force is trying to lift the siege on Aleppo? Are we talking about Turkey?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:54
|
|
|
Vietnom nom nom posted:Wait, what outside force is trying to lift the siege on Aleppo? Are we talking about Turkey? Some of the Turkish backed rebels have announced their intention to go to Aleppo after they capture Al Bab, so every action Turkey takes against the YPG is now justified by pretending Turkey's war aims are all in the service of lifting the siege even though they could have just done so from the west the whole time if they were willing to risk a confrontation with Russia. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Oct 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:55
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Says the guy who wants the US to shoot down Russian planes so Al Qaeda can take over Syria. Is that any worse considering Russia has been bombing Hospitals and Schools, they bombed the enterance to an elementary school today while the kids where leaving school. So thats a nice strawman. Assad will rule over ashes and corpses.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 19:58
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:It's kind of funny how easy it was to convince western liberals to support arming a sectarian ethnic-nationalist separatist movement with a history of terrorism and human rights abuses in a middle eastern war zone. Not to mention a significant bombing campaign on their behalf that has killed over a thousand civilians in the name of a strategy that has almost no positive long term implications for the humanitarian crisis in the country. Even funnier that they continue to see themselves as opponents of US foreign policy while they do so. "This time will be different" indeed. well, the point is that they were the movement with the least history of terrorism and human rights abuses in Syria, everyone else is like genocide Bad (SAA, ISIS, FSA) Its not funny, but very easy to see Turkey could proberly have stepped in years ago, saved the whole country with US backing, but NOPE, more fun to fund ISIS with arms and personell
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 20:00
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Is that any worse considering Russia has been bombing Hospitals and Schools, they bombed the enterance to an elementary school today while the kids where leaving school. Disagreement about which is worse doesn't make it a strawman, especially when he keeps talking about how arming the YPG is horrible because they're a bunch of PKK terrorists. Again though, it's interesting how all the people crying out for a showdown with Russia to save Arab lives don't seem to give much of a poo poo about the Arab lives in Yemen as the US helps Saudi Arabia engage in many of the same behaviors Russia has displayed in Syria.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 20:00
|
|
|
The RuAF (or, less likely, the SyAAF) launched 7 strikes on a complex of 3 schools in Idlib around 10:30 AM local time today. 26 so far have been killed, 20 of them children.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 20:02
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Disagreement about which is worse doesn't make it a strawman. Again though, it's interesting how all the people crying out for a showdown with Russia to save Arab lives don't seem to give much of a poo poo about the Arab lives in Yemen as the US helps Saudi Arabia engage in many of the same behaviors Russia has displayed in Syria. How many airstrikes has the US carried out in Yemen directly against Hospitals and Schools. I'm not excusing our reprehensible support for the House of Saud. But direct versus indirect action is a huge difference.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 20:03
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:How many airstrikes has the US carried out in Yemen directly against Hospitals and Schools. I'm not saying the US is as bad as Russia at all. I'm saying we should focus on not assisting in crimes against humanity before we decide to go to war with Russia to try to prevent theirs. Not just because it's hypocritical as poo poo, but because it's a hell of a lot easier and safer to stop doing something than to go to war to stop someone else from doing it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 20:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 09:04 |
|
|
Sinteres posted:You never miss an opportunity to call the YPG a bunch of terrorists while ignoring the reality that the Syrian opposition (with the possible exception of some Turkish puppets who also hate the US) have inextricably tied themselves to Nusra. Oh, but I guess Nusra said they aren't interested in carrying out attacks on the West anymore, which is totally believable, so that's fine. You have never said a word about Syrian democratic activists, progressives, and yes, leftists, who were Arab. People who are still prominent in the discussion for anyone that doesn't deliberately wish to marginalize them even further than they already have been. Academics and refugees put out speeches and articles, and hold conferences to raise funds for non military aid and lobby for a democratic, free Syria for everyone. They put their lives at risk daily to undermine the jihadist groups and the fascist regime to this day. But these people are not worth discussing, unlike the glorious Kurds. When those people come up, it's time to talk about al Qaeda. Why is that Sinteres? It would appear to me that it is a conspiratorial view of the US that says the US can do nothing positive in the middle east. That everything they attempt in the region, and the world in general, is rooted in imperialist desires. Behind every humanitarian intervention is a "regime change." Every military engagement they attempt is a colossal failure that brings nothing but sorrow and destruction to the poor souls with the misfortune to be next on the schedule to greet us as liberators. You feel obligated to discredit the Syrian opposition as fully as you can in order to undermine any talking points that may be used later to justify a regime change disaster, in accordance with this view. A view that goes out the loving window the second the ethnicity of the victims changes to one you seem to be strangely predisposed to be more sympathetic too. It's all really fascinating. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Oct 26, 2016 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2016 20:08
|
|