Clocks posted:

How the gently caress is love his motivation if he is literally scalping Dolores? Whatever he did we are at least meant to think it was terrible because she uses that flashback as strength to pull the trigger on the bandit. (And we see him about to scalp Maeve, nevermind the other "atrocities" he's committed.)

That's one thing I don't get about MiB = William, what they're shown doing just doesn't match up.

Paperback Writer posted:

so what is your guys' explanation of why Dolores is hearing the voices and acting strangely with William when it showed she first starting showing these signs in the "present timeline"

KoRMaK posted:

Like what?

Junkfist posted:

lol if he's on the Board of Directors and the majority shareholder he could walk into the labs and stick his dick in the milk vats screaming "Dolores I love you" what are they gonna do?

Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:

I think that most people would say that she had previously heard voices but that the new update allowed her to hear them again after 30 years.

Junkfist posted:

lol if he's on the Board of Directors and the majority shareholder he could walk into the labs and stick his dick in the milk vats screaming "Dolores I love you" what are they gonna do?

Leon Einstein posted:

And I never mentioned any other motivation, so I'm not sure why you're framing it as an either or question.

Clocks posted:

How the gently caress is love his motivation if he is literally scalping Dolores? Whatever he did we are at least meant to think it was terrible because she uses that flashback as strength to pull the trigger on the bandit. (And we see him about to scalp Maeve, nevermind the other "atrocities" he's committed.)

Catsplosion posted:

If that was the case management et al would just do whatever the gently caress they wanted irregardless of Ford. They don't.

Also Ford was the one who called Arnold's coding beneath all of his updates a walled garden. It seems to quite heavily imply that even Ford doesn't know how to access it. So they cant just roll the host back to the secrets which the MiB wants to find.

Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:

Seeing her leave the farmhouse in the present time after shooting Rebus (interesting name), showing up at Williams camp (30 years in the past?), seeing QA recall her because she has gone off her track (present), and seeing being grabbed by the officer to try and take her back (30 years in the past?) while saying that her father died (something we would have not have seen in a 30 year ago timeframe).

This sequence seems to flow together best if this was all in the present and to have it all be in the past would mean that the editing (and not creative writing) were the cause for everyone thinking that she is in the present the entire time. A lot of people have said that would cheapen the show for them.

Junkfist posted:

If he wanted access to poo poo MiB could just go after it in a way that doesn't have him playing a Dolores-Torturing Murderman for 30 years but he loves it for some reason that'll probably make no sense if he's William and it looks like he will be so lol.

Catsplosion posted:

The show has shown you that is clearly not the case. It has stated multiple times that there are secrets that even those still making and updating the hosts don't fully know about or understand.

How can you not think the split timelines are happening though? They have shown us two different logos. Go and rewatch episode two and look at the logos, decor, etc of the scenes involving William entering the park. Compare that to scenes in what people are calling the present. The creators of the show didn't make a completely different logo and use it for no reason.

Junkfist posted:

Whoosh x 2

Elias_Maluco posted:

- in the second episode, the attendant says to William, when he askes her if she is real: "if you cant tell the difference, what does it matter". That's how I feel about the whole thing: the robots are indistinguishable from human beings, so what's does it matters if they are technically machines or not, in whatever you do to then? The only real difference is that what you do to the robots have no real consequences, which dont make you less of a monster if you decide to butcher, rape or torture then

Nickelsack posted:

Question...

Who was intent on hanging Lawrence before MiB showed up?

Astroman posted:

I think I figured it out, and this is part of it.

Logan and William are split up. Logan is captured by the Confederados, but ends up working with them, and heads to The War part of the game. William and Dolores continue on, and eventually goes off on her own to find The Maze where she becomes somewhat self aware. William hooks up with the Union and ends up in The War on opposite sides with Logan. William gets so pissed at Logan taunting him that they fight and he tries to kill Logan. Logan gets the upper hand, and is about to kill William, when self aware Dolores comes and saves him by killing Logan.

The action stops, the park attendants come out and pull all the hosts. They wipe Dolores. They know that this will cause the destruction of the park if it gets out that the hosts have become self aware and killed a guest. William goes on to marry Logan's sister and take over their company, and uses his juice to become part of the board and saves the park by buying it. We probably find out at some point that his company is actually called "Delos". He returns to find Dolores wiped and not remembering him. Ford adds the Teddy quest, which mimics William and Dolores, but she is killed almost every day and reset no matter what as is Teddy. William becomes obsessed with trying to jog Dolores' memories and returns once a year for 30 years trying to bring her back and/or find The Maze. He becomes the Man In Black. He is the "representative of The Board" that Ford says is already in the park.

Junkfist posted:

If the Split Timespheres are happening...how the gently caress am I supposed to then loving bother trying to track character arc from scene-to-scene??? I see Ford instill doubt in Bernard in the present to see him have doubts in the past??? Is that not the past? Is the next scene where he tells Dolores about the maze the super-DUPER-past? If all of these scenes are non-chronological than I can't even track a character's growth or motivations or what's compelling them from one vague-dialogue delivering moment to the next.

Catsplosion posted:

Ditto

Only time will tell. This should be interesting.

Zaphod42 posted:

How does it not?

Do you think everybody who plays videogames is a murderer???

Zaphod42 posted:

Except that the accident that happened in the park was Arnold dying

KoRMaK posted:

I read that as Arnold dieing and logan dieing as two diff things.

Junkfist posted:

That line bugged me.

If you're selling the experience you're not supposed to say "If you can't tell the difference, does it matter?"

You're supposed to say something along the lines of "Everything you do to Hosts is actually fine because they're NOT REAL and I'M NOT REAL please don't ever think it's the same please don't have any sort of guilt-driven existential crisis PLEASE keep coming back and spending all of your money here."

Zaphod42 posted:

That's the very argument Sizemore makes in episode 1, and the head of QA responds that serving the rich hosts' fantasies is NOT the endgame of Westworld.

My theory is they're actually trying to build duncan-gholas, Dune style. Ressurect dead people as hosts. Like Ford said, master dead, bring forth Lazarus from his cave. Bernard is trying to bring back his dead son. And the site mentions that you have to sign off and let Delos collect all your blood and tissue samples and stuff, anything you leave in the park is theirs.

KoRMaK posted:

False, no timeline. The story doesn't exist.

Zaphod42 posted:

Do you think everybody who plays videogames is a murderer???

Junkfist posted:

If you're selling the experience you're not supposed to say "If you can't tell the difference, does it matter?"

Elias_Maluco posted:

Westworld is a whole different case, a lot more problematic. They look humen, they talk and even think like humans, and they suffering is just like a human suffering, and you can do whatever you want to then, no limits. If you killa child in front of her mother, she weill scream and cry in a very real despair, if you rape her she will be horrified and will suffer like she was real, in a way you cant tell she is a just a robot. And like MiB says, they are even more real when they suffer

Junkfist posted:

I dunno I always figured they were selling organs or doing some silly The Island poo poo and I always wondered how that Delos thing about their owning your DNA and cum and poop was going to figure into it so you might be right.

Elias_Maluco posted:

Nope, because they are just graphics and a bunch of data and logic. You can tell the difference. You can murder hundreds of people in GTA and even beat then to "death" you know they wont suffer, they wont feel it in any way, they wont be mourned, they dont want to live, they dont anything. And even in a game like that you cant actually rape or torture, there are limits

Westworld is a whole different case, a lot more problematic. They look humen, they talk and even think like humans, and they suffering is just like a human suffering, and you can do whatever you want to then, no limits. If you killa child in front of her mother, she weill scream and cry in a very real despair, if you rape her she will be horrified and will suffer like she was real, in a way you cant tell she is a just a robot. And like MiB says, they are even more real when they suffer

Zaphod42 posted:

Another third option is they're growing manchurian candidate robot replacements. Assassinate a world figure, replace him with a perfect robot clone designed to appear exactly like the same person, only now they're under your control. Nobody knows anything happened and now you have control over the nuclear launch codes or whatever.

Zaphod42 posted:

Videogames are constantly getting more realistic. To somebody from the 70s, modern games would look incredibly realistic and seeing people shoot videogame characters while they begged for their lives would be extremely disturbing. And videogames are only getting more and more realistic.

So you're saying that right now its fine, but if videogames become too realistic then at some point it'd be immoral to kill the characters?

What makes it immoral isn't how realistic they appear, but if they experience pain. Dogs don't act exactly like humans, but causing suffering to dogs is still immoral. Meanwhile video game characters appear similar to humans, but killing them is fine since they only give the illusion of pain, they don't actually feel pain.

If you don't think there are videogames where people cry and appear to suffer when you hurt them, you're out of the loop. Such things exist.

MiB was saying they appear most real, not that he thinks suffering makes them into real people. (although that works both ways as suffering seems to have kicked off Dolores and Maeve's journies of self discovery, but I don't think MiB was actually trying to cause that)

Elias_Maluco posted:

But that's exactly it: their humanity and suffering are SO real its indistinguishable from the real thing. So what difference does it makes, is the question? Dont matter how realistic the latest GTA looks, it is still a videogame, you can tell all the time it is a videogame, there is no possible mistake that the person you are killing is just a scripted model on a screen, even if it "cries". And like you said, even that can be somewhat disturbing

Elias_Maluco posted:

Now Westworld takes it so much further it just cant not be disturbing and problematic. Let alone the fact there a reasonable clues that the robots are actually capable of really feeling stuff, not only acting like they do

quote:

Unknown Man: Last question, Dolores. What if I told you that you were wrong? That there are no chance encounters? That you and everyone you know were built to gratify the desires of the people who pay to visit your world?

Dolores: Daddy! Daddy! (Sobbing) Daddy! No!

Man: The people you call "the newcomers."

MiB: Hello again. Your daddy gave it up quickly. Think he's losing his touch.

Teddy: You'll be following right behind him, you son of a bitch.

MiB: Is that any way to treat an old friend? I've been coming here for 30 years, but you still don't remember me, do you? After all we've been through. They gave you a little more pluck, Dolores. Absolutely charming.

(sobbing)

Teddy: Take your hands off her.

MiB: Oh, Teddy. Any special tricks for us? They teach you to sit up, beg? How about I give you the first shot, hmm? After all, every dog has his day. Well, your mouth move fast enough. How about your gun?

Man: What if I told you that you can't hurt the newcomers? And that they can do anything they want to you?

MiB: I never understood why they paired some of you off. Seems cruel. (Gunshot) And then I realized winning doesn't mean anything unless someone else loses. Which means you're here to be the loser.

quote:

MiB: I didn't pay all this money 'cause I want it easy. I want you to fight.

Teddy: Don't you touch her! (gunshot) (hammer clicks) (gunshot) (gasps)

MiB: God drat, feels good to be back. (Screams) Let's celebrate.

quote:

MiB: The man I'd be asking died 35 years ago. Almost took this place with him. Almost, but not quite, thanks to me. Or maybe he left something behind. I wonder what I would find... if I open you up.

Paperback Writer posted:

so what is your guys' explanation of why Dolores is hearing the voices and acting strangely with William when it showed she first starting showing these signs in the "present timeline"

Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:

I think that most people would say that she had previously heard voices but that the new update allowed her to hear them again after 30 years.

Skizzzer posted:

MiB links Arnold's death to the critical failure of the park, and indicates that he saved it after this event. Two timeline theorists theorize that there's another incident, to come in Will's journey, and that Will saves the park after this second incident. This despite the fact that Will clearly doesn't know Arnold, and doesn't know about the critical failure. For there to be a second incident, to come in Will's journey - the park is clearly running with very little issues in Will's story. You theorists are saying that Arnold died, concurrently with the critical failure, the park kept running for 3-5 years, and then Will comes, experiences love with a robot, kills his brother-in-law, takes over a corporation, saves the park, then starts terrorizing his lover and friends for the next 30 years?*

Skizzzer posted:

A final note on the Man, Arnold, and Bernard. I can't watch the episodes at work and I can't screenshot for you. Pay attention to each of Dolores' conversations with Bernard. Note the clothes he wears versus the clothes when he's in scenes with others. Take note of when he's wearing something different than what he usually wears, and what he says to Dolores in those conversations.

Skizzzer posted:

Skizzzer posted:

MiB links Arnold's death to the critical failure of the park, and indicates that he saved it after this event. Two timeline theorists theorize that there's another incident, to come in Will's journey, and that Will saves the park after this second incident. This despite the fact that Will clearly doesn't know Arnold, and doesn't know about the critical failure. For there to be a second incident, to come in Will's journey - the park is clearly running with very little issues in Will's story. You theorists are saying that Arnold died, concurrently with the critical failure, the park kept running for 3-5 years, and then Will comes, experiences love with a robot, kills his brother-in-law, takes over a corporation, saves the park, then starts terrorizing his lover and friends for the next 30 years?*

tooterfish posted:

This is a good spot.

It's also worth noting that in episode 1, Bernard's opening dialogue with Dolores mirrors her dialogue with security guy later on in the episode exactly word for word.