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I still think Masterful Harvestry should let you uproot a plant, tame it, and wear it around in a big pot on your back so it can hassle your enemies  Plunk a Dreadroot or Yonderbrush in there for melee crowd control, or have your freakishly strong four-legged double-muscled gardener haul around one of those Red Death trees to beat the Christ out of anything that gets close.
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Jan 13, 2017 14:40
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hey this time I see where the historical site is on my map, let's go check it out   lmao
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Jan 13, 2017 14:58
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Whatever you do, don't submit this to PEGI
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Jan 13, 2017 15:29
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What level can a character be expected to reach by the end of the main quest?
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Jan 13, 2017 18:02
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:What level can a character be expected to reach by the end of the main quest? Tl;Dr: probably 20ish, maybe 21, assuming a direct focus on the quest line and not much deviation for side quests or survival-grinding. This hugely depends on how much side content/exploring/survival-grinding you do. For example Golgotha is relatively early in the quest line and has better rewards if done before level 12 or 18 (the latest you can get the scoped masterwork carbine as a reward). Finishing it before 12 is pretty hard for most players/at least for me, but that's also because I don't focus on rushing it and always make sure I have potential disease cures on hand first (but I do it before 18 regardless). After that I pretty much do whatever since to my knowledge (and I could be wrong) there are no more time based rewards. I finished the quest line at level 27 last game, but literally 2 full levels post 20 came from just donating books from historical sites I raided.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:21
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Hey did you guys ever consider a less traditional RPG skill mechanic and a more simulationist one? As in, you learn by doing instead of getting non-specific skill points at fixed level up intervals? Because I think that would solve most of the problems with the skill system, from certain starts being not very desirable (why bother with start that has skill X when I can just get skill X the moment I get any skill points with any other start too?), to intelligence upgrades being incredibly unappealing in the late-game. For example if every enemy type/skill combination had a "max amount you can learn from this" that was modified by int, getting smarter would let you get the same amount of extra skill-points even if you're very high level. Plus it'd naturally lead people to different areas as the availible skill learning of wherever they are gets used up.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:36
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DatonKallandor posted:As in, you learn by doing instead of getting non-specific skill points at fixed level up intervals? One of the hugest, most massive benefits of point-buy systems is that they limit your options for skill grinding to just gaining more levels, which generally means "playing the game". Whereas it's very easy to make a "learn by doing" system that encourages you to throw rocks at a wall for hours or other similar tedious actions. I'm not saying it can't be done well, but it's a lot easier to balance the point-buy system.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:49
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:One of the hugest, most massive benefits of point-buy systems is that they limit your options for skill grinding to just gaining more levels, which generally means "playing the game". Whereas it's very easy to make a "learn by doing" system that encourages you to throw rocks at a wall for hours or other similar tedious actions. I'm not saying it can't be done well, but it's a lot easier to balance the point-buy system. True, but that's why I'd just give every action/target combination a pool of xp/skill learning you can get from it: Say you're a long blade user, you just got the abililty to learn how to long blade (by paying a trainer to teach you the basics say, or maybe there's cross-over opportunities by getting good at related skills) and you fight a snapjaw. First couple snapjaws - big gains. Your tenth generic snapjaw isn't going to teach as much. Your twentieth might teach you almost nothing. At some point you just plain stop getting long blade skill from fighting snapjaws. That stops you from being able to grind, makes you search out new challenges - and if you modify the pool by intelligence, it means if you get smarter later in the game, you can come back and kill some snapjaws to learn new things you were too stupid to notice before. Just because Bethesda is really bad at learn-by-doing systems by letting people grind doesn't make the idea flawed though. Not that it wouldn't be a lot of work, but the skill system is probably the weakest part of the game, mechanically currently. If anything still needs a big overhaul it's that. Although I was mostly curious if it was ever considered, not necessarily wanting it implemented (though I wouldn't complain).
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Jan 13, 2017 18:57
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DatonKallandor posted:Just because Bethesda is really bad at learn-by-doing systems by letting people grind doesn't make the idea flawed though. It's not just Bethesda, though. Literally every "learn by doing" skill system I've ever seen has been subject to greater or lesser abuses. Even if you're limited in the amount of experience you can gain by fighting snapjaws, you're still incentivized to kill enough snapjaws to hit that cap, with each weapon type that you care about -- and then go kill dragonflies until you hit the cap for that species, etc. There's no downside, so why would you not do it? Beyond that it's boring of course, but we've learned time and again that if there's a boring but profitable thing to do in a game, gamers will do it, and complain about how boring it is as they do so. I think that learn by doing can only work as a concept in a very strictly resource-limited game where the decision to take time to practice a certain skill has meaningful tradeoffs in terms of other potentially profitable things you could be doing instead. Like, you choose to practice blades in this safe environment, rather than push forward to find more food/equipment/etc., because you've decided that right now practicing blades is the most important thing you could possibly be doing. But very few games are that constrained, even in the realm of roguelikes; usually the food/water/etc. clocks are not very strict (leaving plenty of "slack time" which can be spent on boring pursuits), or even completely subvertable.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:10
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It's not just Bethesda, though. Literally every "learn by doing" skill system I've ever seen has been subject to greater or lesser abuses. Even if you're limited in the amount of experience you can gain by fighting snapjaws, you're still incentivized to kill enough snapjaws to hit that cap, with each weapon type that you care about -- and then go kill dragonflies until you hit the cap for that species, etc. There's no downside, so why would you not do it? Beyond that it's boring of course, but we've learned time and again that if there's a boring but profitable thing to do in a game, gamers will do it, and complain about how boring it is as they do so. But the same is true for leveling with xp and getting generic skill points for it. You can grind levels the exact same way.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:01
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IronicDongz posted:if I drink cloning draught, it'll create a clone of me with no weapon, right? can I give it equipment? yes and yes.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:03
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DatonKallandor posted:But the same is true for leveling with xp and getting generic skill points for it. You can grind levels the exact same way. It has the key advantage of only having one system to have to balance though, instead of having to track and balance every possible way to train any skill.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:04
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Is there anywhere we can do feature requests? I have a request to make auto explore pick up trash if you have the skill to rifle through it, and to adjust for when walls are added or removed from the map >_>
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Jan 13, 2017 20:11
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The only advantage of the system you've proposed is retroactive intelligence gains, and that could easily be modeled by just giving the player the appropriate amount of SP when they increase their intelligence score late in the game. Also, the game already has a system where underleveled monsters gradually stop granting XP.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:13
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The only advantage of the system you've proposed is retroactive intelligence gains, and that could easily be modeled by just giving the player the appropriate amount of SP when they increase their intelligence score late in the game. Which already happens fyi (the SP gain when int goes up) Int upgrades late game are fine but generally speaking the limiting factor of few guaranteed attribute points is what makes picking int lackluster later on (I.e. you need to sort of plan to get 29 in any attribute for the highest tier skills so unless you're going for tinker-3 you aren't picking int anyway) Tempora Mutantur fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 20:15
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Whereas it's very easy to make a "learn by doing" system that encourages you to throw rocks at a wall for hours or other similar tedious actions. I'm not saying it can't be done well, but it's a lot easier to balance the point-buy system. I think balancing a 'learn by doing' system is a ton more work than improving the current game by rebalancing skills and adding content. For instance, my understanding is that Int builds have improved considerably through the addition of item modding (possibly also the addition of the stilt with its data disc shops). Tinker III would probably be more appealing if it was clear to players that it had more exclusive lategame content, but adding build-exclusive content is development work that a fraction of characters will ever see. It might help if the higher levels of Tinker offered increasingly more options for the free recipe (like 3/4/5 or even 3/6/9), so players can be more confident of getting a free recipe that they're happy with. I would need to play more focused tinker builds to offer better feedback than this. I think most of the current starts are reasonable in providing an earlygame niche, there are only a few that I would avoid outright: I'm not sure I would currently take Greybeard, Pilgrim, or Scholar (does anyone in the thread use these?) but the other 9 seem fine. I guess the first two are probably OK for esper builds even though pumping Ego seems more valuable than the marginal benefit of extra Willpower. Another question: is there any way ingame to figure out what tier of tinkering a data disk requires? While rolling characters to check out class starting equipment (most mutants start with jack and poo poo, , I found that world seed 6CBB6DF8 consistently generated a build error that fails to create Joppa, but when I restarted CoQ it was fine.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:27
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bazomatic posted:Which already happens fyi (the SP gain when int goes up) e: hold on, testing this Oh, hey, cool. I guess that's one more reason to start characters with only 14-16 INT if you aren't planning on going deep into multiple weapon trees. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 20:59
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A great benefit to not having a "learn by doing" system is that you can gain XP using skills that aren't trash and then put that XP into skills which are, but which you'll want to use later. Instead of having to grind up a lovely skill to get it on par with what you already have.
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Jan 13, 2017 21:00
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"learn by doing" is balanced only if you also have skill decay, which is yet another lovely tedious mechanic on top of an already lovely tedious mechanic. there's also no reason to do it other than ~~realism~~ and everyone knows doing nothing interesting with ~~realism~~ is a great goldmine for game ideas which will make nobody but the hyper autistic bother with your game if you really want to pretend to be ~~lore friendly~~ you can just pretend you're learning under Barathrum The Old when you buy another tinkering skill tree, or being Argyle's apprentice for a while when you get a physical Willpower skill Anime Schoolgirl fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 21:24
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Inexplicably, spontaneously mutating new knowledge of harvestry because you killed a lot of things and helped a bear burn a CD sounds Qud as hell to be honest.
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Jan 13, 2017 22:16
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Seriously, I mean we're creating nano healing injectors from plastic trees + folding chairs + a fried relay + a potato, while wielding four flaming daggers. Realism tells me that should make me better at persuading people, clearly.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:05
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So some honey monosludges in the rainbow woods just murdered the poo poo out of me by seemingly repeatedly draining my life while also somehow skipping my turn? (it did not seem to be any sort of stun, because then i would have broken out of it with shrug it off) Either that or they were stacked up to hell and back. Not sure if this is intended or not but either way at the moment that final quest is balls hard unless oozes(?) are friendly to you.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:16
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Is wine or honey good for anything? I found a pool of honey in a dungeon, and filled a water skin with it.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:22
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turn it up TURN ME ON posted:Is wine or honey good for anything? I found a pool of honey in a dungeon, and filled a water skin with it. if you get one of the diseases in the game honey and wine are usually one of the ingredients you need to cure it, which you want to do because they are pretty brutal. And honey can sometimes cure it if they're in the early stages.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:24
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turn it up TURN ME ON posted:Is wine or honey good for anything? I found a pool of honey in a dungeon, and filled a water skin with it. If you have an even halfway decent ego wine is worth more than water, making it more efficient to carry around if you find a pool of it. It does require selling it and the waterskin its in though, unlike water which leaves you the skin when you use it to even up trades.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:27
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Is there a more elegant solution to the three Bethesda Suda bosses than "Fire wildly towards them?" I did a few tests with perma death off, and the easiest solution for all three was to just get decent LOS and just let rip with the carbine until they all died, it was more reliable than grenades or electrobow or whatever, but it still feels terribly lame.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:28
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Clever Spambot posted:So some honey monosludges in the rainbow woods just murdered the poo poo out of me by seemingly repeatedly draining my life while also somehow skipping my turn? (it did not seem to be any sort of stun, because then i would have broken out of it with shrug it off) Either that or they were stacked up to hell and back. Not sure if this is intended or not but either way at the moment that final quest is balls hard unless oozes(?) are friendly to you. There were some issues with energy reduction when stuck that would sometimes cause you to lose a bunch of stacked turns when wallowing in sticky liquids that are fixed in tonight's patch.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:31
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I want coffee in Qud because 1. It's a vaguely Middle-Eastern setting 2. Neutron Flux Frappucinos
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Jan 14, 2017 00:33
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Amuys posted:I want coffee in Qud because The only coffee in Qud is the hyperphasic trilatte, invented by the Sultan Tammberqas after she had a dream in which she made war on a tribe of sentient coffee beans.
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Jan 14, 2017 00:57
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Pro-tip: Slugsnouts make amazing Beguile / Proselytize targets. Their AI makes at least some small effort to keep itself alive and they just shred trash mobs like you wouldn't believe.
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Jan 14, 2017 01:51
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I wish there was a true kin start that started out with masterful butchery.
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Jan 14, 2017 03:06
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I wish there were cybernetics worth a poo poo other than green vision replace my arm with a lovely projectile weapon, why not
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Jan 14, 2017 03:35
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Jan 14, 2017 04:25
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Welp time to roll blades
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Jan 14, 2017 04:38
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I'm not excited by most of that -- long blades still have the same problem where you have to invest massively in strength and agility to make them work, to the point where I don't understand how you could possibly afford the attribute budget -- but that guaranteed hit + penetration skill, holy moly. e: Oh Swipe AND Lunge both have that property, all right, I'm beginning to see how this works. Still kind of scratching my head at the +DV bonuses on Defensive stance though -- why would you try to DV tank if you're not going Short Blades? Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jan 14, 2017 |
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Jan 14, 2017 04:48
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Post poste posted:Is there a more elegant solution to the three Bethesda Suda bosses than "Fire wildly towards them?" I ran a build that ended up with cryokinesis + disintegration, and it worked wonders against the invisible dude. Freeze in place (cryo covers 3x3 so you don't have to get exact tile), then blast with disintegration.
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Jan 14, 2017 04:54
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time to play a true kin praetorian imo
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Jan 14, 2017 05:07
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm not excited by most of that -- long blades still have the same problem where you have to invest massively in strength and agility to make them work, to the point where I don't understand how you could possibly afford the attribute budget -- but that guaranteed hit + penetration skill, holy moly. The Short Blades skill's trajectory has been a tricky one. It started out as a support mini-tree that was never supposed to compete with the other 3, then got elevated to Main Weapon status with the change to Shank, but obviously that's caused issues. This Long Blades iteration is about where I want to land with the power level of the weapon skills, assuming it plays out like it does it my models, though that's a big if. That *probably* means a slight buff to axes and cudgels at some point, and another short blades nerf. Edit: just a footnote about my power level comment: I actually expect Long Blades to end up on the high side of the final power balance since it's the most skillpoint intensive and attribute hungry. hand of luke fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jan 14, 2017 |
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Jan 14, 2017 05:16
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I just realized -- En Garde has crazy synergy with Quickness-boosting mutations. I've been looking for a build that actually justified the Heightened Speed + Adrenal Control combo and I think I've found it.
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Jan 14, 2017 06:04
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defensive lunge+sprint to move backwards, switch to aggressive stance and use charge for an attack with +3 penetration and also extra damage+knocking an enemy prone because I have shield bash... fun skill tree imo
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Jan 14, 2017 06:26
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