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Details on Marvel Legacy talk at the Daimond retailer summit https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04/20/marvel-legacy-brings-back-planet-hulk-tony-stark-announced-2017-diamond-summit/ NOW style branding, not a storyline. Will start with a one-shot. Some comics will move to legacy numbering. In Spider-Man Parker Industries will be over Hulk: Return to Planet Hulk. Iron Man: Tony Stark will come back. Newer characters won't be ditched, they say. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 02:09
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Wanderer posted:I think it's appallingly tone-deaf at best, but it's nowhere near the worst thing they've ever done. That's still probably Marville. I can name at least three stories worse than Marville off the top of my head, and I'm intimately familiar. Nobody had weird descendant roofie-rape in Marville.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:26
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END ME SCOOB posted:I can name at least three stories worse than Marville off the top of my head, and I'm intimately familiar. Nobody had weird descendant roofie-rape in Marville. Funny enough one of the worst marvel stories I can think of was also written by Spenser - the Fear Itself Secret Avengers tie in
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Apr 21, 2017 05:28
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Is that the mutant senator one? I forget when that awful one-shot was but my brain goes "that's a Spenserin"
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Apr 21, 2017 05:34
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END ME SCOOB posted:Is that the mutant senator one? I forget when that awful one-shot was but my brain goes "that's a Spenserin" Yes it was
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Apr 21, 2017 05:35
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http://www.avclub.com/article/captain-america-fascist-batman-has-lovely-watchmen-254036 av club tears into both Secret Empire and Batman/Watchmen. 
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Apr 21, 2017 06:48
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Look I'm not going to say that Fear Itself Secret Avengers is a good comic book, but it's not anywhere near the worst recent Marvel comic and I'll tell you why
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Apr 21, 2017 06:57
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The only problem with that comic is every single word written in it, but, yes, a page with only one of them is pretty good.
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Apr 21, 2017 07:05
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END ME SCOOB posted:I can name at least three stories worse than Marville off the top of my head, and I'm intimately familiar. Nobody had weird descendant roofie-rape in Marville. There's a difference between a story where something absolutely terrible happens, where someone involved should've been willing to burn the printing press down before it was released to the world, and a story that would be utterly incomprehensible on a base level even if it wasn't already utterly failing to understand how to use its own medium. Something like Avengers #200 is a terrible comic, because a lot of talented people who really should have known better put out a moral sewer of a story. Marville is terrible and it's terrible at being a comic.
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Apr 21, 2017 08:45
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Synthbuttrange posted:http://www.avclub.com/article/captain-america-fascist-batman-has-lovely-watchmen-254036 Now I'm definitely buying Secret Empire cause this week's Batman was amazing 
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Apr 21, 2017 10:11
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I'm fully aware of Spencer's utter reliance on a Cosmic Cube for his Cap writing so of course all this could change but Secret Wars #0 features: Some terrible, clashing forced humour (that Gamora line especially, and I liked Ant-Man and Superior Foes). Nitro blowing up a populated area again. Space Lesbian Quasar 2.0 seemingly dying, after barely appearing in anything, though still being one of the few prominent LGBT characters currently appearing in Marvel comics. Oh, and the Allies rewriting WWII so that they won... but leaving in the Holocaust. Edgy. As mentioned earlier, the fact that all the older heroes took zero responsibility after CWII and passed it all onto Steve Rogers is just disappointing, especially with Sam Wilson just giving up in the face of racial prejudice. At least Ryan North is writing a Lockjaw backup story. 
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Apr 21, 2017 11:39
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Teenage Fansub posted:Now I'm definitely buying Secret Empire cause this week's Batman was amazing As someone who also loved this week's Batman: don't, honestly. Go get USAvengers instead. There's some cool stuff in Secret Empire #0 (I really didn't expect The Brotherhood of the Shield to show up and reveal they were behind this incarnation of Hydra, complete with Isaac Newton: Sorcerer Supreme and Nostradomus tied to a scrying pool to show up in anything again, much less here) but beyond the novelty of that? It's just more of the same tone-deaf stuff they've been doing with Cap, only they're tripling down on it in a dumb, infuriating way.
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Apr 21, 2017 11:46
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there's no way quasar who has been in like three comics so far actually died from getting eaten by a space whale though that the comic even has the gall to present this as a possible thing that's happened to people who are presumably familiar with basic story telling skills, an Avengers movie that came out several years ago that everyone saw, or like the Bible is pretty lame also the whole "Allies used a cosmic cube to rewrite WWII!" thing is stated by a guy who literally has a Hydra logo for a head, the most trustworthy source of information Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 11:49
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The thing that really bugs me about the setup to Secret Empire is that it's such a lazy counterfactual, the premise is clear enough but Spenser has done nothing to justify it. It's not enough to to just say that the Axis would have won but for the Allies altering reality, you've got to give some indication as to why that's the case. Spenser seems to be coasting on notion of "because otherwise my lovely story won't make sense" which is weak and pretty insulting to all the people who actually did win the war. What did Hydra do to change the course of the war? I'm not expecting some detailed breakdown of what Hydra did when (though as a WWII buff I'd probably read it and enjoy it more) but not justifying it in any way whatsoever is really loving lazy ploting and bad storytelling. I mean, the writing on the issue was much better than I had been bracing for, though I was expecting something far closer to the poo poo sandwich that has been the Sam Cap book, but a decently written bad story is still a bad story.
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Apr 21, 2017 12:44
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Blockhouse posted:also the whole "Allies used a cosmic cube to rewrite WWII!" thing is stated by a guy who literally has a Hydra logo for a head, the most trustworthy source of information Okay, but you gotta understand, if that's the twist - "Psyche, we only made Cap think that the Allies used the Cosmic Cube to rewrite it so the Allies won and we wrote reality back the original way" then that's so god damned stupid. In fact, it's really god damned dumb that this is the storyline at all, if the Cosmic cube can do that, why didn't you just make the story, "Hydra uses the Cosmic Cube to rewrite reality so that they won World War II" I realize that's just a repeat of Age of Apocalypse and House of M, but now Hydra just looks stupid. Why if you have access to a force like the Cosmic Cube do you do something as low scale as changing the allegiance of one man? rantmo posted:The thing that really bugs me about the setup to Secret Empire is that it's such a lazy counterfactual, the premise is clear enough but Spenser has done nothing to justify it. It's not enough to to just say that the Axis would have won but for the Allies altering reality, you've got to give some indication as to why that's the case. Spenser seems to be coasting on notion of "because otherwise my lovely story won't make sense" which is weak and pretty insulting to all the people who actually did win the war. What did Hydra do to change the course of the war? I'm not expecting some detailed breakdown of what Hydra did when (though as a WWII buff I'd probably read it and enjoy it more) but not justifying it in any way whatsoever is really loving lazy ploting and bad storytelling. I mean, the writing on the issue was much better than I had been bracing for, though I was expecting something far closer to the poo poo sandwich that has been the Sam Cap book, but a decently written bad story is still a bad story. Also this!
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Apr 21, 2017 12:57
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https://twitter.com/bleedingcool/status/855156736189239298 They also want the stores to change their logos. How tone deaf can you get? Also the classic Marvel tactic of doubling down on an unpopular thing to force people to like it. Waffleman_ fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 15:28
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Secret Empire #0 was surprisingly good, and seeing people act offended by it is hilarious. My shop has a patriotic name, so I hope they can opt in to get Hydrafied.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:54
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Excuse me for being skeptical of a Marvel event, especially with the premise this one has.
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Apr 21, 2017 15:59
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Open Marriage Night posted:Secret Empire #0 was surprisingly good, and seeing people act offended by it is hilarious. Have you considered people aren't actually acting?
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Apr 21, 2017 16:02
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Open Marriage Night posted:Secret Empire #0 was surprisingly good, and seeing people act offended by it is hilarious. it was kind of weird for me to read it, enjoy it immensely and then see everyone here slating it super super hard. i don't really understand some of the stuff people are saying either, but i am a dumbass so there's that.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:18
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It's mostly that everything so far leading up to it has left such an awful taste in my mouth that I'm refusing to even give it a chance. The event lost me before it began.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:25
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Waffleman_ posted:It's mostly that everything so far leading up to it has left such an awful taste in my mouth that I'm refusing to even give it a chance. The event lost me before it began. That's pretty much how I feel about the whole thing. Plus the fact that I know the whole thing will just get wiped out in some dumb fashion bugs me even more since it makes the event feel like, well, what it is, a cheap ratings grab. It might be extremely well written, but in this case I'm just going to nope my way right on by.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:32
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I'm just assuming everybody will dump on it 3 issues in because it is an event comic, if you count Secret Wars as 3 events then there's still a 75% chance any given marvel event will suck.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:50
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Archyduke posted:Spencer's strengths Go on.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:17
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Dan Didio posted:Go on. The Fix... or a story like The Fix... like say Superior Foes of Spiderman
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Apr 21, 2017 17:20
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trashbuilder posted:The Fix... or a story like The Fix... like say Superior Foes of Spiderman Nick Spencer's greatest strength; Steve Lieber.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:23
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Dan Didio posted:Nick Spencer's greatest strength; Steve Lieber. ant-man was above average  (He is best with Steve Lieber)
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Apr 21, 2017 17:26
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I may be totally off-base here but I wonder if the big schism between positive and negative feelings towards Secret Empire is whether or not you've been following along with the books that lead up to it. In terms of the big turn/twist, the books have really been leaning heavily (whenever Spencer feels like it) on the fact that a) Steve Rogers is an unimpeachable saint, he's never once acted selfishly or out of self-interest or a grudge, he is the Living Paragon of Heroism, Fairness, Truth, Justice, etc. So when he leans on [insert hero hero] to do something that seems innocent but advances the SECRET EMPIRE, even when they're kind of dubious about it, they don't question it, because look at the history of published comics detailing the Marvel Universe, Steve Rogers has always been The Best Guy Ever b) Steve Rogers has secretly been working for the fascist underground murder society HYDRA since childhood, nothing is as you remember it, he's been acting to subvert Heroism, Fairness, Truth, Justice, etc. since the mid 1930s. At every turn he's secretly been trying to take out other heroes, undermine their morale, make sure Hydra/Axis plans succeed, etc. He's been a double agent for decades and when it is convenient to the plot, things that were previously established as happening actually happened in a totally different way than you think, not just in a "oh, what REALLY happened" way, but in a "Baron Zemo Sr. died in 1944 and I guess never appeared anywhere in the modern era, also his son is like fifty years older than previously established, and he has always loved Captain America so I guess those stories where he had a deep personal private grudge against Steve never happened, who knows what happened instead, everything you THINK you know is up for grabs!!!" So the story is relying on both the fact that up until six months ago, Steve Rogers never did a single unheroic thing to make people suspicious or think of him as anything less than the Perfect Role Model. But also for the past seventy-five years, he's been a manipulative double-crossing undercover Hydra agent working hard to gently caress over all of his so-called friends. It's hard to reconcile these two things, and is at the core of pretty much all of his master-plan-by-writer-fiat. How could Puzzle Piece A fall into place? Steve's been working to gently caress over that person for YEARS. How could Puzzle Piece A1 fall into place though? Well, he'd always worked so hard to help the exact same person and they trust him implicitly. I am sure there is a way to tell this story with a scheme so diabolical that Prince Machiavelli himself would be impressed, but you can't just sort of handwave it to be "wheels within wheels, believe you me." The answer of course to all of this weird nonsense is that a child-like omnipotent being of infinite power who is easily manipulated and really lovely at following instructions keeps altering the fundamental nature of reality without anyone noticing. But that doesn't make for a particularly compelling or coherent narrative. So when his DIABOLICAL MASTERSTROKE kicks in it's like someone who used a bunch of cheat codes going "I totally made the best Sim City city, can you believe it? I also have $999,999 in money, pretty impressive, right? You poor fools."
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Apr 21, 2017 18:11
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No matter how good it may or may not be, this is a story I have absolutely zero interest in reading, and the sooner it's over the better.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:34
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I wish Secret Empire was an else world like Injustice was because knowing everything will go back to the status quo kinda ruins the event.
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Apr 21, 2017 20:23
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quote:And because these are for comic store employees, they are only available in L and XL sizes. Brutal.
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Apr 21, 2017 20:31
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Lord Packinham posted:everything will go back to the status quo This is all comics.
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Apr 21, 2017 20:40
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Open Marriage Night posted:Secret Empire #0 was surprisingly good, and seeing people act offended by it is hilarious. Enjoy the influx of nazi customers I guess.
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Apr 21, 2017 20:56
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So far it's repulsing most of my customers. Batman's nearly sold out though
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Apr 21, 2017 20:59
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Dan Didio posted:Go on. I think he writes fun villain dialogue-- kind of campy but often sharp and funny. I think he generally knows how to play to his artists' strengths-- see the comment about Larry Lieber below, for example. I think he's good at understanding pacing and how to tailor pace to the single issue. I've read a fair amount of bad Nick Spencer comics but very few uneventful ones, or ones that felt either dragged out or abbreviated. (I recall T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents being good but honestly I might be conflating that with The Order) I guess in a sense I see him as a latter-day Mark Gruenwald. His biggest strength is looking at the basic rules of the superhero-comic universe and finding novel, often quotidian new angles to them. Sinister Foes in particular felt like a neat extension of the Serpent Society stuff in Gruenwald's Cap. He's good with bad guys who are sort of low-level criminals rather than masterminds because the mentality he's most interested in is how the mentality of the "average person" would work in a setting built on different premises than the real world. Spencer and Gruenwald also have an instinct, I think, for giving the reader their money's worth in quantity if not in quality. Say what you will about the Superia Strategem or whatever, stuff happened on every page, even if it was dumb stuff, which is an even more refreshing approach in 2017. I think more things happened in this first issue of Secret Empire than in all of CW II (which is maybe beating a dead horse, but...) He's less strong on complex motivations, and in particular, as Edge & Christian wrote, his actual Steve Rogers is pretty much incoherent, almost as bad as his Sam Wilson in fact-- because he doesn't write him like a person, he writes him like a paragon, but of two wildly different things. And that push and pull doesn't come off as an interesting tension, it just comes off as a narrative sink-hole. And of course-- just like Gruenwald-- the politics of his stories are hosed if you poke at them too hard. That being said, for all the bad Gruenwald stories I've read I never felt like he was wasting my time, right (even Cap-Wolf)? I kind of feel the same way about Spencer. I think much better writers than him have put out much worse Big Event Books than this. I haven't personally paid for a Spencer book since Sinister Foes but if people I know keep buying this and leaving it out, I mean, I'll stand by my assertion that it's at the very least competently put together enough to read for free.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:01
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Honestly, and I know a lot of people here probably snort at this, but I really can't stomach Nazi Cap at all. He was the creation of two Jewish people creating a fictional character who could fight people who hated them, and I find making Cap into a Nazi to just be making GBS threads all over them in a way that I can't tolerate. I don't particularly care that Hydra isn't actually a Nazi organization or whatever, there's still a strong connection to them, and I really don't want to read something I find revolting like this. But I guess I'm just acting offended and that's hilarious. Edit - Fittingly enough, I just finished the rough draft for my research paper on racial and ethnic diversity in Marvel comics from 1975-1985 if anybody wants to read that. It's a rough draft so don't expect anything amazing out of it. Roth fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 21:02
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Roth posted:But I guess I'm just acting offended and that's hilarious.
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Apr 21, 2017 21:08
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I... I can't. Goodbye cruel world!
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Apr 21, 2017 21:10
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They really should have started with Secret Empire. Have it sold as just a Hydra takeover event and get Cap revealed as behind it all as the crazy twist at the end of the #0 issue, condense Cap's indoctrination story to be dolled out in the first 3-5 pages in the rest of the issues. The concept would have gone over so much better as a big bombastic headspin that lasts an event than a year of slow lead-up. Teenage Fansub fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 21:11
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Roth posted:Honestly, and I know a lot of people here probably snort at this, but I really can't stomach Nazi Cap at all. He was the creation of two Jewish people creating a fictional character who could fight people who hated them, and I find making Cap into a Nazi to just be making GBS threads all over them in a way that I can't tolerate. No, I mean, you have every right to feel viscerally turned-off by all of this. In the same way that the homophobic or transphobic jibes in some Ennis comics have often tainted the well for me. I know he writes good stuff and I even read some of it but there's a part of me that's always like "gently caress this, gently caress him." Of course every reader has the absolute right to draw a line somewhere and say "over this line any enjoyment I might get out of this is compromised by moral revulsion" and again, I get what it's like to have that line be drawn in such a way that online discourse gets sort of hairy. And while for whatever reason I can acclimate myself to the premise of the Secret Empire story, as a queer Jew I do find the comic-shop uniforms and rebranding hopelessly tacky at the very least. hope I didn't come off as implying that people who aren't at all into this event are idiots or over-sensitive. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 21:22
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