KIM JONG TRILL posted:Apparently there’s a ~~canon~~ error already, in that the TFA novelization has Poe and Rey meeting for the first time, and then it happens again in TLJ. Pablo Hidalgo addressed this on Twitter and explicitly stated that the films are the ultimate canon and trump the novels. Hahaha, what about The Story Group????
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Jan 2, 2018 23:13
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Dapper_Swindler posted:to us your anology. the republic is like if the US was a slightly less centralized and moved their capital every decade or so and didn't have central army outside, idk the federal guard or some poo poo. So basically the first few decades of the United States. And blowing up Hosnian System is like, the War of 1812.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:16
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Saw TLJ with my girlfriend shortly after Christmas. Thoughts: Cranky old First Order Admiral is my homeboy. Crystal foxes are way cuter than porgs. Snoke sitting around in a gold bathrobe he probably got from Space Macy's was hilarious. Kylo Ren is much more frightening as a villain now that we've seen categorically what a manipulative, gaslighting, abusive piece of MRA/PUA poo poo he is. Mark Hamill did a great job of selling "ugh, this bullshit?". Seeing Poe's plan end in the most pyrrhic of victories was aces. Eat the rich. Holdo did nothing wrong.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:23
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Milky Moor posted:Hahaha, what about The Story Group???? Presumably the vetted the novelization against the shooting script or screenplay it was being written based on, but not everything in the screenplay makes it to the finished film.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:23
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cptn_dr posted:God, I don't envy Pablo Hidalgo. galagazombie posted:I always got the feeling he liked and "got" Star Wars so it's sad seeing him have to tow the company line as a human shield for all the Last Jedi hate. He wrote some good stuff for WEG back in the day but he's basically the 1990s/early 2000s equivalent of if some moderator from TFN happened to stumble into a job at Lucasfilm and then fell upwards into coordinating the Star Wars brand. On the plus side he's a Star Wars fanboy helping run the franchise, on the down side he's a Star Wars fanboy helping run the franchise.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:28
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Kurui Reiten posted:Hot take: I watched The Last Jedi and really liked it. It's me, I'm the worst fan. i liked it too. i get some of the reasons people hate it and not others. Tumblr of scotch posted:Saw TLJ with my girlfriend shortly after Christmas. Thoughts: he probably was like lieutenant maybe even a captain at during the good old days before it went to poo poo at endor now he is taking orders from some dumb adult failson who is at least 20 years younger then him who backstabber and nepotism his way to power so said failson can win in his petty feud with other failson who wears a toy mask to work.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:00
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galagazombie posted:I see these problems as being the ultimate culmination of the problem that was present even in Legends where the 3 in-universe years after ANH and before ESB contained like 50% of all published material. That's the "Iconic Star Wars Brand" and the two sequel movies are an attempt to undo all development that ESB and RotJ made so they can keep the Brand in a merchandise selling timeless limbo. People liked Rebels in X-Wings fighting an Empire in TIE Fighters? Make that eternal and twist the universe into whatever unnatural knots necessary to keep it that way. You know, they could have kept the New Republic, had them fight the First Order, and you would still have sides that look a lot like the old ones using X-Wings and TIE Fighters. Heck, you could even have some pretty sick battles when both sides are roughly equal! The Force Awakens pressing the reset button and reverting the status quo to A New Hope was the worst thing you could have done. It's been said before, but putting space Nazis in charge of the galaxy again and wiping out the Jedi again kind of makes the whole original trilogy pointless. The Last Jedi has some major problems for sure, but I think Rian Johnson did the best he could with the poo poo sandwich he was given. I can kind of respect the Last Jedi and the prequels to some degree because they tried to do something new even though they weren't well executed. Force Awakens and Rogue One are creatively bankrupt. Now granted, I'm not saying the prequels are good movies mind you, I'm not a CineD poster, but at least George Lucas had an artistic vision, albeit a failed one. I think Rian Johnson is a lot like that too, although not quite as severe because while very flawed, the Last Jedi was no were close to the trainwreck that was Attack of the Clones. ...although I do kinda place Last Jedi somewhere near Revenge of the Sith. As in, not nearly as good as the original movies, but something I can at least kind of enjoy. GET IN THE ROBOT fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 02:13
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No one is going to convince me the completely loving silent lightspeed ramming scene was not incredible.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:46
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Kurui Reiten posted:No one is going to convince me the completely loving silent lightspeed ramming scene was not incredible. It was great but raises an awful lot of questions I don't think the movie wanted you to ask.
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Jan 3, 2018 03:32
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It's a Pandora's Box. It raises the question of why isn't this always done.
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Jan 3, 2018 03:38
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I still think Force Awakens is a really good movie. Everything from the beginning to the Falcon chase is up there with the best bits of the franchise. In fact it only really loses steam once Harrison Ford shows up and then things fall into more rote territory. Breaking free of Jakku should have been the first step into the larger world, where everything gets contextualized, but instead the story decides to stay on the fringes of the overall galactic scene and I think that ultimately hurts the sequel trilogy because it fails to properly set up the stakes.
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Jan 3, 2018 03:40
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jivjov posted:The film novelizations have always been a bit of a grey area. They're written using a not-final screenplay by someone who hasn't ever seen the film. No, Blue Squadron is correct. They changed it because the blue markings hosed with the bluescreen work they were doing, and red didn't.
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Jan 3, 2018 04:20
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Pablo has been talking about the novelization non-canon conflict factors for the last few years. It's not a gotcha. His answer then was the same as now, the novelizations are written before the author has seen the movie and before the final cut is locked. So the novelizations are just adaptations that are canon unless a conflict arises from a canon source. Meaning Unkar Plutt had his arms ripped off by Chewie until it's conflicted by a later movie, book, tv show or comic. The TLJ novel is actually coming out in a few months, which is usually not the norm, they usually hit the same month the movie comes out. Which leads me to think it was actually being delayed to help address this very issue. Teek fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 06:17
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I remember back in 1999, I bought and read the Phantom Menace novelization before the movie came out. Something like that happening these days is unimaginable.
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Jan 3, 2018 07:02
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Arcsquad12 posted:I still think Force Awakens is a really good movie. Everything from the beginning to the Falcon chase is up there with the best bits of the franchise. In fact it only really loses steam once Harrison Ford shows up and then things fall into more rote territory. Breaking free of Jakku should have been the first step into the larger world, where everything gets contextualized, but instead the story decides to stay on the fringes of the overall galactic scene and I think that ultimately hurts the sequel trilogy because it fails to properly set up the stakes. I would love to say that the Force Awakens is a bad movie, however saying that would also mean that A New Hope is a bad movie. As such I can only at best say that it's a good movie, yet creatively bankrupt. It really makes me wish they'd just done a straight remake of the original trilogy and gone from there with the new cast.
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Jan 3, 2018 08:23
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Wait I thought the resistance was the new republic. Making them two different factions is beyond dumb.
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Jan 3, 2018 10:39
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Teek posted:Pablo has been talking about the novelization non-canon conflict factors for the last few years. It's not a gotcha. His answer then was the same as now, the novelizations are written before the author has seen the movie and before the final cut is locked. So the novelizations are just adaptations that are canon unless a conflict arises from a canon source. Eh it is a gotcha because before the argument was the story group had equal control over Canon. Which we know isn't true and only jivjov cares about.
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Jan 3, 2018 10:42
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Cythereal posted:It was great but raises an awful lot of questions I don't think the movie wanted you to ask. It seems like an odd thing to get hung up on, though. To some extent, I get why people are hung up on it (it is a question of suspension of disbelief), but it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me.  Do I just not take these Star Wars seriously enough? Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 12:08
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Wheat Loaf posted:It seems like an odd thing to get hung up on, though. To some extent, I get why people are hung up on it (it is a question of suspension of disbelief), but it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. The movie does kind of invite this sort of over-analysis by having whole story-lines about how risky heroics just get a lot of people killed, and you've got to see the big picture to win, and how the real bad guys are the military-industrial complex, maaan... It seems like it wants to dip its toes into being more realistic than your standard space-opera good vs. evil fantasy, but then towards the end seems to just give up and go back to singular heroes and flashy effects.
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Jan 3, 2018 13:49
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Wheat Loaf posted:It seems like an odd thing to get hung up on, though. To some extent, I get why people are hung up on it (it is a question of suspension of disbelief), but it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me. The movie was boring enough that I found myself wondering about things like that instead of pretending to care about Flight of the Death Star Plans 2.0 or Hoth 2.0 or The Temptation of Luke 2.0.
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Jan 3, 2018 14:49
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CharlestheHammer posted:Wait I thought the resistance was the new republic. Yeah, I'll cosign this. TFA's Resistance should have just been an underfunded New Republic task force or something and then at the end realize "oh poo poo, we're literally the only good guys still alive, maybe we should form another ALLIANCE of REBELS or something." TFA was overall very good but they were so eager to make Rebels vs. Empire again that the political situation was completely half-baked. ninjahedgehog fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 16:57
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CharlestheHammer posted:Wait I thought the resistance was the new republic. The New Republic is not involved in the war. The Resistance is basically Leia taking her influence and running her own personal army because nobody else will do it. It's a literal plot point in the film.
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Jan 3, 2018 17:05
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Cythereal posted:The movie was boring enough that I found myself wondering about things like that instead of pretending to care about Flight of the Death Star Plans 2.0 or Hoth 2.0 or The Temptation of Luke 2.0. Maybe I read too many bad EU stories in my teenage years and they inured me to most of the comparably silly things the new movies could do. I'm not saying none of these things aren't problems - I certainly think a lot of them are - just that I have a hard time being too bothered by most of them.
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Jan 3, 2018 17:14
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ImpAtom posted:The New Republic is not involved in the war. The Resistance is basically Leia taking her influence and running her own personal army because nobody else will do it. It's a literal plot point in the film. No, it's a plot point in the EU. In TFA itself it's repeatedly stated that the Republic supports the Resistance, to the point it's in the opening crawl, Hux's justification to Snoke for using the Starkiller on the Republic, and Hux's speech when he's firing the weapon. TFA, in and of itself alone, couldn't be clearer on the point that the Republic actively supports the Resistance. Even in TLJ, Poe identifies himself as "Commander Poe Dameron of the Republic Fleet," not "of the Resistance" (who get called the Rebels half the time, anyway).
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Jan 3, 2018 17:19
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Chairman Capone posted:No, it's a plot point in the EU. In TFA itself it's repeatedly stated that the Republic supports the Resistance, to the point it's in the opening crawl, Hux's justification to Snoke for using the Starkiller on the Republic, and Hux's speech when he's firing the weapon. TFA, in and of itself alone, couldn't be clearer on the point that the Republic actively supports the Resistance. Even in TLJ, Poe identifies himself as "Commander Poe Dameron of the Republic Fleet," not "of the Resistance" (who get called the Rebels half the time, anyway). No, it's a plot point in the film that the Republic and Resistance are separate. Hux's speech explicitly points out that the Republic is secretly supporting the Resistance, not openly doing so. If you think "big government secretly supports small resistance fighters in a war they're not technically involved in" is unrealistic then I'm not sure what to say. I don't doubt TLJ cares less about it because TLJ cares less about everything in TFA, but within the confines of TFA it's pretty explicitly stated that the Republic isn't openly involved in the war they are just funding the Resistance. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 17:25
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Because I'm bored, I'm just copying/pasting from the TFA script: Opening crawl: "With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE." Hux to Snoke: "The weapon. It is ready. I believe the time has come to use it. We shall destroy the government that supports the Resistance, the Republic. Without their friends to protect them, the Resistance will be vulnerable, and we will stop them before they reach Skywalker." Hux in his Nazi rally speech: "Today is the end of the Republic! The end of a regime that acquiesces to disorder! At this very moment, in a system far from here the New Republic LIES to the GALAXY while secretly supporting the treachery of the loathsome Resistance." Threepio after hearing the Starkiller is targeting the Resistance: "Oh my. Without the Republic fleet, we're doomed." So yes, it's pretty clear in TFA that the Republic itself as a government is indeed supporting the Resistance, as you said in your second post, and not Leia running away from the Republic and having no connection with them, as the EU says.
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Jan 3, 2018 17:32
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The Republic refuses to take direct action. They support Leia's resistance via old hardware and old war vets (note Ackbar, etc). The public line is "nah, we aren't gonna deal with the First Order", which is why Leia has to be off doing it.
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Jan 3, 2018 18:38
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Angry Salami posted:The movie does kind of invite this sort of over-analysis by having whole story-lines about how risky heroics just get a lot of people killed, and you've got to see the big picture to win, and how the real bad guys are the military-industrial complex, maaan... It seems like it wants to dip its toes into being more realistic than your standard space-opera good vs. evil fantasy, but then towards the end seems to just give up and go back to singular heroes and flashy effects. This is my biggest complaint about TLJ: It teases at taking things in a different direction, but at the end of the day it still fits with the narrative arc that's been well tread.
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Jan 3, 2018 19:06
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Angry Salami posted:The movie does kind of invite this sort of over-analysis by having whole story-lines about how risky heroics just get a lot of people killed, and you've got to see the big picture to win, and how the real bad guys are the military-industrial complex, maaan... It seems like it wants to dip its toes into being more realistic than your standard space-opera good vs. evil fantasy, but then towards the end seems to just give up and go back to singular heroes and flashy effects. now for my essay on how TLJ promotes the failed strategy of foco and the resistance should become maoist-outer-rimmist
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Jan 3, 2018 19:28
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ImpAtom posted:The New Republic is not involved in the war. The Resistance is basically Leia taking her influence and running her own personal army because nobody else will do it. It's a literal plot point in the film. That's so dumb. It's also dumb I missed it, so everything is dumb.
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Jan 3, 2018 19:36
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CharlestheHammer posted:That's so dumb. Is it dumb because you weren't paying attention, dumb because it wasn't what you personally wanted/expected from the sequel trilogy, or dumb for an actual articulable reason?
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Jan 3, 2018 19:41
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jivjov posted:Is it dumb because you weren't paying attention, dumb because it wasn't what you personally wanted/expected from the sequel trilogy, or dumb for an actual articulable reason? The first and third. That was kind of the point of the post Having two quasi independent factions warring inside a government body that isn't tied to feudalism is insane.
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Jan 3, 2018 19:59
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CharlestheHammer posted:The first and third. Uhhhh, okay. Yeah. No non-feudal governments have ever had factions. Right.
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Jan 3, 2018 20:04
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jivjov posted:Uhhhh, okay. Yeah. No non-feudal governments have ever had factions. Right. Outside of street fighter nope. This would not count as streetfighting. Though these aren't state factions either way, as state factions are specifically not autonomous. As their whole point is working within the state.
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Jan 3, 2018 20:08
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Mmhmm, there's never been any government that's supported a cause under the table that they official are not associated with. Total fantasy. And as we know, nothing fictional can be in Star Wars.
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Jan 3, 2018 20:11
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Not within their own state no as it's loving stupid. I never said anything about realism, I said it was dumb. You were the one arguing realism until it became untenable. Shameful even for you jivjov.
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Jan 3, 2018 20:15
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CharlestheHammer posted:Not within their own state no as it's loving stupid. Being stupid doesn't mean it's a thing that doesn't actually happen.
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Jan 3, 2018 20:18
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ImpAtom posted:Being stupid doesn't mean it's a thing that doesn't actually happen. Was about to post literally this. Yeah, its kinda dumb that the New Republic refused to acknowledge the threat of the First Order...but people (both real and fictional) do dumb things ALL THE TIME. Nobody (real or fictional) is a perfectly rational actor.
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Jan 3, 2018 20:24
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ImpAtom posted:Being stupid doesn't mean it's a thing that doesn't actually happen. I can't think of a good example outside of feudalism. Which even then the Kings didn't leave them alone out of apathy. Usually it was because the main state was to weak to interfere, not indifferent. Hell if there is one thing that is consistent throughout history is that if the state is threatened they will do everything they can to destroy it. Though like I said realism or not doesn't matter it's just dumb way to make the resistance the underdogs. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 20:24
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jivjov posted:Was about to post literally this. Yeah that's all fine. The thing that gets me is that it destroyed their ENTIRE fleet and killed the New Republic completely. They had their entire fleet in one star system? They didn't have ships out elsewhere? And they all just surrendered and their government ceased to exist when their capital was destroyed? If someone nuked Washington D.C., would the United States immediately capitulate to whoever did it and dissolve their government? The way to fix this would be if they said "the Republic still exists, it's just in a state of chaos with its capital destroyed and greatly weakened with half of its fleet taken out." When the Resistance was running away from the First Order, they could have said they were trying to rendezvous with what was left of the Republic's fleet. Then the conflict could have been the weakened Republic defending its territory and staging a counteroffensive to drive the First Order out of Republic space. That would have been way, way better than "lol welp the Empire is in charge again and we have a tiny band of Rebels trying to overthrow them again."
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Jan 3, 2018 20:40
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