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DizzyBum posted:I'm not a confrontational person but I am definitely a "Really??" kind of guy; I can at least do that much. On the contrary, it tends to work quite well; see also richardspencer% site posted:If you want minorities to be included and protected, you need to have them involved at every level to insure they're being heard and their suggestions being incorporated into the process. The other main issue with this is that you have to give the minority parts of your team the power and authority to make and carry out decisions without being stonewalled by the cis white segment, which effectively means that you have to trust that one of the problems will recognize their behavior as being the problem "I don't think that we should be that harsh, [minority team member], maybe we could do it differently" "that is the exact same thing you tried before and ended up getting you roasted live on twitter, and why you decided to bring me in" "but but but"
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Nov 29, 2018 21:30
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punching racists is good but would probably get you thrown out of GDQ instead lead them out of the hotel with a breadcrumb trail of caramel popcorn and then punch them
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Nov 29, 2018 21:32
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site posted:I agree in the abstract, in that that should be the way it works, but just slapping a PR person on the team and leaving the decision making to the same group of people who've made the same bad decisions over and over and just expecting them to change is just asking for disappointment. Plus I'm not too thrilled at the idea of specifically excluding minorities from the process because out of some notion that you can yell cishet white men with lovely notions into doing the right thing, as that invariably never works. If you want minorities to be included and protected, you need to have them involved at every level to insure they're being heard and their suggestions being incorporated into the process. My post was about how 1) we don't want to be a card someone can pull to defend themselves, and 2) words and actions can be perceived differently from how you mean them, and that if you hurt someone by your words or actions you need to demonstrate that you're sorry with more than just words.
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Nov 29, 2018 21:32
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D. Ebdrup posted:Did you mean to quote me? Because I'm pretty sure I never said anything about not having LGBQT+ involved. eke out posted:yeah also lgbqt people in other positions shouldn't have to try to be their conscience about these issues, it's not a substitute for having those people in meaningful leadership roles D. Ebdrup posted:This is it, right here. LGBQT+ people aren't other peoples conscience, and being or knowing one isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card. I took these two to mean that placing minorities into leadership/decision making positions wasnt a good idea, but if i misunderstood then sorry
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Nov 29, 2018 21:39
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I mean, the new person they could get to make such decisions doesn't have to be a member of the minorities in question, they just have to understand the position they're in and represent them properly. Realistically it could be any human being of actual worth, instead of people who do nothing.
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Nov 29, 2018 21:44
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eke out posted:yeah also lgbqt people in other positions shouldn't have to try to be their conscience about these issues, it's not a substitute for having those people in meaningful leadership roles Oh I totally misread the first post I quoted. GDQ at an individual contractor/employee level is generally liberal/progressive. I'm not going to like, give numbers of poc/LGTBQ staff that are or were employed (because then it sounds like I'm saying "they know minorities they're good"), but it is generally a socially progressive group. Imo GDQ the org falls apart when it tries to be a neutral not-drumming-up controversy org. They try to play a middle ground and remain politically neutral, except there's an incredibly toxic contingent of the community that they have to ignore. It's easier to just sort of accept it exists than fight it, and I can understand the reasoning of staying in the middle while saying "hey we support trans people etc. etc." It's easier and you can say something dumb like "well we don't want to fracture the audience!". The problem is that positioning is incredibly fragile because it's contradictory. If you support trans people, why are they getting harassed on Twitter and stream chat and why are chuds allowed to go. They were challenged over this two days ago, and while they eventually took the right course of action, they looked real bad. To make matters worse, Matt's replies were tragically awful. Based off my personal experience, he got flustered, and just didn't know what to do (which was literally nothing), and just gave the worst responses imaginable, holy poo poo. Like, GDQ has a PR person, and they're good. I have a feeling Matt did most of this without the PR person being involved because of how flustered he got. I don't really have a point for this post besides adding some context, and I'm not trying to defend GDQ. They hosed up, and if someone wanted to boycott I wouldn't stop 'em. They need to revamp their stances and formally go from passive "we support poc/trans people!" to "we ban chuds." Matty should also probably never tweet like, ever again, and they need to reevaluate how they broadcast bans and the reports they got in.
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Nov 29, 2018 21:44
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does the elite not still have forums full of these infirm dummies’ bigotposts years of posts is good evidence lol
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Nov 29, 2018 21:45
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CJacobs posted:I mean, the new person they could get to make such decisions doesn't have to be a member of the minorities in question, they just have to understand the position they're in and represent them properly. Realistically it could be any human being of actual worth, instead of people who do nothing. Nah, sticking some cishet white dude who claims allyship is never gonna be an equal substitute for an actual minority with lived experience. If gdq came out and said were gonna take these issues seriously from now on, let me introduce A Wyatt Mann as our minority outreach coordinator or whatever i would know immediately theyre full of poo poo. You want to be an ally you need to be able to take a step back and let them in instead of doing it in the name of
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Nov 29, 2018 22:08
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site posted:I took these two to mean that placing minorities into leadership/decision making positions wasnt a good idea, but if i misunderstood then sorry i must've phrased that badly because i definitely meant the opposite -- that you shouldn't rely on LGBQT people in relatively low-ranking, non-executive positions to do a bunch of unpaid labor to try to tamp down on bigotry in your organization, you should pay them appropriately and give them authority to make the necessary reforms needed to create a safe and inclusive community. site posted:Nah, sticking some cishet white dude who claims allyship is never gonna be an equal substitute for an actual minority with lived experience. If gdq came out and said were gonna take these issues seriously from now on, let me introduce A Wyatt Mann as our minority outreach coordinator or whatever i would know immediately theyre full of poo poo. You want to be an ally you need to be able to take a step back and let them in instead of doing it in the name of 
eke out fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 22:18
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If you genuinely want minority input, then yeah, they need to be in an actual position (paid commensurately) to execute policy, not just consult and make recommendations that can be ignored.
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Nov 29, 2018 22:25
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eke out posted:i must've phrased that badly because i definitely meant the opposite -- that you shouldn't rely on LGBQT people in relatively low-ranking, non-executive positions to do a bunch of unpaid labor to try to tamp down on bigotry in your organization, you should pay them appropriately and give them authority to make the necessary reforms needed to create a safe and inclusive community. Oh jeeze, im sorry. YES
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Nov 29, 2018 22:28
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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:a simple "cmon, really?" Is sometimes enough to get them to regret their words and deeds. If these people are in insular enough communities, like the elite, its possible theyve never had any kind of pushback at all ever to saying these kinds of things. If they double down just deck them lol This is more or less the sort of thing I wish could happen in speedrunning before the somewhat nuclear option of just isolating someone from events entirely and is the sort of thing I've posted about before but in the past few years of being repeatedly disappointed with the subculture on this front, speedrunning has no effective delivery method for that kind of peer shaming. Which leaves GDQ as the only entity that can, really? And I don't trust it to perform that function for a variety of reasons, among just the fact that I inherently distrust American companies regardless of how well I know some of the people behind the scenes? I've heard enough casual hatred at these events to know that it doesn't hold to that ideal reality. I've wanted to believe that a "this ain't it chief" can cause people to back off, and in the right setting it totally can! Speedrunning does not seem to be that ideal setting. Internet/social media in general aren't great at this.
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Nov 29, 2018 22:36
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hiring ben carson and milo yanapolis to hit my minority quota and fix bigotry
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Nov 29, 2018 22:50
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site posted:Nah, sticking some cishet white dude who claims allyship is never gonna be an equal substitute for an actual minority with lived experience. If gdq came out and said were gonna take these issues seriously from now on, let me introduce A Wyatt Mann as our minority outreach coordinator or whatever i would know immediately theyre full of poo poo. You want to be an ally you need to be able to take a step back and let them in instead of doing it in the name of What do you mean "claims" allyship? What if they just have allyship edit: Either way you're wrong imo, empathy and critical thinking can cross the boundries of gender/ethnicity/etc. Anybody has the ability to take that stuff into account. If they did hire a minority party in this situation then great, but if not then they wouldn't be any less effective if they actually did the job they are signed onto. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 22:56
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You are pretty well exemplifying people who claim allyship right now
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Nov 29, 2018 23:03
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ahem
heehee fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Jul 7, 2021 |
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Nov 29, 2018 23:05
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site posted:You are pretty well exemplifying people who claim allyship right now what cjacobs is saying makes sense to me, just explain urself dude or ur not gonna educate anyone
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Nov 29, 2018 23:07
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cheese05 exploding over being a Jordan Peterson defender right now.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:08
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heeheex2 posted:what cjacobs is saying makes sense to me, just explain urself dude or ur not gonna educate anyone Did uh...did you not read this site posted:Nah, sticking some cishet white dude who claims allyship is never gonna be an equal substitute for an actual minority with lived experience. If gdq came out and said were gonna take these issues seriously from now on, let me introduce A Wyatt Mann as our minority outreach coordinator or whatever i would know immediately theyre full of poo poo. You want to be an ally you need to be able to take a step back and let them in instead of doing it in the name of
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Nov 29, 2018 23:11
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heeheex2 posted:what cjacobs is saying makes sense to me, just explain urself dude or ur not gonna educate anyone One person is saying that we need to make room for queer and non-white voices in communities if they want to be seen as open and tolerant environments, and the other person is saying "actually I'm pretty sure we can do it with only straight white men" and you think the latter is the one that makes sense?
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Nov 29, 2018 23:15
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It is theoretically possible for a straight white cis male who's put a lot of time into researching the topic to represent minority interests well. It is not only theoretically possible, but incredibly common, for a straight white cis male to think they can represent minority interests well while actually loving up and getting a bunch of important stuff wrong. Because doing this sort of work requires more than just goodwill, it also requires actual knowledge, and by far the easiest way to get that knowledge is lived experience in dealing with discrimination that they don't have. And then, when they're called out on loving up, they usually get defensive - because after all, their intentions really were good, and no-one likes being told they hosed up, and some of the people telling them they hosed up are (rightfully) angry and therefore being insulting. At worst they go on tilt and dig themselves into a deeper hole than they can reasonably escape from. Case in point: Matt.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:21
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420 Gank Mid posted:One person is saying that we need to make room for queer and non-white voices in communities if they want to be seen as open and tolerant environments, and the other person is saying "actually I'm pretty sure we can do it with only straight white men" and you think the latter is the one that makes sense? I think you’re interpreting cjacobs posts incorrectly. Empathy is a human trait, not specific to whatever.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:22
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420 Gank Mid posted:One person is saying that we need to make room for queer and non-white voices in communities if they want to be seen as open and tolerant environments, and the other person is saying "actually I'm pretty sure we can do it with only straight white men" and you think the latter is the one that makes sense? What the gently caress lol, I literally said anybody could do the job
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Nov 29, 2018 23:22
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site posted:Did uh...did you not read this did you see my ben carson milo yanapolis shitpost
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Nov 29, 2018 23:22
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CJacobs posted:What the gently caress lol, I literally said anybody could do the job Well I think the last 48 hours have proved that to be demonstrably untrue as Matt, despite whatever intentions he has, hosed the job up insanely badly.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:30
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What I am saying is that there's no point waiting around for the exact right someone-who-can-do-the-job, when the current people cannot do the job. Trying to twist my words into saying I think minorities should be kept out of GDQ or out of managerial positions is really hosed up and I don't appreciate it.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:32
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CJacobs posted:What the gently caress lol, I literally said anybody could do the job you should seriously back off and pick your battles better, 'technically, the person doing this doesn't HAVE to be lgbqt' is exactly the wrong kind of pedantic point to try to press right now
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Nov 29, 2018 23:35
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So now wanting minorities in these positions is waiting for the exact right person as if they are somehow hard to find and Not All Men but we're the ones twisting wordspumpinglemma posted:It is not only theoretically possible, but incredibly common, for a straight white cis male to think they can represent minority interests well while actually loving up and getting a bunch of important stuff wrong. Because doing this sort of work requires more than just goodwill, it also requires actual knowledge, and by far the easiest way to get that knowledge is lived experience in dealing with discrimination that they don't have. And then, when they're called out on loving up, they usually get defensive - because after all, their intentions really were good, and no-one likes being told they hosed up, and some of the people telling them they hosed up are (rightfully) angry and therefore being insulting. At worst they go on tilt and dig themselves into a deeper hole than they can reasonably escape from. Case in point: cjacobs.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:36
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do you guys know that most of the GDQ leadership is minorities or is this beside the point It's more complex than hire minorities fix video games, I think.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:37
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site posted:So now wanting minorities in these positions is waiting for the exact right person as if they are somehow hard to find and Not All Men but we're the ones twisting words Wow. Ok I'm tapping out this is ridiculous lol
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Nov 29, 2018 23:37
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why are you guys misinterpreting CJacobs posts so intentionally? Disrespectful folks we’re all trying to have an honest discussion here ...
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Nov 29, 2018 23:38
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CJacobs posted:Wow. Ok I'm tapping out this is ridiculous lol fwiw I understand what you’re saying.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:39
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yeah I think you're taking Jacobs posts on weirdly bad faith
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Nov 29, 2018 23:40
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:yeah I think you're taking Jacobs posts on weirdly bad faith max payne 3 speedruns SUCK
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Nov 29, 2018 23:41
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i skipped over the last 40 posts
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Nov 29, 2018 23:43
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CJacobs posted:What I am saying is that there's no point waiting around for the exact right someone-who-can-do-the-job, when the current people cannot do the job. "GDQ needs someone better" is something everyone agrees on, but I think you're wrong about there being no point. Who fills or creates this representational role is going to matter, by the very nature of the role. If the act of waiting hurts GDQ that's their medicine to swallow. IMHO it seems like people are pretty close to agreement here and we're mostly missing on 'can' vs. 'should' semantics and this time-based pragmatism I disagree with
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Nov 29, 2018 23:44
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:yeah I think you're taking Jacobs posts on weirdly bad faith i think almost anyone can recognize that when a bunch of people are discussing issues of minority representation, "you don't need to hire a minority just someone who will be good and represent them well" is going to be poorly received by members of said minority!
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Nov 29, 2018 23:45
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CJacobs posted:What I am saying is that there's no point waiting around for the exact right someone-who-can-do-the-job, when the current people cannot do the job. Trying to twist my words into saying I think minorities should be kept out of GDQ or out of managerial positions is really hosed up and I don't appreciate it. CJacobs posted:What do you mean "claims" allyship? What if they just have allyship
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Nov 29, 2018 23:49
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:yeah I think you're taking Jacobs posts on weirdly bad faith Nah hes done this same schtick in another thread too
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Nov 29, 2018 23:50
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CJacobs posted:What the gently caress lol, I literally said anybody could do the job Yes, implying that the job of fostering an open and tolerant community could be done by a homogenous group of straight white men is the thing I am criticizing you for. rooting out bigotry is not just some job anyone can do, it's tough work
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Nov 29, 2018 23:51
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