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team overhead smash posted:So based on the prophecy I'm assuming we all think Logen Ninegfingers is going to show back up in book 2 based on the prophecy mentioning a lamb eating a wolf or whatever it was No, remember how at the end the people are calling Orso the lamb.
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Sep 21, 2019 01:08
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Spoilers for the whole book ahead! It’s a changing of the guard for sure. - Anyone else wondering if Bayaz was behind Jezal’s sudden death? - I’m curious about what’s going on in the Gurkish Empire if Khalul seems to have vanished? Is Ferro still around killing Eaters? - Any theories on the Weaver? Wouldn’t be Bayaz revisiting the Tanner scheme from the first trilogy, but to build Orso up instead, would it? - Dammit, why did it have to be Wonderful!  And Clover just seems like a younger version of Craw from The Heroes until that last bit (is Craw still around?). Just how many people is Abercrombie going to write as having held a shield at the Ninefingers/Fenris fight anyway?!-Broad seems a bit too much like Shivers in the first half of BSC, with the barely controlled anger. Or Friendly. Similarly, the young characters all feel like ones we’ve seen in the other books. Only Rikke feels especially new, and that perhaps only because of her Long Eye.
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Sep 21, 2019 01:26
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Doctor Jeep posted:No, remember how at the end the people are calling Orso the lamb. poo poo, you're right. I thought of my theory on like page 10 when the prophecy came in, then just stuck with it and didn't pick up that it applied to another character at the end of the book.
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Sep 21, 2019 02:17
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I just tore through the book in three days, and enjoyed it enough that I spent a day off reading it. The only issue I had is that Rikke and Isern's dialogue read like it was written by Joss Whedon, in other words, a nerd trying too hard. Aside from that it was superb, and I particularly liked the long chapter at the start of Part II, where the style reminded me a lot of the battle scenes in The Heroes.Hemp Knight posted:
quote:
Also, I was very glad to see Tunny again, and if I ever meet JA I'll ask him how he captured the spirit of the enlisted soldier so perfectly in him.
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Sep 21, 2019 02:45
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Magitek posted:About to start reading the new book. Any important sections of the previous books I should review beforehand? Particular minor characters, secondary plot arcs, etc? It's probably been 5 years since I read the original trilogy and 3 years since the other novels. Skim all of them I think. There are low-grade references to each of the books so far.
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Sep 21, 2019 02:45
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The Age of Madness has begun...why the gently caress are the other two books out yet? Let's march on Hachette and burn them to the ground.
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Sep 21, 2019 07:45
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So... I'm pretty interested about how the rest of Rikke's prophecies will turn out. Most of them happened pretty straightforward
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Sep 21, 2019 10:16
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Gantolandon posted:I have no idea who the owl is supposed to be. Maybe Bayaz? the owl is a symbol for wisdom, iirc, so probably bayaz
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Sep 21, 2019 12:19
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I don't think it's Bayez that killed Jezal. His whole thing is Union stability and killing the absolute monarch you control doesn't do that. It especially doesn't do that when the heir looks like a jackass and a powerful rival has just joined the stage.A civil war is a messy way of getting whatever social change he might want. My thought for the open door/empty room was Tolemei and/or Yulwei getting out of the house of the maker. Overall I liked the new characters, but I disliked the lack of world building. The Heroes really set the North up as a diverse and contentious place and it seemed to regress. I was fine with that if the Northern war was resolved with this book, but since we're doing "short-sighted king reaches for the stars" again it just seems too pat.
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Sep 21, 2019 15:17
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:I don't think it's Bayez that killed Jezal. His whole thing is Union stability and killing the absolute monarch you control doesn't do that. It especially doesn't do that when the heir looks like a jackass and a powerful rival has just joined the stage.A civil war is a messy way of getting whatever social change he might want. I suspect Sulfur trying to get out of his master's shadow. Both outright murder and fermenting an open rebellion are definitely his style. Bayaz was occupied for most of the book with Zacharus and Cawneil, so his apprentice more or less was free to act. quote:Overall I liked the new characters, but I disliked the lack of world building. The Heroes really set the North up as a diverse and contentious place and it seemed to regress. I was fine with that if the Northern war was resolved with this book, but since we're doing "short-sighted king reaches for the stars" again it just seems too pat. I don't think the worldbuilding aspect was lacking, it's just that the North was the focus of The Heroes, while the new book mostly concentrates on the Union. I'm a little miffed about Khalul getting defeated offscreen and lack of the Old Empire, given how much the previous books emphasized the growing resistance againat Bayaz's machinations, but I hope the next books will pick this subject up
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Sep 21, 2019 15:55
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Uh-oh. Guess I'm done with the thread till I finish my reread and actually get to the new book. Fairwell fellow travelers.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:35
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It's worth pointing out that Abercrombie has actually already written all 3 books in the trilogy. IIRC book 2 is in the editing phase and book 3 is on it's second draft. They're coming out in September 2020 and 2021 respectively. He's kind of like bizzaro-GRRM in that while he writes fantastic books, he also actually loving writes them.
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Sep 21, 2019 16:53
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PopetasticPerson posted:It's worth pointing out that Abercrombie has actually already written all 3 books in the trilogy. IIRC book 2 is in the editing phase and book 3 is on it's second draft. They're coming out in September 2020 and 2021 respectively. He's kind of like bizzaro-GRRM in that while he writes fantastic books, he also actually loving writes them. Yeah I remember theorizing that this thread would turn bad when he announced he was gonna write the whole trilogy before publication, cool to be on the other side of it, so many years later. I'm halfway through so I'll slip back out.
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Sep 21, 2019 17:01
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Just finished it. What a great loving book.
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Sep 21, 2019 19:10
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team overhead smash posted:That Ardee's kid is the bastard daughter of King Jezal is probably the main thing that changes how you read the book. It gets revealed to a character at the end of the book if you forgot it was a thing and can be shocking there if you didn't know it or forgot. Can confirm this happened to me, and after about 30 seconds I remembered I should have known this already. I imagine for those of you for whom it was fresher, or who had a better memory, it completely changed how you read the book.
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Sep 21, 2019 21:52
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Finished the book. While it is a bummer that the prophet got defeated off screen I got a big smile when it was said a “demon“ beat him. Though it didn't confirm his death so he'll probably pop back up. I enjoyed the book, but I was disappointed that once again we had a war in the North. I'm trying to figure out which of the main characters is going to cause trouble for Bayaz and I'm rooting for Vick leading the Revolution and bringing things crashing down.
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Sep 21, 2019 23:08
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The owl is Rikke. Owls are a symbol of the feminine occult and of foreknowledge; also she's 'blessed of the moon' and her physical description is literally owl-like with big eyes and a painted face. Anyone got a good theory on who Clover is? I thought it was obviously Logen initially but having finished the book I'm not so sure. He’s clearly somebody known to the reader as all the older and wiser Northmen and Yoru all pretty much wink directly at the reader with the ‘this guy is more than he seems’ stuff. We know Clover is a pseudonym and he previously went by Jonas Steepfield. He’s clearly a northerner but Steepfield isn’t a very northern name; however, it does fit someone from the Far Country. Yoru’s bit calling him ‘Jonas’ by accident reads like a he’s just blown him up accidentally but it can also be read as a coded way of saying ‘I know who you really are’ without giving it away to anyone else which seems much more like a thing Yoru would do. Say just enough to convey what you mean without clueing anyone else in on what you know. Likewise, the name Jonas Steepfield is described as "sticking in him like a splinter"; again as above could be read both ways but seems more apt for an external thing he's picked up rather than a suppressed part of himself. All of this says Logen to me. But on the other hand… Shivers has real contempt for him in a way that doesn’t fit their relationship post-Red Country. The way he turns on Wonderful so callously again doesn’t seem to fit Logen when we last saw him. Finally, you’d think at least some of the younger chars would put 2+2 together when a bloke with nine fingers is ambling about and all the older named men are intimidated by him. But if not Logen, who? Also as regards Rikke’s prophecies… 100% we’re being set up for a fall here; the lamb beats the lion beats the wolf stuff is far too obvious when you have a char literally called Leo and another referred to as the lamb etc. Joe isn’t always the best writer but he’s a lot better than that; we’re being gulled into a rug pull on poor Rikke at the end of the trilogy. Rustybear fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 13:36
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Rustybear posted:The owl is Rikke. Owls are a symbol of the feminine occult and of foreknowledge; also she's 'blessed of the moon' and her physical description is literally owl-like with big eyes and a painted face. I never got an impression that Clover is someone we, the readers, knew before. His story seems relatively simple: he used to be a fearsome swordsman and reveled in this fame, until he lost a duel in the Circle and barely survived. This changed him completely, to the point where he took another name that would remind him of his defeat. From this point, he avoids needless and (above all) fair fights. He dislikes his old name because using it would encourage wannabe Bloody-Nines to duel him. Certainly he isn't Logen: he looks completely different, doesn't lack a finger and nobody, including Calder, recognizes him. Also, he behaves completely unlike Ninefingers: the whole reason why the latter holed up in the Near Country, because he couldn't do what Clover did. Logen loved his infamy, being able to scare everyone into doing what he wanted and killing those that would lose him. He managed to pretend to be a coward before the events of Red Country, but didn't like that one bit and felt relief when Ro and Pit were kidnapped, because he had a pretext to get back to his previous life. He left Shy and her family, because he realized he can never be a person they would be safe with. If anything, Cover is a successful counterpart of the Bloody Nine –a man who successfully changed himself (not necessarily for better, though).
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Sep 23, 2019 14:29
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Rustybear posted:Anyone got a good theory on who Clover is? Nothing about him points to him being Logen, or even a named character from the previous books. At some point he lists off his former masters which I don't remember specifically but it said he used to work for one of Dow's war chiefs when he was king. He "lost everything in the circle", too. Only people I can ever recall fighting in the circle lost to Logen, other than Calder. As far as I'm concerned, I want it to beloved character from the previous books, but Jonas Steepfield is just some previously unknown Northman who was reckoned a famous warrior.
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Sep 23, 2019 14:37
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Didn't he say he held a shield in one of the big duels we read in a previous book or am I already misremembering?
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Sep 23, 2019 15:14
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He was at the Bloody Nine/Fenris the Feared showdown... but it's strongly implied everyone in the north including unborn babies held a shield at that duel. I know people are gonna say relax he's just a new guy but they way Joe keeps repeatedly teasing the reader just makes me think there's more here than he's letting on. He's clearly well known to Shivers and it just seems like a weird beat to have Caul Shivers (the hardest bastard in the North) be so clearly afraid of some old guy the readers never heard of before. Is Dow definitely dead? Dow would fit.
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Sep 23, 2019 15:28
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Rustybear posted:Is Dow definitely dead? Dow would fit. Got his skull split open iirc. But it’s a fantasy series so I guess that still doesn’t take him off the table for 100% sure E: Guess I should have spoilered this for anyone still working their way through the older books, sorry. Spoilers for The Heroes specifically, regarding a major character from the original trilogy. Punished Chuck fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 15:50
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Rustybear posted:He was at the Bloody Nine/Fenris the Feared showdown... but it's strongly implied everyone in the north including unborn babies held a shield at that duel. Pretty sure it was said he was 18 years old at the time of the B9/Fenris duel. And Dow definitely wouldn't fit. Unless he used to go by the name Jonas Steepfield which would be pretty strange. Unless Calder would let Dow live and ask him for help with guiding his son to be level headed. Nobody fits unless by some off chance it's Beck somehow. Actually maybe it's Beck. He would have met Wonderful, Shivers, and Calder during the events of The Heroes. Except Beck didn't leave the farm until The Heroes so he couldn't have held a shield at the B9/Fenris duel. I DON'T KNOW Suxpool fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 15:50
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Rustybear posted:The owl is Rikke. Owls are a symbol of the feminine occult and of foreknowledge; also she's 'blessed of the moon' and her physical description is literally owl-like with big eyes and a painted face. I don’t think it can be Logen. First, Logen has some pretty specific physical traits that are really hard to miss (like having 9 fingers); furthermore, Logen just from a character perspective, seems really unlikely to murder Wonderful. In fact, he seems more likely to have tried to fight the entire room of younger men who’d just murdered a king than to kill wonderful.
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Sep 23, 2019 16:52
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Rustybear posted:He was at the Bloody Nine/Fenris the Feared showdown... but it's strongly implied everyone in the north including unborn babies held a shield at that duel. abercrombie isn't teasing readers, he's establishing clover as someone who has a Name and used to be a bigshot (or at least a midshot) but got his head screwed on the right way after fighting in the circle and now he avoids the battles etc but is still not to be hosed with (clearly for those who know him from the steep field days, and not so clearly for the new breed of northmen) this is just going overboard with "everything is a mystery!", which is something that happens when you have prophecies and callbacks to earlier books like what's going on in the first law universe by the way, how would black dow fit? you mean the former ruler of the northmen is walking around pretending to be this other guy and black calder, scale, shivers, all these other guys are just going "well hey there buddy" it's like obama going incognito as a white house intern and shivers having a friendly chat with logen is ridiculous
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Sep 23, 2019 17:41
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Suxpool posted:Pretty sure it was said he was 18 years old at the time of the B9/Fenris duel. And Dow definitely wouldn't fit. Unless he used to go by the name Jonas Steepfield which would be pretty strange. Unless Calder would let Dow live and ask him for help with guiding his son to be level headed. Beck wasn't even 18 during the events of The Heroes. The duel was long before that.
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Sep 23, 2019 17:43
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Is suspect that owl represents Bayaz. Owls, in addition to representing wisdom, are also linked in many mythologies to magical familiars. On top of that, it fits thematically somewhat given that Bayaz is both the puller of strings, and—at least so far—is unbeatable. That being said I have a feeling we have not seen the last of the prophet. It does not make a whole lot of sense to have him “defeated” off stage. It makes more sense that he has just abandoned his first approach to fighting Bayaz, which was using the Gurkish Empire as a counter state to the Union.
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Sep 23, 2019 18:03
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ZombieLenin posted:That being said I have a feeling we have not seen the last of the prophet. It does not make a whole lot of sense to have him “defeated” off stage. It makes more sense that he has just abandoned his first approach to fighting Bayaz, which was using the Gurkish Empire as a counter state to the Union. Assuming the uprising wasn’t another false flag I assume the Weaver was either him or the guy who was helping Monza. I half suspect that Savine’s assistant’s brothers at the end are Eaters if she isn’t one herself.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:20
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ZombieLenin posted:Is suspect that owl represents Bayaz. Owls, in addition to representing wisdom, are also linked in many mythologies to magical familiars. I haven't been able to talk myself one way or the other into Khalul being dead. It's lovely to have it happen off-screen, but I also can't see Cawneil and Zacharus starting poo poo with Bayaz while Khalul's still around. Uthman's 100% dead to Ferro, and who knows what Eaters are left. My hot-take prediction for this trilogy is Yoru has turned on Bayaz, and is/was The Weaver. He did the whole peasant rebellion thing once before in Hanged, and with Khalul missing it's likely that Yoru Sulfur is the most dangerous Magi/Eater around. Ethiser posted:Assuming the uprising wasn’t another false flag I assume the Weaver was either him or the guy who was helping Monza. Weaver doesn't seem like Shenkt's style, nor do I imagine Monza would bother loving with Angland. It's Sulfur. I really don't want Zuri and her bros to be Eaters, but it is very likely. How many Gurkish women have we met who aren't Eaters? Greenlit fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Sep 23, 2019 |
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Sep 23, 2019 20:20
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Greenlit posted:Weaver doesn't seem like Shenkt's style, nor do I imagine Monza would bother loving with Angland. It's Sulfur. I really don't want Zuri and her bros to be Eaters, but it is very likely. How many Gurkish women have we met who aren't Eaters? That city wasn’t in Angland, it was somewhat close to the capital, unless you’re talking about something else. I don’t either because it plays into a don’t trust immigrants message, but someone has to be a secret Eater.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:30
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Greenlit posted:with Khalul missing it's likely that Yoru Sulfur is the most dangerous Magi/Eater around. I'm iffy on this one, simply because Monza is still around and that implies that Bayaz/Sulfur/Valint&Balk have not hosed around with her, and the only reason I can see for that after the events of Best Served Cold is that they do not want to gently caress with Shenkt.
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Sep 23, 2019 20:52
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Khizan posted:I'm iffy on this one, simply because Monza is still around and that implies that Bayaz/Sulfur/Valint&Balk have not hosed around with her, and the only reason I can see for that after the events of Best Served Cold is that they do not want to gently caress with Shenkt. Wasn't it mentioned that the Union is deeply in debt to Valint & Balk in no small part due to the Styrian wars?
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Sep 23, 2019 21:05
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Khizan posted:I'm iffy on this one, simply because Monza is still around and that implies that Bayaz/Sulfur/Valint&Balk have not hosed around with her, and the only reason I can see for that after the events of Best Served Cold is that they do not want to gently caress with Shenkt. I’m assuming the Magi are the real causes for the Union’s wars with Styria. The wars where they lost twice and and stalemated once. So they tried to gently caress with her, but couldn’t manage to succeed.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:08
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The only mystery I think is relevant regarding Clover is who he fought and lost to in the Circle, a detail I feel was very conspicuously omitted. Otherwise I don't think he's anyone we are supposed to already know of. Regarding the rest, I think Bayaz is the Weaver (the prophecy of the Weaver being a bald man with endless pockets fits Bayaz too well) but I can't make much sense of what his plan may be. The Valbeck uprising has obvious parallels to the Tanner situation in LAoK but the way this situation is executed makes it difficult to sort out the end goal. Without rereading I'm not sure how he could have ensured Orso would show up to settle the revolt, and if Orso isn't involved I'm not sure what the uprising would have accomplished. However, I do very much think Bayaz was involved (and at least at the moment Sulfur is loyal to him). The timing of Bayaz showing up in the story and Jezal dying is a big giveaway and if it wasn't already clear enough his "long live the king" line to Orso seals the deal. So Bayaz wants Oros to be the king and wants the general public to dislike Orso... but why? Then there's Leo and how he fits in. Sulfur was hanging around in the North and wherever Sulfur is we can be sure Bayaz is meddling. But if Sulfur acted directly in that situation I can't think of how, beyond possibly messing with Rikke's visions. Did Sulfur influence the duel somehow? Not in the same way Bayaz influenced Jezal vs Gorst. When I do a reread I'll be paying careful attention to where and when Sulfur shows up. Finally, the end of LAoK made me think Pike was going to be Glokta's man first and foremost, but I definitely got "tying up loose ends" vibes from Pike interrupting Vick's interrogation of Malmer, and I find it hard to believe Glokta would have allowed his daughter to visit a city where he was directly planning an uprising. So this makes me think Pike is working with/for Bayaz. My only real complaint with this book is that it ended on such a huge cliffhanger! But at least it's only a year until the next book.
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Sep 23, 2019 21:58
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The new audiobook is reserved for the next 9 weeks at my library, which gives me enough time to listen to at least the entire First Law Trilogy before getting to it.
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Sep 23, 2019 22:50
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I read the whole book waiting for Vict to acknowledge Pike as her adopted father, before remembering that he was Salem Rews, not Sepp de Teufel. Where's Cathil? No way is Khalul dead, Gurkhul is not just done off screen, I don't believe that. I did also got the sense that clover was someone we knew. It'd be pretty funny to list all the names of people claiming to have held shields for the duel with Fenris, like West and Pike were both there in addition to what feels like a dozen northmen. It's fine if he's just a new character but there's certainly something he's not saying. Maybe he's Fenris himself, free of glustrod's demon magic. Also Brint made an appearance, and stranger come knocking, Bayaz's man, is dead.... Where's Aliz? 
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Sep 23, 2019 22:59
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The Ninth Layer posted:Regarding the rest, I think Bayaz is the Weaver (the prophecy of the Weaver being a bald man with endless pockets fits Bayaz too well) but I can't make much sense of what his plan may be. The Valbeck uprising has obvious parallels to the Tanner situation in LAoK but the way this situation is executed makes it difficult to sort out the end goal. Without rereading I'm not sure how he could have ensured Orso would show up to settle the revolt, and if Orso isn't involved I'm not sure what the uprising would have accomplished. Orso didn't have to be maneuvered, he spoke about his desire to fight with Angland to pretty much everybody in the Closed Council. After his regiment was formed, it was the only one anywhere near to successfully quell the uprising. It seems, however, that Savine was Risineu's target. He waited with the revolt until she was there, started the riots before she could leave the city and completely lost interest in the rebellion after it was clear she's not among the prisoners. Given Zuri's conspicuous absence, she may have known something is going to happen. Greenlit posted:Weaver doesn't seem like Shenkt's style, nor do I imagine Monza would bother loving with Angland. It's Sulfur. I really don't want Zuri and her bros to be Eaters, but it is very likely. How many Gurkish women have we met who aren't Eaters? Zuri probably is an Eater, too many things point her as one of them:
When Leo brings up the possibility of Gurkish refugees being Eaters, Orso tells him that servants of Khalul can change their looks, so a white face would be a better disguise. This is true, but he is mistaken about one thing: most Eaters can't do this. There were two murderous shapeshifters in the First Law Trilogy: Tolomei (who wasn't an Eater at all) and Yoru Sulfur (who learned this skill independently of his Eater career). Yulwei claimed this power comes from the Other Side, or at least Glustrod and his legions liked to use it. The only actual Eater agent we saw, Shickel, didn't change her appearance when infiltrating Dagoska, which could have helped her to flee the Inquisition.
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Sep 23, 2019 23:09
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The Ninth Layer posted:I think Bayaz is the Weaver (the prophecy of the Weaver being a bald man with endless pockets fits Bayaz too well) but I can't make much sense of what his plan may be. The Valbeck uprising has obvious parallels to the Tanner situation in LAoK but the way this situation is executed makes it difficult to sort out the end goal. Without rereading I'm not sure how he could have ensured Orso would show up to settle the revolt, and if Orso isn't involved I'm not sure what the uprising would have accomplished. Yeah, based on that prophecy the Weaver is 100% Bayaz. He’s engineering a massive crisis, and I think that’s why he wanted the Burners to seize Savine. Glokta might be on in it (with Bayaz promising Savine won’t be harmed), or perhaps not. Right now, the Union is like pre-revolutionary France. Kings and governments are impotent because old nobles still assert their privileges and control huge amounts of the nations’ wealth. The Revolution shattered the old order and broke an entire social class’s power, but just a few years later, an absolute monarch (Napoleon) was ruling, with far more absolute power than any previous king. In a way, Savine is a perfect ruler in Bayaz’s eyes- Jezal’s firstborn, Glokta’s heir, and a smart, ruthless, business-savvy CEO-type. He could kidnap her, use the revolution to break the nobles, have Orso as an impotent bitch unable to fix things, then present Savine for the reactionary conservatives to rally behind, and crush the revolutionaries. Plus, this weeds out anyone with revolutionary sentiment in the population. Then Bayaz could use Savine to set up even better, self-perpetuating tools to crush the serfs (corporations) and turbocharge industrialization, with no more troublesome nobles to get in the way. And what better pretense for a huge reordering of society and consolidation of power than a near-collapse?
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Sep 24, 2019 04:01
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I read the whole book waiting for Vict to acknowledge Pike as her adopted father, before remembering that he was Salem Rews, not Sepp de Teufel. Where's Cathil? Cathil died in book 2 of the original trilogy (I think). She took a flathead arrow when she was running with the Dirty Dozen, and was buried next to Threetrees. Clover is almost certainly nobody as he was 18 when he held a shield in the B9/Fenris duel. As to who he lost to in the circle, maybe Shivers himself. Imagine if the Union just had the sense to be like "yo we're sending Bremer Dan Gorst to fight for us in the circle" every time the North decided they had beef. No more beef. Suxpool fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Sep 24, 2019 07:30
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Suxpool posted:Cathil died in book 2 of the original trilogy (I think). She took a flathead arrow when she was running with the Dirty Dozen, and was buried next to Threetrees.
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Sep 24, 2019 07:31
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