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Tunzie posted:Sanderson himself said he thinks Kelsier would be a villain in another story: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e9702 Isn't that comparison a bit faulty? Kaladin's "darkness" is better described as depression. It's the total opposite of Kelsier in that Kaladin cares far too much about everyone and everything to really function in a setting that demands he kill and fight. He has to delude himself into thinking it's Us vs. Them which is very different from Kelsier who genuinely believes in Us vs. Them. Like most of the rest of the crew, by the way, at least in TFE.
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Apr 3, 2020 06:02
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NikkolasKing posted:Isn't that comparison a bit faulty? Kaladin's "darkness" is better described as depression. It's the total opposite of Kelsier in that Kaladin cares far too much about everyone and everything to really function in a setting that demands he kill and fight. He has to delude himself into thinking it's Us vs. Them which is very different from Kelsier who genuinely believes in Us vs. Them. Since Kelsier's story is obviously not over, we will see how he behaves when he's facing different circumstances. It's one of the reasons why I would have preferred getting Lost Metal before Rhythm of War, since I guess Kelsier will actually be much more involved in that story. We'll see whether he stays on the side of "good" going forward. Torrannor fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Nov 7, 2020 |
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Apr 3, 2020 06:15
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I kind of have my own hopes/expectations that kelsier keeps pushing the envelope how Brandon describes him, and ends up, if not a villian, than a faux hero who is just as likely to gently caress things up as save the day. Kind of like a child pretending to be Hoid and emulating what he's seen with an immense ego and narcisism thats slowly grown out of control in the past few hundred years. Without all the composure and drive of Hoid to keep it in check
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Apr 3, 2020 06:26
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Torrannor posted:Since Kelsier's story is obviously not over, we will see how he behaves when he's facing different circumstances. It's one of the reasons why I would have preferred getting Lost Metal before Rythm of War, since I guess Kelsier will actually be much more involved in that story. We'll see whether he stays on the side of "good" going forward. I really need to read Arcanum Unbounded. I bought it a year ago but just never got around to it. Maybe afte rI finish going through Mistborn again. And as long as we're diagnosing our heroes with real mental disorders, does Kaladin actually have like clinical depression? I got the feeling there was significnatly more wrong with him than Kelsier insofar as Kaladin can barely function a good deal of teh time.
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Apr 3, 2020 06:26
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NikkolasKing posted:does Kaladin actually have like clinical depression?
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Apr 3, 2020 06:38
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Re: Kelsier - there's a strong parallel in Miles in Alloy of Law. Wax specifically thinks about Miles in context of TFE and wonders whether Miles would have been a hero if he had been born then.
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Apr 3, 2020 07:26
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Patware posted:Holy poo poo there is a difference between "smart" and "educated" quote:This work inspired neuroscientists to ask a new question: Does poverty impact brain development?
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Apr 3, 2020 13:32
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NikkolasKing posted:I really need to read Arcanum Unbounded. I bought it a year ago but just never got around to it. Maybe afte rI finish going through Mistborn again. That's clinical depression, mang As a former sufferer of the condition, there were days where just getting up seemed like an impossible amount of effort, and just rolling over to get more comfortable took a few minutes mustering of what little willpower I had left Unlike Kaladin I didn't even have the excuse of slavery and injustice or loneliness or friends dying, my brain was just broken for no reason. Some chemicals fixed that right up though.
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Apr 3, 2020 16:26
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Also didn’t the Lord Ruler create/alter the Ska to be more fertile, more docile and less intelligent, just as he altered the ruling class to be less fertile? Which is why Kelsier crew are almost all half breeds. Stuff I imagine Sazed rolled back when he got his abilities, I know he made snapping “easier” and I doubt he’d be cool with a designed underclass.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:07
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The amount of people I know that grew up in poverty and also have anxiety disorders in adulthood is almost 100%.
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Apr 3, 2020 20:29
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If we are talking about alternate takes, Moash's arc so far would absolutely make him the hero if he were the protagonist. The only reason the Alethi nobility seems heroic is that they get all the PoV time.
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Apr 4, 2020 00:25
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Tunicate posted:If we are talking about alternate takes, Moash's arc so far would absolutely make him the hero if he were the protagonist. The only reason the Alethi nobility seems heroic is that they get all the PoV time. Sanderson is very big on seeing people as individuals and respecting individual dignity. It's why I'm surprised this forum of all places is so hostile to Kelsier killing some nobles and not feeling bad about it. (even though his position on the nobility did change as seen by him rescuing Elend and also changing his plans for Vin so she didn't have to murder nobles) This forum which is littered with guillotine memes. But Sanderson has no interest in that. However righteous you are, if you hate a group of people, you are absolutely in the wrong. That has been absolutely true for both TSA and Mistborn in my experience and I would assume it holds true for his other works. A big difference between ASOIAF and Sanderson's everything in my experience is Sanderson wears his morality so much more on his sleeve than Martin. I couldn't tell you who Martin was rooting for or what type of ethical system he held. Sanderson? It's like BioWare levels of "this is what you ought to believe." NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 01:20
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Oh I at least am not hostile to Kelsier at all. Great ideas, great focus, great execution. Did the right thing. Still a sociopath.
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Apr 4, 2020 02:45
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Yeah, Kelsier is a monster, but he's our monster, and we're intended to root for him.
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Apr 4, 2020 07:25
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NikkolasKing posted:Sanderson is very big on seeing people as individuals and respecting individual dignity. I mean, Elhokar hated the parshendi enough that he genocided them, and he gets a narrative pass
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Apr 4, 2020 08:24
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Tunicate posted:If we are talking about alternate takes, Moash's arc so far would absolutely make him the hero if he were the protagonist. The only reason the Alethi nobility seems heroic is that they get all the PoV time. I dunno, murdering defenceless heralds isn't going to come off as heroic under any light.
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Apr 4, 2020 12:00
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Tunicate posted:I mean, Elhokar hated the parshendi enough that he genocided them, and he gets a narrative pass Hm. I don't know if I agree with that. He launched a justified war against them but then lost all control of the situation. The fight with the Parshendi became all about the gemheart game. I think it's made clear that Elhokar had no real power and nobody really listened to him in the books. Also remember, in one of the first battles on the Plains, Sadeas murdered Parshendi who tried to surrender. Apparently none of the other High Princes knew about this but it convinced the Parshendi that quarter was not an option with any of them. I think, honestly, that Elhokar was too stupid and powerless to really be blamed for the Parshendi being wiped out. I don't think he cares about them at all by the time of the books.
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Apr 4, 2020 15:11
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There's a flashback in Oathbringer right after Gavilar's death, where Elhokar sets the goal of the war - and it's to wipe out the parshendi race. When he loses control of his highprinces, it's because they became less interested in slaughtering for vengeance, and more interested in slaughtering for valuable gems But yeah they're fantasy mongols, there's a reason nobody trusts them. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Apr 4, 2020 |
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Apr 4, 2020 17:04
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Tunicate posted:There's a flashback in Oathbringer right after Gavilar's death, where Elhokar sets the goal of the war - and it's to wipe out the parshendi race. When he loses control of his highprinces, it's because they became less interested in slaughtering for vengeance, and more interested in slaughtering for valuable gems Is that really the real life inspiration for the Alethi? I'm not that great with history in this are. I figured the Azish are supposed to be Chinese but that's all I got. Reminds me a bit of when I first read ASOIAF and people had to explain the real life basis for most of the cultures in the setting. I don't have a clue what inspired the various societies we see in Roshar.
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Apr 5, 2020 14:52
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I can't say I saw Keliser as a sociopath, just a man that was very broken by life.
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Apr 5, 2020 17:15
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His Divine Shadow posted:I can't say I saw Keliser as a sociopath, just a man that was very broken by life. Same. A sociopath shouldn’t be able to feel empathy. Kel is narcissistic and can be cruel, but in my mind that just makes him human.
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Apr 6, 2020 15:31
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Kelsier is less a sociopath than someone suffering from tremendous PTSD and a life of war.
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Apr 6, 2020 16:39
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Some internet people like using "sociopath" for anyone is personally lovely or subscribes to a lovely belief system. Being incredibly ruthless and lovely towards a certain class of people doesn't mean you can't feel empathy towards others in general. People being tribalistic and not giving a poo poo about the other tribe being hurt/killed has been a pretty common thing throughout history, that doesn't mean a large minority or even majority of people have been literal sociopaths.
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Apr 6, 2020 18:09
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I wonder if having Sanderson involved with the Wheel of Time show will give him a chance to redo his handling of Padan Fain. I know he mentioned regretting his handling of the character in hindsight
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Apr 6, 2020 21:23
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DarkHorse posted:I wonder if having Sanderson involved with the Wheel of Time show will give him a chance to redo his handling of Padan Fain. I know he mentioned regretting his handling of the character in hindsight i was listening to some interview with him the other day and he described himself as basically a beta reader for the scripts -- like they send them to him, he sends them back with comments, then he has no real idea what if any of his suggestions are accepted
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Apr 6, 2020 21:47
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DarkHorse posted:I wonder if having Sanderson involved with the Wheel of Time show will give him a chance to redo his handling of Padan Fain. I know he mentioned regretting his handling of the character in hindsight One of the things he mentioned was that working on the first WoT book he wasn't allowed to have beta readers, and there were a lot of things he'd have caught if he had them (later books he managed to argue them into letting him have a group)
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Apr 6, 2020 23:02
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Did he ever say what he/Jordan wanted to do with Fain? I'm a bit critical of the series, but that character especially ended up being one giant wet fart.
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Apr 6, 2020 23:59
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it's been a while since I read WoT but I feel like Padan Fain was just the worst boogeyman. Like anytime he couldn't think of a character that would make sense doing <insert bad thing>, he just dumped it on Fain. Like okay, he starts off a Darkfriend, gets the dagger and kind merges with or gets taken over by Mashadar, and then ??? has a bunch of random evil plots that never work or matter? Did he ever do anything meaningful other than occasionally harass main characters and be scary? I just remember he'd pop up and be like "it was me doing this bad thing the whole time muahahaha" and then get hosed up and run or die like a bitch. I'm definitely misremembering things but that's my poorly remembered version and is fine. I've tried to reread the series like six times and I just stall out at the beginning of Dragon Reborn. Rand's not the only one who gets bored waiting for Moiraine to take them out of the mountains
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Apr 7, 2020 00:56
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Sab669 posted:Did he ever say what he/Jordan wanted to do with Fain? I'm a bit critical of the series, but that character especially ended up being one giant wet fart. From what I recall, Jordan's notes didn't actually say what the plan was for Fain. I think the only thing in there was stuff he didn't want Fain to do, namely he didn't want something where Rand kills the Dark One, then Fain falls through the Bore and becomes the new DO. I guess that was a popular theory he specifically denied in his notes. It kind of sounds like Jordan genuinely had no idea what to do with Fain either, so Sanderson had to just wing it.
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Apr 7, 2020 08:18
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So I recently discovered Sanderson's work, starting with Skyward, and I've just finished Bands of Mourning. What should I read next?
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Apr 7, 2020 09:47
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Anshu posted:So I recently discovered Sanderson's work, starting with Skyward, and I've just finished Bands of Mourning. What should I read next? I take it you read all currently released Mistborn books? I might suggest Arcanum Unbounded since it contains some important side stories that elaborate on other things happening in the setting. After that, The Stormlight Archive seems the natural choice. It's his masterwork from all I've heard from more long time fans than me. A minor comment, though. A big difference between Mistborn and TSA that I noticed in my current reread is the latter is much, much less gritty. TSA might be compared to A Song of Ice and Fire more but Mistborn is much more like ASOIAF in the levels of violence and rape. You won't see stuff like this in TSA: quote:Interesting, Vin thought, picking her way through shattered furniture, stepping clear of blood pools, making her way to Kelsier’s side. He crouched beside a pair of corpses. One, Vin noticed in a moment of shock, had been Ulef. The boy’s face was contorted and pained, the front of his chest a mass of broken bones and ripped flesh—as if someone had forcibly torn the rib cage apart with his hands. Vin shivered, looking away. Stormlight Archive is a bit like ASOIAF in that it starts as a "low" fantasy setting but the magic steadily comes back. But things are never as dark as they were in Mistborn if that matters to you at all. There's also a helluva lot more going on. There is so much to remember, more than happened in the entire Mistborn Trilogy. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 7, 2020 09:59
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Anshu posted:So I recently discovered Sanderson's work, starting with Skyward, and I've just finished Bands of Mourning. What should I read next? I am assuming you read all the other Mistborn books before Bands of Mourning too? If not then that is definitely the next step. There are a couple more entry points you can take: Warbreaker is standalone and I think available for free as an ebook on Sanderson's website. "Standalone" is relative because all of his fantasy books tie in to the same underlying cosmology, but Warbreaker doesn't depend on that. Elantris is also pretty standalone but it has a novella set in the same world (The Emperor's Soul) and a planned sequel. It is an earlier work and I think it's a little rougher. Eventually you'll want to get into The Stormlight Archive (first book: Way of Kings) which is a planned series of 10 books but only 3 are completed. This series gets much more into the interconnected cosmology. Some of the references to other books are more subtle than others, ranging from "blink and you'll miss this cameo" to "this chapter is incomprehensible if you haven't read the wiki".
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Apr 7, 2020 10:09
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NikkolasKing posted:I take it you read all currently released Mistborn boos? wizzardstaff posted:I am assuming you read all the other Mistborn books before Bands of Mourning too? If not then that is definitely the next step. The two main trilogies, yes. I haven't yet read any of the side stories like Secret History. (Was it supposed to be a twist reveal that the "Lord Ruler" had actually been Kelsier? Because I had a feeling almost the whole time. Same thing with the twist in Shadows of Self: as soon as Bleeder was noted to be wearing Lessie's body, I knew what was coming.) I guess I'll look for the Mistborn sidestories, then start on the Stormlight Archive.
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Apr 8, 2020 03:34
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Anshu posted:The two main trilogies, yes. I haven't yet read any of the side stories like Secret History. (Was it supposed to be a twist reveal that the "Lord Ruler" had actually been Kelsier? Because I had a feeling almost the whole time. Same thing with the twist in Shadows of Self: as soon as Bleeder was noted to be wearing Lessie's body, I knew what was coming.) In the trilogies he is very clearly not. The side books don't change that, but they do illuminate a few other things.
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Apr 8, 2020 05:31
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pile of brown posted:In the trilogies he is very clearly not. Actually they show a flashback of the new lord ruler looking down at his arms and seeing scars.
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Apr 8, 2020 06:28
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socialsecurity posted:Actually they show a flashback of the new lord ruler looking down at his arms and seeing scars. And saying only one command: "Survive!"
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Apr 8, 2020 10:55
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Speaking of the Lord Ruler, if I have one criticism of Hero of Ages - which is possibly my favorite Sanderson novel - it is how I feel it whitewashed the Lord Ruler. I just got passed this part for instance: "Fortunately, Cett," Elend said with a raised eyebrow, "the Lord Ruler has proven more altruistic than we might have expected." "Not something I ever thought I'd hear,"Ham noted. "He was emperor," Elend said. "We may not have liked his rule, but I can understand him somewhat. He wasn't spiteful—he wasn't even evil, exactly. He just . . . got carried away." There are all kinds of brutal utilitarian scenarios you can conceive of for Rashek to use to fight Ruin and preserve humanity. But The Final Empire makes Nazi Germany appear efficient and caring. Rashek was always a racist shithead and also became a murderer. His flaws, like his power, were magnified a hundredfold and the result is the Final Empire which was not "what needed to be done' but what Rashek wanted to be done. In the end, Mistborn seems to say times of crises demand compromising certain ideals. But Rashek didn't compromise like Elend did, he was always a bad person and his power made him even worse. Yet HoA wants us to praise his helpfulness? This is not a case of a bad person who did good, it's a case of a bad person who did everything wrong except for 1 or 2 things. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 11:29
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That's exactly what I felt reading that part too. And spiteful would be the best description IMO for his whole world.
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Apr 10, 2020 19:57
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I know some people speculate Hoid might end up being a villain but it seems to me, as I finish Mistborn, that he was the only good one of the group that killed the God and split it up. They were all arrogant fools who thought that it be a grand idea to combine a limited concept with unfathomable power I brought up Sprenn and DA Spirits earlier on but Shards are even worse. What do you think will happen when your entire being is nothing but Hatred or Ruin? Even Harmony, a combination of Preservation and Ruin, is impotent and doubly bound. There is no way for a human to wield a Shard correctly because it's a goddam shard, a piece, a fragment, a thing that is incomplete and flawed. No, I don't know how Hoid's powers work or if it's explained anywhere. He seems to indicate he has no control over some of said powers. But he still seems like the only smart one of the original group. I don't think the guy who comforted Shallan can be some monster. Also why did Vin avoid talking to Hoid in Hero of Ages? She sensed something bad might happen and ducked away and it's never clarified what she sensed.
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Apr 11, 2020 18:40
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I believe that was Ruin acting through her earring.
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Apr 11, 2020 19:08
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