[Mafia] When Mods Collide

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SalTheBard: Jan 26, 2005; I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!; Fallen Rib

I had a conversation about my role with mods because it confused me and I was told that my results would say either "x" or "y" but in my head "Someone is suspicious" was "One person in this group is suspicious"

# ? Jun 7, 2020 13:34

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 17:38

LordNad: Nov 18, 2002; HEY BAD GUYS, THIS IS THE VICE PRESIDENT, PLEASE DON'T KILL HIM!

SalTheBard posted:

Oh wow I just reread what I was told and I missed something very vital.

I get 2 results "there is nobody suspicious" or "there is someone suspicious in this group"

There was confusion on my part with the way the role was originally worded. So yeah it's possible multiple people in my group are scum.

You know this doesn't look good right?

You were so sure.

SalTheBard posted:

I have information, I think the best way to give it is to claim. I'm an even night "group" cop. Basically I pick 3 people and if any of those people are not town I will know. To that end I've been keeping a pretty detailed spreadsheet on this game. There are a handful of people that voted for both Spoonsy D1 and Maigius D2. I picked two of those people (DGK2000 and Dmboogie) and then I picked someone who tried to cuddle me (Nep Nep). The intel I got back is that one of those 3 is Not Town (Full disclosure they could be a 3p or something). So I think those 3 are a good place to start and Maigius if the grave robber is one of those 3 it would be good to know.

SalTheBard posted:

b-minus1 posted:
I suppose it�s possible they�re both scum (nep and dgk).

That is actually not possible

SalTheBard posted:

I mean you can't really "test" my claim hard and fast. I just know that ONE of the Three is Not Town. So it's possible that DGK and Nep are both town and it's actually Dmboogie who is the scumbro, in which case I will look like a filthy liar if DGK flips town.

SalTheBard posted:

Cool. You can believe it or not, I don't care one way or the other. If I picked 3 people I thought were scummy and I got back "All 3 are scum" then you would be like "Hey loving awesome!"

# ? Jun 7, 2020 13:38

LordNad: Nov 18, 2002; HEY BAD GUYS, THIS IS THE VICE PRESIDENT, PLEASE DON'T KILL HIM!

##unvote

We need to discuss how to pursue this.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 13:43

SalTheBard: Jan 26, 2005; I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!; Fallen Rib

Yeah it was me not fully reading things correctly. That is what I get for trying to be helpful :-/

# ? Jun 7, 2020 13:50

Sub Rosa: Jun 9, 2010

It being a standard eccocop instead throws all my spec out of the window, but I'm glad it brought the misunderstanding to light. I'm obviously unfamiliar with eccocops, but now I do feel I beleive the claim.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 13:52

SalTheBard: Jan 26, 2005; I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!; Fallen Rib

LordNad posted:

You know this doesn't look good right?

You were so sure.

It was more an issue from how my role PM was originally worded, which was then clarified more with me yesterday. It wasn't until I read Xopods post that I went back to reread. I guess the good news is that all 3 of them could be scum!

# ? Jun 7, 2020 13:53

Yami Fenrir: Jan 25, 2015; Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

No extension possible, sorry. I discussed it with Amni and it doesn't work because of timezone related issues.

Do remember that cuddling somebody before the deadline is a thing you can do.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 14:23

Mr. Humalong: May 7, 2007

I believe Sal would misread or misinterpret a role PM.

I still think I�d rather vote DGK over Nep today.

##vote DGK

# ? Jun 7, 2020 14:34

Mr. Humalong: May 7, 2007

HOWEVER

I could easily be talked into voting Nep because they both seem scummy to me.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 14:35

Mr. Humalong: May 7, 2007

Excited to see who shows up to get above 10 posts for the day this time around

# ? Jun 7, 2020 14:44

xopods: Oct 26, 2010

Actually, I'll do Sal first because it's obviously pretty important to how we evaluate the three people on his list, or at least what we choose to do about it.

Preview Edit: Ah gently caress, he also changed his claim while I did this? Anyway, doesn't change his earlier-game behavior so here's the reads anyway.

Jokephase stuff, followed by unprompted apology/explanation for absence/skimming
Big post casting varying amounts of shade at Maigius, Andy, Humalong and Spoonsy (all ???). Starts off lightly shading Steak (Scum), but then agrees with his point about Maigius and defends him from Scientastic.
Another big post starting with an apology for absence, then mostly defending Steak and agreeing with him about Spoonsy. Verbally pushes for Maigius but thinks it's not happening D1, so votes Spoonsy.
Reiterates that he's voting Spoonsy because "this is how Steak always plays" and it's going to be one of those two.
"When [sic] the gently caress would we cuddle a lurker?"
Apologizes for not voting Steak, explains that they're friends.
Still wants to murder Maigius.
A third big post in which he continues to shade Maigius, pooh-poohs Andy for thinking Voodoo's hammer was premature, finishes by commenting that he thinks LordNad's claim contained a remarkable amount of information for "seemingly no reason."
Takes a Jose comment about "lurkers" personally even though in context it was mostly about Cpig.
Votes merk (Scum) while still insisting Maigius is best. At the time of this vote it was merk (10) vs. Maigius (8) with 12 to lunch.
D3, no longer thinks Maigius is scummy after merk flip.
Feels there's nothing in his decision to defend because merk flipped Scum, ergo not voting Maigius was pro-Town, so what's the problem?
Ecco Cop claim. Rationale for people chosen is two of them voted for Spoonsy and Maigius, and the third called Sal scum.
Angry that people aren't putting enough weight on his claim, but next post says he doesn't think we must lunch from his list.
Doesn't think it's Nep, but still think Nep's voting for himself (Sal) is weird.
Further apology for not posting more.
Now does think it's Nep again. Even more apologies for lurking, this time saying it's because he has a PR.
Reverses his claim, now it's a standard Ecco Cop, not an "X of 3 players are non-Town" Cop

Gonna break my analysis in two because the claim demands scrutiny on its own.

Analysis - Posting

Defending Steak looks bad without meta, but I think it's null for Sal. He doesn't compartmentalize and sees voting people as an aggressive act that they might take personally. It's consistent that he wouldn't vote for a friend unless he was extremely sure they were scum.

Tunneling on Maigius through D1/D2 is also pretty normal.

The vote for merk while casing Maigius is terrible, however. Sal thinks it should be excused because of Merk's flip, but this is post-hoc rationale from the Town perspective. If Sal's town, he doesn't know that merk is Scum when he's casting that vote. He ostensibly thinks Maigius is scummier, and Maigius was a viable lunch. Going for merk over Maigius only makes sense then if Sal's worried about how merk's flip is going to make him look, which is a scum mind point of view.

There's also a TON of self-consciousness about participation level, even when he's not being called out. I don't want to be a giant hypocrite here because I also tend to make excuses when I'm not posting a lot, but that's because of my meta; people think I'm scum if I'm not posting 1000s of words a day, so I feel like I have to remind them that real life happens. Sal is AFAIK not known as a high-effort player, he's not the worst lurker in this game, and no one was saying "Sal's not posting, that means he's scum," so it's weird that he's got like a half-dozen apologies/excuses for his lack of posting in the span of two pages.

Analysis - Claim

Really a mixed bag here.

Pros

EccoCop is definitely a role Amni would use. (I don't know anything about Yami, so won't mod meta him).
Players misreading role PMs is common and claims that change for this supposed reason tend to be genuine in my experience. Scum tend to try to stick with their initial claim even if they subsequently regret some of the details they chose.
Claimed targets kinda make sense with Sal's view of mafia, and the result seems likely to be correct. That is, if there were no claimed actions and you asked me the odds that at least one of those three players was not Town, I'd say it's better than 50%.
Tunneling on one player and not really doing much other casing while waiting for a chance to use his power is also in line with Sal's preference for night action bingo over conventional scum hunting

Cons

Claim is of little value to Town - as stated above, even without the claim we would be correct to assume a high chance that one of those three players was not Town just based on behavior and probability.
Claim has upside for Scum, in terms of controlling the discussion today.
Claim is extremely hard to verify
Two times, he stressed that he knew HOW MANY non-Town were among the results. This was in response to people believing that he had a standard Ecco Cop. So this wasn't just Sal making an assumption about his role and not questioning it... he corrected two people who thought the opposite.
When he did finally correct himself, it was after people started doubting his claim and his alignment. Double-checking his role PM when people were confused about the results would be pro-Town. Only double-checking when people start suspecting him is pro-Sal.

On those last couple of points, though, this might just be Sal being Sal... I always end up thinking he's scummy because he's prioritizing himself, his friends, etc. over the Town win condition. But that's just how he plays.

Verdict

I think my history with Sal makes it difficult for me to get a proper read here.

Though I think his defending Steak can be excused based on meta, I think there are three very scummy things he's done:

Voting merk when Maigius was close in votes and he ostensibly thought Maigius was worse. This looks like a face-saving play from someone who knows or suspects he knows how merk will flip.
Unprompted self-consciousness for his posting levels. (I don't actually think he's lurking at all... his post count is a little low in terms of numbers, but there's no lack of content to analyze).
Only supposedly double-checking his role and correcting his claim when coming under suspicion, after having insisted on the "wrong" version twice previously.

The problem is all of this is "scummy" because it is consistent with a player whose primary motivation is helping himself, not helping Town. And that's very much along the lines of why I've gone after Sal incorrectly in previous games.

So I'm tempted to say this is consistent with his Town meta. But I don't have a Scum Sal data point to compare it to.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 14:45

MisterJed: May 9, 2004

dmboogie posted:

i protected sand both nights

Why Sandwolf? And why both nights?

# ? Jun 7, 2020 15:18

xopods: Oct 26, 2010

Actually, I just noticed/remembered that the mods are privately prodding everyone who's below the posting threshold every day.

That would explain Sal's self-consciousness about post volume, if he's been below that threshold. So, retract that part.

So, really, the only bad thing about him that I don't think can be explained by meta and/or having his role is voting for Merk at -2 rather than Maigius at -4 when he'd spent two game days calling Maigius scum.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 15:25

Spoonsy: Dec 6, 2005; Yeah, life is hilariously cruel.; Grimey Drawer

I apparently am beneath the lurker line, which is fantastic. The rally went well if anyone cares - the Jon Batiste (Colbert band leader) one

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:06

Spoonsy: Dec 6, 2005; Yeah, life is hilariously cruel.; Grimey Drawer

Given my personal experience of players misreading a role and then a mod thing messing it up (Hi, Andy) I feel Sal�s statement to be true. These things happen. I for one have had an ongoing conversation with both mods about the proper formatting of my echo.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:08

Mr. Humalong: May 7, 2007

I�m working an exceptionally lovely cell block today and probably won�t be around much. Including at deadline. I�ll check in when I can.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:09

xopods: Oct 26, 2010

Spoonsy posted:

Given my personal experience of players misreading a role and then a mod thing messing it up (Hi, Andy) I feel Sal�s statement to be true. These things happen. I for one have had an ongoing conversation with both mods about the proper formatting of my echo.

Yeah, to be clear, I think that's entirely possible and have seen it happen a million times.

The only thing in that regard that gives me pause is the two times other people made the "incorrect" (but actually correct) assumption that he was an Ecco Cop and he corrected them. I feel like the moment that other people are making different assumptions about your role than you are is the time that one normally goes and makes sure they've got it right.

On the other hand, when I ran Corona a couple months ago, Anomalous Amalgam managed to go through two game days of grilling about his role before actually bothering to read the drat thing and realizing he had it wrong.

Having taken some time to digest everything, I think I'm leaning towards believing Sal. It's really just the decision to vote merk that I'm having a hard time squaring with everything else, but on the whole the impression I get is that Sal feels scummy to me but for similar reasons to why he's felt scummy in the past, as Town.

Does anyone know of a game where Sal was scum and was playing what they'd describe as his typical scum game? It'd help if I had that point of comparison, I think.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:15

cheese sandwich: Feb 9, 2009

Hey, something came up w my mom this weekend and in the small amount of time I've had for this I've been pretty overwhelmed with the size of the game. I'm really sorry, I hate feeling like I'm phoning it in

Catching up, I plan to be around all day;

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:16

Spoonsy: Dec 6, 2005; Yeah, life is hilariously cruel.; Grimey Drawer

xopods posted:

Does anyone know of a game where Sal was scum and was playing what they'd describe as his typical scum game? It'd help if I had that point of comparison, I think.

Can�t say I have experience with Sal either way, but it feels like he�s earnest about owning a misread to me

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:19

SalTheBard: Jan 26, 2005; I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!; Fallen Rib

xopods posted:

The only thing in that regard that gives me pause is the two times other people made the "incorrect" (but actually correct) assumption that he was an Ecco Cop and he corrected them. I feel like the moment that other people are making different assumptions about your role than you are is the time that one normally goes and makes sure they've got it right.

I'm not sure what you mean about correcting people about the name of my role.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:21

Mr. Humalong: May 7, 2007

SalTheBard posted:

That is actually not possible

SalTheBard posted:

I mean you can't really "test" my claim hard and fast. I just know that ONE of the Three is Not Town. So it's possible that DGK and Nep are both town and it's actually Dmboogie who is the scumbro, in which case I will look like a filthy liar if DGK flips town.

These are the two times he�s talking about, Sal. It has nothing to do with the name of your role.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:22

xopods: Oct 26, 2010

SalTheBard posted:

I'm not sure what you mean about correcting people about the name of my role.

Not about the name... I know you said your role PM says "Group Cop."

I'm talking about functioning:

"Investigates N players and gets told whether or not the group contains at least one scum/non-town" is what is commonly known in this community as an Ecco Cop.

What you originally described is something different.

So, initially, people were assuming you were an Ecco Cop because that's a somewhat common (or at least well-established) role. You corrected them and explained the way you thought your power worked. Then eventually you corrected yourself and changed your claim to what is, effectively, an Ecco Cop.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:29

xopods: Oct 26, 2010

Quoting this mostly for my own benefit so I'm not forgetting anyone I said I wanted to read carefully, since it's a big game and it's easy to lose track of these things.

Still gonna skip Sci for now because he just posts so much and I have limited time. My D1 scum read still holds though. I'll do Maigius and then if I have time maybe whoever's got the lowest post count of the others.

xopods posted:

Nep-nep
DGK
dmboogie (though I believe he's Town based on his claim)
Scientastic
Maigius
Sandwolf
Rosa
Squiggly
~~Sal~~

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:38

b-minus1: Jul 24, 2008; She's a maniac, maniac
on the floor
And she's dancing like she's never danced before

My gut says Sal misread his results.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:41

DGK2000: May 3, 2007; Hotel Soap is super proud of his little perfumed balls that never get dirty or stinky

I believe Sal misread, not difficult to do with unfamiliar roles.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:47

DGK2000: May 3, 2007; Hotel Soap is super proud of his little perfumed balls that never get dirty or stinky

Anyways I guess I'll claim then. I'm a BP distributor. My first skill is tinkering, using things laying around I am eventually able to create protective vests. This takes two nights, and on the third I can create a vest. The vest itself is my second ability.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:53

cheese sandwich: Feb 9, 2009

Maigius posted:

Claim chart

This is helpful, thank you!

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:57

Mr. Humalong: May 7, 2007

DGK2000 posted:

Anyways I guess I'll claim then. I'm a BP distributor. My first skill is tinkering, using things laying around I am eventually able to create protective vests. This takes two nights, and on the third I can create a vest. The vest itself is my second ability.

Lol what

# ? Jun 7, 2020 16:58

Amnistar: Nov 6, 2008; I am a wizard, not a poet.

It has been brought to my attention that it was unclear at what point posting was counted as you were allowed to post at night. as such, we will NOT be modkilling anyone for a low post count today. For the future, post count is measured from the START of the day, so posting during the night does NOT count towards your post requirement for the day.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:00

Mr. Humalong: May 7, 2007

What the gently caress who is trying to use their nighttime poo poo posts to lurk today? Speak up, coward.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:05

Mr. Humalong: May 7, 2007

Chin trembling I beg the mods to count my posts from night phase, terrified of the mean posters present during the day. How could I ever hope to make ten posts with such bullies looming large in the thread???

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:06

Voodoofly: Jul 3, 2002; Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

DMBOOGIE: strange bodyguard role that kills anyone who targets XX
DGK: creates and sends BP items
Nep Nep: entombed last night (per hum). has Nep Nep claimed anything more?

Per Sal one or more are scum.

I haven't missing anything more right?

Reading those three now since none of you will vote Andy

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:06

Squiggly: Jan 25, 2006; I'm Your Huckleberry

Mr. Humalong posted:

What the gently caress who is trying to use their nighttime poo poo posts to lurk today? Speak up, coward.

CapnAndy is my first thought

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:06

Squiggly: Jan 25, 2006; I'm Your Huckleberry

DGK2000 posted:

I believe Sal misread, not difficult to do with unfamiliar roles.

Your clearly here but participation wise have been avoiding major discussion

Who do you think is scum? Or town?

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:08

xopods: Oct 26, 2010

Maigius

I think in Maig's case it actually makes sense to separate out all claim-related stuff from vote/case-related stuff because his claim came out in so many pieces.

Alignment stuff

Jokephase: "what are the odds I'm scum two games in a row"
No-justification bandwagon on Steak (Scum)
Votes Spoonsy (???) "to avoid NL"
"If I was scum my reaction would be, oh no not again"
Defends switch to Spoonsy (???) as "having lost track of the vote count." Expresses suspicion of merk (Scum)
Claims result on merk.
Refuses to discuss Scientastic (???) at all and possible connection to him and/or merk.
Scum reads on Andy and Sci, both still unflipped
Connects Andy with Spoonsy. Suddenly has a Town read on Merk.
Wishes he could do D2 over. Says he was scared and confused. Didn't out merk immediately because he wanted to give him a chance to prove he was Town.
Finally votes Andy (???), after Voodoofly (???) does.
Back to leaning Scum on merk, though "far behind" Andy and Spoonsy. Also FOS LordNad (???)
D3, wants the grave-disturber to come forward on their own. When they don't, names Sandwolf. Sandwolf confirms, claims "last words gatherer"
Prepares claims list

Setup/claim stuff

Early D1: Soft-claims "interesting" role
Setup spec: "is it worth trying to establish how many people have more than one type of power?"
Setup spec: "how do town magic users get charges?"
Late D1: Soft-claims a "not all that useful" skill.
D2: Claims to bury people and their items. Explains he's claiming because he's scared from the heat he got D1.
Claims his role is to "stop scum from getting items"
Claims the grave being disturbed indicates someone else was grave robbing.
Claims "we" know for sure that someone stole PQ's stuff, later clarifies "why else would you disturb a body?"
Claims result on merk (after FOSing him in previous post)
Finally fullclaims that he's basically a grave watcher.
D3 after some teasing claims Sandwolf visited grave, is corroborated.

Role analysis

Seems basically confirmed, unless he, Sandwolf and merk are all on the same team, which seems unlikely.

Also, given that merk's role was great and Sand's claimed role is poop, I'd say a grave watcher power would seem to have limited usefulness to Scum. Therefore, Maig seems very much Town based on his role.

Behavior analysis

The way he came out with the claim piecemeal, and all the setup spec and stuff seems shady on the surface, but it's consistent with being a confused newbie in his first role madness game. It seemed shady at the time, but now that his role is basically confirmed, it all makes sense to me.

Waffling about merk looks bad. Switching from Steak to Spoonsy for no reason looks bad. However, seems like it could still be explained by being a confused and paranoid newbie. Toal's game was tiny, effectively all-Vanilla, and Maig was Scum and had Hum as his buddy/emotional support animal... for practical purposes this is his first true Mafia experience.

Verdict

Claim checks out and seems pro-Town. Sketchy behavior can be explained by combination of role and being a newbie overwhelmed by a 26-player, role-heavy game.

Would not vote.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:09

Voodoofly: Jul 3, 2002; Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

##vote DMBoogie

He hasn't done poo poo but kill a townie this game.

Seriously he has no content day 1 but a vote on Spoonsy.

Day 2 he wants maigius over merk and basically no other content.

I know he claimed his role but if you know your role kills people who target someone why are you using it in a game where everyone has abilities? Did he ever say why he picked Hambeet?

At best he is someone lurking each game posting no content and openly killing players indiscriminately because he doesn't target who dies. Even in this situation I don't really want him around.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:15

LordNad: Nov 18, 2002; HEY BAD GUYS, THIS IS THE VICE PRESIDENT, PLEASE DON'T KILL HIM!

DGK2000 posted:

Anyways I guess I'll claim then. I'm a BP distributor. My first skill is tinkering, using things laying around I am eventually able to create protective vests. This takes two nights, and on the third I can create a vest. The vest itself is my second ability.

This sounds like a fake claim.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:16

Voodoofly: Jul 3, 2002; Some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help

For what it's worth I probably vote DGK over nep nep right now, but I don't see how Boogie gets caught in that cop claim, admits he has killed a town, has a role that indiscriminately kills and NOBODY is voting him.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:17

DGK2000: May 3, 2007; Hotel Soap is super proud of his little perfumed balls that never get dirty or stinky

Squiggly posted:

Your clearly here but participation wise have been avoiding major discussion

Who do you think is scum? Or town?

Scum- Andy from a case I asked Sci to look at as well as his continued... failure of play, Nep from my case, Binus because he's been around and made like one call, Voodoo because he's playing how I recognize his scumminess.

Town- Sub Rosa, Maigius tentatively, Sandy Wolf due to his play here being the exact opposite of his play in Magic Schoolbus as well as I don't think anything he's said is inherently scummy.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:17

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 17:38

MisterJed: May 9, 2004

Voodoofly posted:

DMBOOGIE: strange bodyguard role that kills anyone who targets XX
DGK: creates and sends BP items
Nep Nep: entombed last night (per hum). has Nep Nep claimed anything more?

Per Sal one or more are scum.

I haven't missing anything more right?

Reading those three now since none of you will vote Andy

That's what I have in my notes too. I don't think Nep Nep has claimed anything more, other than that she didn't visit anyone N1.

# ? Jun 7, 2020 17:17

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