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Is that not how to interpret the bat-fell of Thuringwethil? "skin" maybe
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Dec 13, 2020 19:52
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Yeah, it’s hide or skin and not costume or clothing specifically. Frodo’s orc pants are also made of unclean beast fells or something
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Dec 13, 2020 20:00
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Would the elf forms of the valar be considered fells too, then? They're described as clothing sometimes.
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Dec 13, 2020 20:45
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Not really, the point of the metaphor of clothing is that a physical body isn't integral or necessary to the Ainur in the way it is to the incarnated Children of Illuvatar, and they have a choice of what form to take with none being 'truer' than any other. None of that's really true for any creature's skin.
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Dec 13, 2020 21:00
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Mahoning posted:I always thought a great companion while you read Tolkien (especially first timers) would be a visual guide of landscape features. It’s probably why so many people struggle with his in-depth landscape descriptions. If you don’t know what a dell is, or downs, or a gully or whatever, it is hard to picture. Yes, yes, 1000% yes. I'm having the same problem with KS Robinson's Mars series atm, with all its scarps, arroyos, karsts, pingos, moraines and fellfields. skasion posted:“Fell meats” = steak with ketchup This explains a lot.
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Dec 13, 2020 22:11
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HopperUK posted:This list looks kinda funny to me, I'm guessing because I'm from the UK. 'abide'? 'aghast'? 'amiss'? 'assuage'? Are those words weird in the US?
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Dec 13, 2020 22:18
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So weird skins from the hills would be fell fell-fells.
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Dec 13, 2020 22:18
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skasion posted:Yeah, it’s hide or skin and not costume or clothing specifically. Frodo’s orc pants are also made of unclean beast fells or something German "Fell" = english fur
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Dec 13, 2020 22:19
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sweet geek swag posted:So weird skins from the hills would be fell fell-fells. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=072Nu54avdU
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Dec 13, 2020 22:51
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Tree Bucket posted:Yes, yes, 1000% yes. I'm having the same problem with KS Robinson's Mars series atm, with all its scarps, arroyos, karsts, pingos, moraines and fellfields. I read this series on a kindle and must have used the dictionary function for "karsts" at least a dozen times.
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Dec 14, 2020 01:10
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He was fell, and a little bit fey.
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Dec 14, 2020 19:14
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Stephen R. Donaldson was the first author I got into after getting hooked on Tolkien (which is, uh, maybe not the best place for a middle school kid to branch out to) so my conception of “normal” language never stood a chance. Everything is “fell” this and “verily” that for me.
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Dec 14, 2020 21:34
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I could write a book meticulously ranking the unreliability of various fairies. It will be called Shifty Grades of Fey.
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Dec 14, 2020 21:46
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question: where does falafel fit into all this?
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Dec 14, 2020 22:43
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:question: where does falafel fit into all this? Who is the Middle-Earth equivalent of Bill O'reilly?
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Dec 15, 2020 01:10
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Tree Bucket posted:I love how economical Tolkien's prose can be, even if he's famous for the opposite. Fëanor and his sons were in the van
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Dec 15, 2020 20:13
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Get in losers, we're going kinslaying
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Dec 15, 2020 20:16
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Also I’m still catching up on the thread but I strongly recommend reading the Hobbit aloud. I did it, not for kids but to for an ex, a few years ago and it works so well. The chapters are perfect in length and scope, the prose flows perfectly, and the primary characters’ dialogue lends itself to inventing funny voices for them. We’d get tipsy or high and I’d rear a chapter around once per week and it was just perfect. If I ever have children I’ll certainly do it again.
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Dec 15, 2020 20:28
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Also I’m still catching up on the thread but I strongly recommend reading the Hobbit aloud. I did it, not for kids but to for an ex, a few years ago and it works so well. The chapters are perfect in length and scope, the prose flows perfectly, and the primary characters’ dialogue lends itself to inventing funny voices for them. Yeah, my first 'reading' of The Hobbit was hearing my dad it read aloud to me when I was nine.
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Dec 16, 2020 10:52
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Yeah, that's one of the stronger defenses of Tolkien's prose style. A lot of people criticize Tolkien's prose for being prolix or "unprofessional," but he's not actually trying to be a modern professional Strunk-and-White writer; he's trying to be an updated version of a Saxon (or Anglic) scop. And in that he succeeds, to an amazing degree. Mark Twain talks in his autobiography about how the process of reading his stories on the lecture circuit dramatically changed everything about his writing; just having to read it all aloud meant he re-wrote everything to sound better when read aloud and that made it all much better writing. Tolkien at his best has that same easy oral quality. It isn't "professional" sounding to a modern ear but it has its own virtue all its own.
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Dec 16, 2020 14:38
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Omnomnomnivore posted:I like Rohan, but Book III does mark a pretty noticeable shift in tone. Some of it is just leaving the hobbit perspective, but also Professor T letting his Anglo-Saxon freak flag fly (and combing them with steppe riders). Just these gangs of dudes that want nothing more than to ride into battle and die a glorious death. You could almost excerpt Book III as as standalone story about a group of warriors who help a kingdom defend itself from an evil wizard. Come to think of it, that's not too far off from what Jackson did in the second movie. Tolkien posted:This linguistic procedure does not imply that the Rohirrim closely resembled the ancient English otherwise, in culture or art, in weapons or modes of warfare, except in a general way due to their circumstances: a simpler and more primitive people living in contact with a higher and more venerable culture, and occupying lands that had once been part of its domain.
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Dec 16, 2020 15:38
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The Rohirrim and book 3 as a whole are Tolkien one-upping the 19th century romantic barbarian novel. like William Morris type stuff.
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Dec 16, 2020 15:53
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I like that Tolkien writes characters as actually being smart like Theoden and Denethor. It makes the rampant psychopathy and idiocy of the Sons of Feanor more entertaining when juxtaposed against the Kings of Men. Also I recently found out that the chorus chanting when Theoden recites the Lament of the Rohirrim in the Two Towers are reciting the rest of the poem in Old English and I think that's really cool. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Dec 16, 2020 |
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Dec 16, 2020 16:50
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Arcsquad12 posted:I like that Tolkien writes characters as actually being smart like Theoden and Denethor. It makes the rampant psychopathy and idiocy of the Sons of Feanor more entertaining when juxtaposed against the Kings of Men. Tolkien seems to have a special fondness for the rough but shrewd type of character. Characters like Theoden and Farmer Maggot don't have elven blood or special bloodlines (apart from Theoden being a king anyhow), but they're nevertheless wise and intelligent characters that are courageous. Denethor is a bit different. Tolkien writes about how the blood of Westernesse (Numenor) runs nearly true in him, and that because of that he's especially wise and intelligent. Of course it may be that much of that wisdom is due to the insights the Palantir grants as well.
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Dec 16, 2020 17:08
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"You don’t know much... if you think old Barliman is stupid. He is wise enough on his own ground. He thinks less than he talks, and slower; yet he can see through a brick wall in time."
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Dec 16, 2020 18:31
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Heck, Sam is the same way - a lot more going on there than people give him credit for because he's a servant-class Hobbit instead of a nob (until the epilogue, anyway).
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Dec 16, 2020 18:34
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It's almost like not underestimating people because of their origins is a theme. And it seems clear that all the people who are actually wise make sure to not do this. Even Denethor realizes that Pippin can be of more service than most of his people suspect. Theoden is a little dismissive of Merry, but his concerns are actually legitimate, as Merry isn't really trained for mounted combat. I mean if Theoden knew Merry had a magic wraith killing sword, he might have reconsidered.
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Dec 16, 2020 18:57
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Imagined posted:"You don’t know much... if you think old Barliman is stupid. He is wise enough on his own ground. He thinks less than he talks, and slower; yet he can see through a brick wall in time." And yet Aragorn still talks down to him a bit. I mean nine murderous phantoms from Satan's secretary were on the move and it was pretty serious but Strider was still a bit of a dick.
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Dec 16, 2020 18:58
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Arcsquad12 posted:And yet Aragorn still talks down to him a bit. I mean nine murderous phantoms from Satan's secretary were on the move and it was pretty serious but Strider was still a bit of a dick. Yeah, but Butterbur had absolutely hosed up. The ringwraiths wouldn't have had anything to find if Butterbur had delivered Gandalf's message like he said he would.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:05
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There's also a bit of "truly wise people know their place and stick to it and don't try to get uppity ideas above their station" to Tolkien too, to be fair.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:05
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Arargorn isn’t an uppity Noble in that scene tho I agree he’s just mad at BB for being a dunce.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:07
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Imagined posted:There's also a bit of "truly wise people know their place and stick to it and don't try to get uppity ideas above their station" to Tolkien too, to be fair. Well yeah, he's English.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:09
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sweet geek swag posted:Yeah, but Butterbur had absolutely hosed up. The ringwraiths wouldn't have had anything to find if Butterbur had delivered Gandalf's message like he said he would. No offense, but Gandalf hosed up by leaving Frodo to his own devices right after confirming that it was the ruling ring. Butterbur is a full time innkeeper, while Gandalf is literally an angel with one job.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:11
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He didn’t abandon him. He was going to meet him at Bree.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:13
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euphronius posted:He didn’t abandon him. He was going to meet him at Bree. I did not say "abandon". I said "left to own devices". IIRC there was no set date/time to meet in Bree, and Frodo left the Shire when he realized that welp, Gandalf is not showing. There should have been no messing around, he should have taken Frodo to Rivendell ASAP.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:15
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euphronius posted:He didn’t abandon him. He was going to meet him at Bree. Yeah the idea was to get Frodo out of the Shire all casual-like so that any spies would be less likely to notice that something was afoot
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Dec 16, 2020 19:16
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euphronius posted:He didn’t abandon him. He was going to meet him at Bree. But Gandalf definitely hosed up. One of the Nine is literally at Bag End the moment Frodo leaves for Crickhollow.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:29
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Mahoning posted:But Gandalf definitely hosed up. One of the Nine is literally at Bag End the moment Frodo leaves for Crickhollow. My brain has a hard time dissociating the movies with the books Sticking with the books , Frodo didn’t leave fast enough iirc
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Dec 16, 2020 19:34
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Gandalf's letter, left in July, told Frodo to leave for Rivendell immediately. If Frodo had recieved that letter he would have reached Rivendell at least a month before the Ringwraiths even reached the Shire.
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Dec 16, 2020 19:48
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Hasselblad posted:I did not say "abandon". I said "left to own devices". The professor would be proud of this response. 
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Dec 16, 2020 19:50
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