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I find the Definites are often because of an Engineer scan, so if you can't quite do the full logic it can be pretty simple to narrow down to an educated guess. It's also fun when the last Gnosia's been sussed out to do a round of "you're human, and you're human, and you're..."
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May 26, 2021 00:13
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It's a nice touch that Remnan is apparently so much of a non-presence that his face isn't shown on the screen when he gets killed by the Gnosia. Similarly, it was nice of Setsu to rib Cassidy about blowing up the universe at the start of loop 17. I guess not even the end of everything can get us on Setsu's bad side.
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May 26, 2021 00:15
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Setsu's been playing long enough that they've probably done it too.
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May 26, 2021 02:26
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Going back to the logs from forever ago, a friend and I poked more at them and as near as we can figure the WH means “definite human.” He also noticed a BL in the text which seemed to be a “definite enemy” call. To be fair it’s a guess based on the context clues from the logs, but white and black for “crew” and “enemy” would make sense.
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May 26, 2021 04:12
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Incidentally, does a confirmable AC Follower count as Definite Human, Definite Enemy, or neither?
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May 26, 2021 04:29
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Zyxyz posted:Incidentally, does a confirmable AC Follower count as Definite Human, Definite Enemy, or neither? Definite enemy. It encompasses all lie-capable roles. All the skills are context sensitive in a really smart way. If character X has been caught in a lie, depending on how the chain of logic works the definite enemy skill can stand for "X can't be the engineer/doctor", "X is bug", "X is gnosia", etc. and the text reflects it. By the same token, correctly pointing definite human at someone claiming engineer/doctor will have text saying "X is the true engi/doctor". For another example, if you notice someone has been talking too much or too little compared to their stealth stat, there's not a specific skill to point that out, you just use the basic rear end doubt and it will adapt. There's also a "shut up" special interjection for people talking too much with no skill requirements.
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May 26, 2021 05:19
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Zyxyz posted:Incidentally, does a confirmable AC Follower count as Definite Human, Definite Enemy, or neither? Oddly, both. An AC Follower who lies can be caught as Definite Enemy, but also an AC Follower who is investigated by all claimed Day 1 Engineers can also be flagged Definite Human. It works in both situations anyway: a Definite Enemy AC Follower needs to be voted off in case they're lying because they're Gnosia, and a Definite Human AC Follower doesn't need to be voted off because their elimination isn't required for Human victory. Incidentally, there's no situation where these would switch or intermingle. A claimed role will usually never get Definite Human unless there's no Day 1 counter-claim or all other claimants are proven Definite Enemy. This could never happen for the AC Follower because there's always going to be one real Engineer/Doctor. Thus, an AC Follower with a role claim can never be Definite Human. Conversely, an AC Follower with no role claim can never be Definite Enemy, because they can never give a false report. There's a few edge cases that I haven't actually experienced yet: for example, what if all Day 1 claimed Engineers investigate on successive nights the two Day 1 claimed Doctors, one of whom is an AC Follower? That'd allow both to be Definite Human, but still allow the AC Follower to lie and get caught as Definite Enemy (such as reporting more dead Gnosia than there are in the game). I have no idea what happens then, because even intentionally achieving such a scenario is incredibly difficult; never mind accidentally during play. Mega64 posted:Setsu does get suspicion, but I'm maintaining my strategy. Even if it means I'm supporting the actual Engineer and Doctor over my Gnosia buddies, screw them, I just want to live. This is a great example of what I was gushing about a while back: even knowing that allowing the real Engineer to live is a huge risk to the team, Mega64 goes for the option that he believes increases his own odds of survival even at the cost of the Gnosia chances of victory. The mechanics of the game dictate that the player character has their own irrational plays to make, just like the other weirdos, and it's amazing.
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May 26, 2021 05:21
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Uh, I stand somewhat corrected. I think however you can either only use definite human on a claim if you can fully confirm they're crew or the game (and characters) will acknowledge they still could be AC. E: the game is really loving good at doing the logic chain, there's no way it would let anyone use definite human on a claim without one of those two caveats. An AC follower who isn't fake claiming is way down on the threat list so definite human is fine in that case. Omobono fucked around with this message at 05:35 on May 26, 2021 |
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May 26, 2021 05:30
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Getting both Definite Human and Definite Enemy on an AC that claimed would be Definitely Tricky, but whitelisting one is pretty simple to engineer a situation for. Setup - eng, doc, ga, ac, 1 gnosia D1: Yuriko and myself claim eng, only Gina claims doc, Setsu is frozen N1: Both eng check Remnan, Gina disappears D2: After (conflicting) reports, there's two scenarios: a - if I'm eng, Remnan is gnos and Yuriko is AC. b - if Yuriko is eng, I'm gnos and Remnan is AC. Either way, Yuriko is a Definite Human, and Crew is Definitely Screwed. (Remnan's also a Definite Enemy here, not that it matters.) Edit: Actually, with a Bug and a few more people in the setup, I don't think getting both IDs would be too unreasonable - both you and the AC claim engi D1, you check them N1, then find the Bug on a later night. If they don't check either victim that night, that makes you the true engi and them a DE, but your earlier check also makes them DH. Zero K fucked around with this message at 12:31 on May 26, 2021 |
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May 26, 2021 12:00
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I forget if it's mentioned... is Cold Sleep reversible? So like for a human victory they can pull everyone that's not the Gnosia out of the fridge, leaving only Gnosia victims as actually dead?
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May 26, 2021 12:28
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Zero K posted:Crew is Definitely Screwed. I don't expect AC Yuriko to gently caress this up, but would you believe that I won a loop as a confirmed engineer (confirmed through uncontested double night kill) with a 2 to 1 vote on a confirmed gnosia (confirmed because I investigated them) and the third person there was AC? It was AC Chipie IIRC. And it's not like the AC didn't know I was the true engi, the NPCs called definite engineer on me immediately when the double kill happened. Although the fact that AC can be definite human almost explains a weirdness I've experienced once. Guard duty PC (confirmed), confirmed engineer (double night kill), definite human doctor (engi scan), definite human Shigemichi (engi scan). 6 persons total, 2 gnosia remaining as per the doctor's reports, do the math. Shigemichi argued in gnosia SQ's defense twice in a row  In retrospect, the doctor could have been AC and thus one of the remaining two could have been not gnosia but come on Shigemichi freeze both and call it a day.
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May 26, 2021 12:37
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Junpei posted:I forget if it's mentioned... is Cold Sleep reversible? So like for a human victory they can pull everyone that's not the Gnosia out of the fridge, leaving only Gnosia victims as actually dead? No one seems especially panicked about going into cold sleep, so I think they'd wake up on the other end if the humans win. The only person who treats it like a death sentence is Raqio, who is coming at it more from a "you simpletons, without me the gnosia will slaughter you all" direction.
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May 26, 2021 12:47
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Just a next game suggestion: You're the only Gnosia, but show us what it's like to fake being a Doctor or an Engineer, what inputting fake analyses looks like.
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May 26, 2021 12:54
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Junpei posted:Just a next game suggestion: You're the only Gnosia, but show us what it's like to fake being a Doctor or an Engineer, what inputting fake analyses looks like. I think Mega should hold off on this until Cassidy is a sufficiently convincing liar to avoid getting immediately nailed for giving a false report.
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May 26, 2021 13:08
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I don't know if it'd work but Full crew, 1 Gnosia, playing as AC Follower with no other roles active sounds like an interesting exercise in finding your one ally.
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May 26, 2021 13:29
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You can really screw over your gnosia allies with definite enemy huh? If they claim engineer and say someone is gnosia, then you kill that gnosia claim person overnight that will immediately make someone definite enemy, right?
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May 26, 2021 16:29
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Donkringel posted:You can really screw over your gnosia allies with definite enemy huh? If they claim engineer and say someone is gnosia, then you kill that gnosia claim person overnight that will immediately make someone definite enemy, right? I think someone will need to actually tag them as Definite Enemy for it to count for everyone but logical characters will figure it out anyway. Like Shigemichi, Comet and Kukrushka might not notice the contradiction, and if there's no one smarter left to tell them about the enemy you might get away with it. But if Raqio is around they'll slap down a Definite Enemy so fast their head will spin.
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May 26, 2021 16:55
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There's a lot of characters that have that skill, so my secret pro strat when I can't tell who's the Definite Human the game tells me I can call out is to wait for someone else to it 
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May 26, 2021 17:06
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Tenebrais posted:I think someone will need to actually tag them as Definite Enemy for it to count for everyone but logical characters will figure it out anyway. )
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May 26, 2021 22:57
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Tenebrais posted:I think someone will need to actually tag them as Definite Enemy for it to count for everyone but logical characters will figure it out anyway. I've had a game where I was in danger of being marked as Definite Enemy, but I used the player priority advantage to filibuster my way through the meeting without allowing anyone to tag me as such. Think I still lost that game, but I wasn't frozen immediately
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May 26, 2021 23:16
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so obviously from previous discussion Shigemechi and Comet are horrible Gnosia, Jonas can be good or bad depending on how well he plays, and Yuriko is terrifying as one, but how would you say the rest of the crew plays as Gnosia?
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May 27, 2021 00:44
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Junpei posted:so obviously from previous discussion Shigemechi and Comet are horrible Gnosia, Jonas can be good or bad depending on how well he plays, and Yuriko is terrifying as one, but how would you say the rest of the crew plays as Gnosia? Kukrushka is second only to Yuriko, SQ is difficult but makes dumb mistakes sometimes. Chipie is about as hard as SQ in terms of sussing him out and it doesn't help that my first instinct is to be on his side. Setsu also becomes formidable when their stats get boosted enough. For me, personally, the harder someone is to vote off the harder they are to play against. I had Kukrushka survive 3 rounds after being tagged as Definite Enemy because no one wants to vote for her. Gina can be as bad as Comet and Otome also gets caught lying an awful lot. Raqio gets voted off either way so I never had trouble with them. Jonas has his moments but for the most part he is pretty easy to sus out/get rid of, unless Kukrushka decides he's her ride or die. Kukrushka is loving scary is what I'm trying to say here 
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May 27, 2021 01:34
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(Get hosed, human scum. Kukrushka tells you this with her eyes.)
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May 27, 2021 02:12
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I saw a tweet a few weeks back of a player with Jonas, Shigemichi, and Raqio as their fellow Gnosia, and the comment was "The Gang gets cold slept"
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May 27, 2021 02:34
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what does a frozen Bug register as to a Doctor
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May 27, 2021 05:50
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Raqio's kind of funny, they'll definite Human someone they've counterclaimed. They care more about the logic than actually winning.
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May 27, 2021 05:55
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Junpei posted:what does a frozen Bug register as to a Doctor "Not a Gnosia."
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May 27, 2021 06:24
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So I was curious about the text on the little spinning wheel that shows up on the game's loading screen: It looks to be in Ancient Greek, but I couldn't find any already-existing transcription of it, so here's my own eyeballed attempt: quote:μὴ φόβει μὴ ὕπόπτευε ἠ γνῶσις σώζει τὸν κόσμον Admittedly I can't provide a provably-accurate translation of this myself, but from what I can tell from looking up the individual words, the best attempt I could get out of machine-translation seems to check out: quote:do not be afraid, do not suspect, knowledge saves the world Note that "knowledge" here is, of course, "gnôsis". Wow, that's not ominous at all! 
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May 27, 2021 10:43
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SQ does some really dumb stuff sometimes. In one of my earlier games we had the game in the bag (4 crew left, 2 gnosia. We woulda had 3 but Raqio got voted off Day one with like 9 votes despite having said nothing) and then SQ decides to Doubt the only Doctor claim.  She also ends up a Definite Enemy a lot in my experience. Yami Fenrir fucked around with this message at 11:12 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 11:10
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Zyxyz posted:So I was curious about the text on the little spinning wheel that shows up on the game's loading screen:  (This is from the end of the first loop, where Setsu gives you the key)
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May 27, 2021 15:53
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CHiRAL posted:You mean..? Neat, though!(And now that I'm looking at them together, the "wheel" is just another representation of the key, like the "O" of "GNOSIA" on the title screen, isn't it?)
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May 27, 2021 16:54
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Zyxyz posted:
Greek was a while ago for me, but I think that's a reasonable if very liberal translation. The one part that's maybe interesting is that the Greek text mentions "the knowledge". Greek uses articles in places where English doesn't, so that might just be the closest match, but it might also be referring to some specific secret knowledge that's supposed to save the world. That is a part of some gnostic sects, and I don't doubt that the writers were very aware of that.
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May 27, 2021 17:12
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ultrafilter posted:Greek was a while ago for me, but I think that's a reasonable if very liberal translation. The one part that's maybe interesting is that the Greek text mentions "the knowledge". Greek uses articles in places where English doesn't, so that might just be the closest match, but it might also be referring to some specific secret knowledge that's supposed to save the world. That is a part of some gnostic sects, and I don't doubt that the writers were very aware of that. Worth noting that Setsu's line there isn't a direct translation of the Greek line but rather of the Japanese version of it - and Japanese has no articles, so it can't really mark the distinction between "knowledge" and "the knowledge" that way. So it's a bit of a toss-up whether the article isn't in the English line because it's definitely intended to refer to the concept of knowledge as opposed to specific knowledge, or just because it's translating from Japanese (and the translators probably never saw the Greek line and probably wouldn't have been able to read it if they had). Anyway, re: the "who's a good/bad Gnosia" discussion, while Otome is a bad liar, I find her almost as hard as Kukrushka to get people to vote for (unless enough of them have also spotted her lying). I lost a game that way at one point, where there was one Gnosia left, and I had caught her in a lie so I knew it had to be her (either there was no Bug/AC Follower or I was pretty sure I already knew who they were, I forget), but I spent two or three days trying to get other people to suspect her and they just wouldn't.
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May 27, 2021 22:31
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How good of a Gnosia is Sha-Ming? He's definitely got the stats to survive for a while (excellent stealth, good to great performance and charm, decent charisma) and he's the closest to Mega64 in terms of play style (survival above all else even if it means throwing a fellow Gnosia under the bus).
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May 27, 2021 23:24
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Falconer posted:How good of a Gnosia is Sha-Ming? He's definitely got the stats to survive for a while (excellent stealth, good to great performance and charm, decent charisma) and he's the closest to Mega64 in terms of play style (survival above all else even if it means throwing a fellow Gnosia under the bus). He's not bad. I'd say he's one of the better Gnosia in the game just because of how well he tends to both not stand out while also being able to make accusations.
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May 27, 2021 23:27
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This Thread made me buy the game and am now on loop 90 already o.o
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May 27, 2021 23:35
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Twibbit posted:This Thread made me buy the game and am now on loop 90 already o.o Sounds about right.
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May 27, 2021 23:41
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Ghost Car posted:Worth noting that Setsu's line there isn't a direct translation of the Greek line but rather of the Japanese version of it - and Japanese has no articles, so it can't really mark the distinction between "knowledge" and "the knowledge" that way. So it's a bit of a toss-up whether the article isn't in the English line because it's definitely intended to refer to the concept of knowledge as opposed to specific knowledge, or just because it's translating from Japanese (and the translators probably never saw the Greek line and probably wouldn't have been able to read it if they had). The Greek itself is also presumably translated from Japanese, and depending on the quality of the translation may not accurately represent the intent of the writers. As in, the writers are Japanese and decided to put a Greek phrase into their story, so they wrote it in Japanese and asked someone to translate it into Greek.
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May 28, 2021 02:21
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Welp, either I'm missing something obvious, or the game I just finished seemed to have a logic problem... The setup: 4 Gnosia out of 15, no AC Follower or Bug in play. Comet makes an uncontested Doctor claim on D1 and gets tagged Confirmed Human for it. On D2, Remnan and Stella claim as Engineer. As of the start of D4, Comet has tagged sleepers Shigemichi, Stella, and Otome as Gnosia, so there's only one more left alive in the game. At this point, since we know Comet's reports are accurate, the only way Remnan could be Gnosia is if he and Stella were both Gnosia fakeclaiming the same role, but wasn't it stated in the thread earlier that the game's logic doesn't expect non-player Gnosia to ever do this? So Remnan and all his human scans should've become Confirmed Humans too, right?? But there was no prompt for it despite having the command, and several ineffectual days later I ended up getting slept myself despite being one of the scanned humans (and having saved Remnan as the Angel two nights in a row, even). And of course, the postgame report indicated that he was indeed the real engineer all along, so now I'm feeling pretty salty!
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May 28, 2021 05:55
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Zyxyz posted:Welp, either I'm missing something obvious, or the game I just finished seemed to have a logic problem... It's a day 2 claim. The true engineer could have been the night 1 kill. Yes, Gnosia won't double claim and so the player knows it can't be the case, but that's not an hard rule, the hard rule is that the real role will claim if someone fake claims. E: the reason for this is that the player can break the rules, so the game cannot confirm Remnan in this situation because otherwise a Gnosia Cassidy could get themselves tagged as definite human in a similar situation. Omobono fucked around with this message at 06:15 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 06:11
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