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I sincerely apologize for making you confront the fact that you seem to think the only real people are white, male, straight, able-bodied, and cisgendered. My bad.
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Sep 15, 2014 07:19
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LividLiquid posted:I sincerely apologize for making you confront the fact that you seem to think the only real people are white, male, straight, able-bodied, and cisgendered. Apology accepted.
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Sep 15, 2014 07:20
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LividLiquid posted:I sincerely apologize for making you confront the fact that you seem to think the only real people are white, male, straight, able-bodied, and cisgendered. werent you leaving
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Sep 15, 2014 07:20
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LividLiquid posted:I sincerely apologize for making you confront the fact that you seem to think the only real people are white, male, straight, able-bodied, and cisgendered. are you having a meltdown or something where in the thread anyone said that? stop ironicposting already and let this thread follow its natural course of 
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Sep 15, 2014 07:20
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mods plz imbed that shrieking sound effect from silent hill 3 i posted upthread itt, i feel it compliments the discussion
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Sep 15, 2014 07:20
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Another gassed thread to add to my posting history.
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Sep 15, 2014 07:21
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*undecided 1959 man reads LividLiquid's post* he's right. That's exactly how I think. It's time to make a change
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Sep 15, 2014 07:21
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Despite all my rage, I'm still just a gay in a cage.
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Sep 15, 2014 07:22
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Lightanchor posted:*undecided 1959 man reads LividLiquid's post* he's right. That's exactly how I think. It's time to make a change Michael Jackson's Man In The Mirror begins playing
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Sep 15, 2014 07:23
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Don't EVER close thread
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Sep 15, 2014 07:24
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Lightanchor posted:*undecided 1959 man reads LividLiquid's post* he's right. That's exactly how I think. It's time to make a change Don Tacorleone posted:Michael Jackson's Man In The Mirror begins playing
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Sep 15, 2014 07:26
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http://techraptor.net/2014/09/12/interview-daniel-vavra/ Sexism is both over and everywhere, just ask Amy Henning, who was recently forced out of her job "I worked with many women in the past. Two were my bosses. We have several women in our team as well and I hope that they are happy and treated like anyone else. We have a very flat structure, so anyone can ask me or Martin in case they have any problems. We even have two married couples working at Warhorse, and in the past I saw several other marriages of co-workers at other companies. The only thing that I’m interested in when we hire someone is their talent. Nothing else. I can’t speak for other companies, but I really doubt that it’s different in the US or anywhere else. The funny thing is, that when you ask actual female developers like Amy Hennig (of Uncharted fame), they will tell you they never had any problems. But the people who are constantly talking about this issue are journalists and bloggers who have never actually even worked at a gaming company. And the funniest thing is, that when you look at how many women are actually working at those magazines criticizing gaming industry for sexism, you will realize that it’s the same as in gaming companies, 10-20% at most. Polygon has 21 editors and only 5 of them are women. And when you look at their audience it’s 80% men. What a sexist magazine!" "Define industry. There are hundreds of million people playing games, so it’s very likely, that some of them are going to be stupid assholes. But saying that the industry is misogynist, because some idiot wrote something on Twitter is absurd, and I strongly believe that it’s used as a distraction so they don’t have to talk about the real problem here. When you are accused of something, accuse your opponent of something much worse. When somebody writes hysterical, aggressive, manipulative articles calling people ‘basement neckbeard troll scum’, he should know what’s gonna come. I was attacked on the Internet many, many times, because I often tend to say stuff people don’t like, but I never ever had a need to whine about it in a magazine and play a victim. When stuff gets serious and somebody really is doing some ugly poo poo, the best thing you can do is call the police and not tweet about it. And there is also another very important thing. A large sum of gamers are teenage boys, who kinda naturally tend to do stupid things and are often quick on conclusions and insults. So no, the industry is not misogynist. Stupid people are misogynist." "I don’t think that there is one goal. It’s just a lot of people which are not happy with the state of gaming journalism. So I am going to talk about my personal motives. It took me two years to start a company. We almost went bankrupt several times. I think that what we are doing is really something no one has done before, and we are really trying to do it as well as we can – a realistic, historically accurate depiction of medieval Europe with a mature story. And then we are called racist because there are no people of color in our medieval Bohemia world, because there are biblical illuminations in our country with Queen of Sheba (who happened to live in Africa 2000 years before our game). And on top of that we were called sexist, because we had a stretch goal to add playable female character into our game. As if it was costless to write and implement a whole new questline into the game. All this when the game is in an early stage of development, and they don’t have a clue about the actual story. Do you think that anyone would want to be involved in such absurd discussions during a campaign on which his existence as a studio depends? This happened to many developers. Assassin’s Creed had 5 different articles about its lack of a female character on the front page of an industry website in one day. Five! Next to each other. And we can continue: the Far Cry 4 cover “scandal,” Stanley Parabble was accused of racism, Wildstar was accused of sexism, God of War, Hotline Miami, Bioshock, Divinity Original Sin, Witcher… Nobody ever dares to argue or protect his art, because it would mean instant accusation of misogyny/racism/homophobia/sexism… And then you realize that the people who are accusing others everyday have terrible conflicts of interests and very weird ethics. The pot calling the kettle black." "I don’t know and I don’t care. The biggest problem we have is, that there is a group of people that think they know what’s right and what’s wrong and that they have a mission to make the world a better place and protect the oppressed by any means. They don’t even care what the “oppressed” people think. They censor any feedback they don’t like. They try to censor Twitter. They think that they are better than the rest. It’s funny that they are absolutely unable to have any discussion or provide solid arguments. Have you ever seen any of them in direct confrontation with their opponents? I guess you didn’t, because they only know how to bark at others from behind the fence and then how to play victims when somebody barks back. And they will never be happy. If you don’t have a gay character in your game, you are homophobic, if you do have gay character in your game, you are homophobic, because they don’t like the character. If women in your game look good, you are sexist, if they look bad, you are sexist, if you can fight with them, you are misogynistic, if you can’t fight with them, you are using them as objects, if you don’t have any women, because there is no correct way how to have them, you are misogynistic. It’s a witch hunt and it’s affecting my artistic freedom." "When you look at the moral standards of some of those people. When you see them calling respected people with different opinions “Faded crackheads, shitlords and misogynistic basement neckbeards”. When you see that one of the biggest gaming sites (Polygon) has a blacklist of people they don’t like to hear from, what would you expect? Many people also don’t go deep into the issue and they make an opinion just based on the hysteric reaction to anonymous threats, while the whole thing is about something absolutely different. Yes I do think that some of the journalist will not like me and our game. I believe that some people may start thinking that I support people who hate women even though I absolutely do not. I may lose some friends. But I think that fighting for freedom of speech and artistic freedom is very important. And I think that some of journalists just crossed the line and somebody should say that. Leigh Alexander, who writes for several mainstream magazines, has a PR agency at the same time while she is an editor at Gamasutra and threatens people that “She is a megaphone that could destroy them” and says that Adam Baldwin is a “washed up crackhead”. WTF is that? How could she still have a job? And that same person is teaching us about ethics and writing articles about childish misogynistic basement trolls? Give me a break!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLCEUpIg8rE
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Sep 15, 2014 07:33
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LividLiquid posted:I'm happily married LividLiquid posted:I do have sex with men, yes. Your point? LividLiquid posted:I will spend the rest of my life yelling at other men about how they treat women, and I will never, ever feel bad about that. LividLiquid posted:I've been funny for a living. It's not what I'm doing in this particular moment, because this isn't funny, but yes. I have been paid, in the past, to write things to make people laugh. Anthony?
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Sep 15, 2014 07:42
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I'm way gayer than that other guy and I demand that there be less - if not no - women in video games because they're taking spots where sexy man characters could be, for me to look at and adore with love in my heart.
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Sep 15, 2014 07:46
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Cardboard Box A posted:http://techraptor.net/2014/09/12/interview-daniel-vavra/ Hennig had another job working on her dream project in like five minutes because she's one of the top talents in the industry and was in demand the second she left Naughty Dog, so uh I'm not sure what your point is there.  (Is it even confirmed that she was forced out? I heard Druckmann led a coup or some poo poo but that seemed like crazy rumormongering)
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Sep 15, 2014 07:46
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Ruddha posted:I'm way gayer than that other guy and I demand that there be less - if not no - women in video games because they're taking spots where sexy man characters could be, for me to look at and adore with love in my heart. counterpoint: video game men are all dutch bricks with flippy brunet wigs on one end
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Sep 15, 2014 07:49
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Lightanchor posted:Anthony? nah he wasnt getting laid from dudes either
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Sep 15, 2014 07:52
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Hey Ash That's Problematic
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Sep 15, 2014 07:55
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http://www.zenofdesign.com/my-artistic-freedom-is-fine-thank-you/ There is a movement afoot in the universe that insists that #gamergate is ALL FOR THE DEVELOPERS. All for me and my ilk! Protecting our freedom of speech! Trying to save the games! Which is a pretty ballsy stance, considering the movement was born in the relentless and ongoing harassment and attempt to silence a game developer. Still, here’s a sample of people telling me that this is all to SAVE MY ARTISTIC FREEDOM! @ZenOfDesign @MSamenfink @sanc @femfreq Im not freaking out Im complaining that some people think they can pressure devs/industry to make’em — Steel Thunder (@SteelThunder13) September 12, 2014 @ZenOfDesign yes. but each year, from what I’ve noticed, is that all the violence is getting scaled back, which limits artistic freedom. 1/2 — HunterGriff (@squareandweird) September 13, 2014 @RicChivo@ZenOfDesign and consider one person with 20 thousand followers can change a game that only that one person actually cares about — Eliah Ryan (@Eliah_R) September 12, 2014 @therealescotia @DanielVavra @Eliah_R @ZenOfDesign The anti-#GamerGate side wants the type of games they want to the exclusion of all else. — Hans Schumacher (@LunarArchivist) September 13, 2014 This is freakin’ ADORABLE. Really. I mean, it’s really precious. Now please stop it. Because it’s embarrassingly misguided about how the industry ACTUALLY works. We really don’t need your help here. And if it looks like this, we’d rather not have it. So please stop using the artistic freedom of devs as the reason for your crusade. Why? 1. Many devs resent being associated with #gamergate because of it’s unquestionably foul roots. And I’m one of them. Many devs, particularly female devs, find #GamerGate to be the fruit of a poisonous tree, that tree being the violent and often terrifying crusade against some developers, journalists and academics, the majority of whom happen to be women. You push away devs when you claim to speak for them all as long as the cause bears this name. 2. No one is trying to take away your games. The most important thing for games is that it is recognized as speech and as an art form, so that it maintains legal protection in the form of freedom of speech. As long as we are not talking about censorship of game creators (and most academics reject censorship, they value speech), then I can make whatever kind of game I want, and people are allowed to have and voice whatever opinions they want about it. 3. It is an attempt to silence a different world view. I keep hearing the word ‘corruption’ used to describe media outlets and reporters who have progressive (‘SJW’) views on games and game development. It’s not corruption. It’s a different point of view. Lord knows, we have shittons of web sites out there that just cut and paste whatever canned talking points a developer hands out at E3 with appropriate uses of the word ‘Awesome’ and ‘Extreme’ sprinkled in for good measure. None of this really makes the games industry better, or the artists creating it challenge themselves or their work more. 4. We can speak for ourselves – with our games. I know, some developers like to pout that they can’t say whatever they want without earning the ire of the SJW police. What a joke. WE HAVE THE LOUDEST VOICES IN THE ROOM. And that’s the game itself. Anita Sarkeesian earned $150K from almost 7000 people. This is an impressive amount of money, the highest I’ve seen for a project like this, and debunks the idea that only a tiny fringe is interested in her cause. That being said, Destiny cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make and market, and has reached hundreds of thousands, if not millions of players. Same for GTA 5. We have the megaphone. Now, it’s true that individual developers might not necessarily be well-advised to go off and spout off whatever opinion that comes to mind. However, this is usually less about reasons of press than it is about employment. During GamerGate, I’ve seen more than one ‘aspiring game dev’ make what can only be described as career-limiting comments about women, the industry, or other devs in their twitter feed. It turns out, it’s no fun to work in the pressure cooker that is the games industry when you work with an rear end in a top hat. 5. The media is a relatively unimportant voice in the modern creation process. A developer has a million voices guiding him through video game creation. His boss. His bosses boss. His teammates, who want to just make a WoW/LoL/Clash of Clans clone. The producer and project manager trying to get it out the door. The marketing guy who wants to sneak ‘farmville’ into the game. The publisher who will withhold paychecks to the developer if ludicrous demands aren’t met. The license holder, who very often doesn’t seem to know his own license. The home office who ignores the game for months at a time only to turn the Eye of Sauron on you at the worst possible time. The MTX department, who wants to pick up the customer and shake him for loose change. The ESRB, whose attitudes on decapitations seem to change from game to game. The Apple/Sony/Xbox certification process. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Sure, we listen to outside voices. The fans! In today’s Internet, companies can and do build forums where they can build very direct relationships with their fans, and get a very real sense of what is important to the actual community building their game. The press might report a point of view ragging on our game, but if our playerbase doesn’t care, most of the time, we don’t either. Sure, the press mentioned same-gender romances as missing on SWTOR, but they moved on pretty much immediately to other games and stories. The reason we added them was because the community literally kept a thread alive on the topic for – geez, a year? Oh, also, the fans were right. That’s not to say that we don’t care about the press entirely! We care hugely! About the Metacritic score! This is the single most important page of media a game has after launch day, and which aggregates game scores from across the spectrum. Purists will be pleased to know that having incredible violence, possible hooker beatings and gratuitious boobage doesn’t seem to keep great games from getting great scores. What matters is making a great game. 6. Sex and Violence isn’t going anywhere. Media criticism of Television and Film has existed for literally decades. Has it disappeared? No! In fact, these genres push the boundaries farther than ever before! Dirty not-so-secret secret: sex sells, and there will always be artists willing to reach for those audiences, many trying desperately outdo anyone whose come before (note: your hostile liberal SJW media gave Dragon’s Crown a respectable 82). These people may alienate a potential audience, but especially if you’re a small indy, you may have to pick and narrowly focus on one audience anyway! (Small budget teams can’t please everyone) And controversy sells! The Witcher is a great series, but it would have had trouble getting any attention from the press if not for the ‘collecting bedmates‘ minigame in the first installment. Lesbian sex got Mass Effect onto Fox News - you think a few people didn’t pick up boxes when that happened? GTA has always embraced controversy. They’ve only turned that into being one of the biggest game franchises in the world. 7. It’s insulting to the artists. Do you think Will Wright needs protecting? Sid Meier? David Jaffe? Raph Koster? No. They need input. And they should have the freedom to take input from wherever the hell they want. If we don’t get input, we make the same derivative crap over and over again. Do you think you’re qualified where to tell these people where they should seek this input? And criticism is fine. Criticism is CONSTANT in the games industry, from every friggin’ direction you can imagine. In fact, if you want to break into the games industry, my primary advice to you is (a) make stuff and (b) get criticized. Junior designers assume that they’re always right. The ones that become senior designers learn to absorb and synthesize many points of view. Sometimes this means taking someone like Anita Sarkeesian to heart. Sometimes it means saying “We’re making the interactive Porky’s experience here, everything she says is irrelevant here.” I’m a free speech zealot. I believe fiercely that writers, authors, film makers, politicians and journalists should be given a lot of rope to create their art and speak their minds. But I must say, as long as the government isn’t involved censoring the creation and distribution of my games, my artistic freedom is just fine, thank you. Don’t worry about me. Instead, spend that energy worrying about people who would have the audacity to silence disparate world views with harassment and threats of violence, all in the name of free speech. All in the name of saving MY free speech. Nobody is trying to silence me. If they tried, they’d likely fail. I have 20 years experience, confidence in my craft, a large multinational company at my back, and about 20 years experience writing and speaking about game design. But there are a lot of people who are trying to silence critics, academics and journalists with more progressive (“SJW”) views on games, because they aren’t ‘real’ gamers, or because what they want would ‘ruin’ games. Meanwhile, increases in raw hardware power means that awesome boob physics is more realistic and impressive than ever before. More diverse voices will lead to better, more diverse and more interesting games. And at the end of the day, isn’t that all any of us really cares about? VJeff posted:Hennig had another job working on her dream project in like five minutes because she's one of the top talents in the industry and was in demand the second she left Naughty Dog, so uh I'm not sure what your point is there. "Sources claim Hennig was “forced out” by The Last of Us’ Neil Druckmann and Bruce Straley, and explained that Uncharted may now come under their control." Yes all those people just decided to up and leave ND voluntarily, nothing weird going on there, nope. We may never know exactly what went on but clearly something bad was going on, and it wasn't a Crytek "people aren't getting paid" situation either. Yeah Amy's got another job but it's weird to point to her as someone having no trouble in the game industry. Assepoester fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 07:58
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People getting fired and leaving en masse from developers is standard for the games industry as a whole there's no reason to suspect sexism unless you have good reason.
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Sep 15, 2014 08:03
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It sounds more like Druckmann and Staley used the clout they gained from Last of Us going supernova to force out the old guard and make themselves Naughtiest of the Dogs rather than any gender-related foul play went down, though. I mean, I do get what you're saying, but considering how quickly Hennig landed on her feet and how she's always been consistent in saying that her gender has never held her back in this industry (certainly didn't hurt her getting the job at Visceral), it seems fair to mention her. She's a top end talent in the industry and with the exception of the dudes who made The Road But With Mushrooms, it seems like she's always been treated that way. natetimm posted:People getting fired and leaving en masse from developers is standard for the games industry as a whole there's no reason to suspect sexism unless you have good reason. It was pretty weird with Naughty Dog though because it was all senior personnel right smack in the loving development of Uncharted 4.
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Sep 15, 2014 08:13
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am i really supposed to just BELIEVE anything and everything women say?
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Sep 15, 2014 08:25
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Varva has become self-aware natetimm posted:People getting fired and leaving en masse from developers is standard for the games industry as a whole there's no reason to suspect sexism unless you have good reason. VJeff posted:It sounds more like Druckmann and Staley used the clout they gained from Last of Us going supernova to force out the old guard and make themselves Naughtiest of the Dogs rather than any gender-related foul play went down, though. Uncle Wemus posted:am i really supposed to just BELIEVE anything and everything women say?  Assepoester fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 08:25
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LividLiquid posted:I sincerely apologize for making you confront the fact that you seem to think the only real people are white, male, straight, able-bodied, and cisgendered. shut the gently caress up god drat
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Sep 15, 2014 08:29
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Cardboard Box A posted:Varva has become self-aware I get what you're saying but this is really kind of a pedantic point to make and nobody with a working brain has claimed that SEXISM IS OVER because Amy Hennig exists and is employed. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 08:31
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LividLiquid posted:Again, your go-to argument is to mock rape victims. Rape FTW
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Sep 15, 2014 08:31
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boom boom boom fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 08:46
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boom boom boom fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Oct 7, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 08:48
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:I get what you're saying but this is really kind of a pedantic point to make and nobody with a working brain has claimed that SEXISM IS OVER because Amy Hennig exists and is employed.
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Sep 15, 2014 09:16
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He was basically just repeating what Hennig herself has said every time she's asked about her gender. Personally, it's kinda funny to me how Hennig has been in games since 95 and has always said the same things about herself and has worked on several incredibly critically acclaimed series, but it seemed like nobody really gave two shits about her until she got forced out of Naughty Dog this year. But if it gets more people to notice a good game designer who's gonna make a good game (if EA doesn't stick their dick in it), then cool.
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Sep 15, 2014 09:58
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lol at LividLiquid's existence just, lol literally lol, just lol if you unironically I'm literally rofling when I see people who unironically, I can't even describe... when people 're gay. I'm like, lol just lol, what're you doing fag, hosed up if true, but unironically there's no chance of that. What faggy fag does this?
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Sep 15, 2014 10:04
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LividLiquid posted:Making fun of sexual assault victims makes you right. Keep going, you loving dickhead. lol get the gently caress out you stupid serious idiot
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Sep 15, 2014 11:27
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Games journalism has sucked for years. Bunch of betas writing about games because they can't make games. Even the lovely ones like human being quest. Everyone please get ebola and die.
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Sep 15, 2014 11:42
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MVP posted:Games journalism has sucked for years. someone earlier floated the idea of people who 'aspire' to be games journalists out there and I want to hear more from these people because that is like the very saddest dream there is
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Sep 15, 2014 11:51
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aliens colonial marines was the last game i played. never again. never forget. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J8SzBhjqaQ
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Sep 15, 2014 11:51
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I can understand how if you knew literally nothing of the work or culture involved you could want to grow up to make videogames, they seem like they could be fun until you realize that behind every neat little rocketship or whatever lies a 100-hour workweek grinding at something a focus group dictated in a company that views the in-office ballpit as a valid substitute for health insurance, but games journalism
Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 11:56
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Cardboard Box A posted:http://www.zenofdesign.com/my-artistic-freedom-is-fine-thank-you/ Tl;dr: My artistic freedom is fine because I only make politically correct kosher non-blasphemous wholesome games. Anyone whining about artistic freedom is probably a basement dwelling misogynistic manbaby. The most radical thing you can do is listen and believe the manbabies.
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Sep 15, 2014 12:00
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Videogames are great, just don't pay any attention to anyone involved with them in any capacity. Except Hideo Kojima that guy is pretty amazing to watch.
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Sep 15, 2014 12:07
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:I can understand how if you knew literally nothing of the work or culture involved you could want to grow up to make videogames, they seem like they could be fun until you realize that behind every neat little rocketship or whatever lies a 100-hour workweek grinding at something a focus group dictated in a company that views the in-office ballpit as a valid substitute for health insurance, but games journalism Unless you're one of the laid off lovely journalists who goes to work on lovely spin-off Sims games writing lovely dialogue and draining a company's resources (Jeff Green). Or another lovely out of work games journalist who gets hired by a game company, helps make a lovely game, then gets fired again (Anthony Gallegos, Daylight) Games journalists don't know poo poo and they hate themselves for it. But I digress, Gamergate: Sex-starved faggots get scammed by bitches. Tubgirl Cosplay posted:someone earlier floated the idea of people who 'aspire' to be games journalists out there and I want to hear more from these people because that is like the very saddest dream there is Yeah it sounds awesome because games journalist contribute nothing and get paid for it. MVP fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 12:09
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I wonder what Hideo Kojima thinks of Zoe Quinn and the state of Games Journalism. He probably doesn't give a poo poo.
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Sep 15, 2014 12:11
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